JavaScript is required to use Bungie.net

#feedback

Edited by Lil Durk: 12/27/2015 2:41:15 AM
96

An in-depth breakdown of what Jon W. means when he says the 0.04% buff is "situational."

[b]The discussion on the notorious "auto rifle patch typo" begins at 2:53.[/b] Warning: video contains profanity. For the purpose of this discussion, I have selected three specific quotes from Planet Destiny and Jon Weisnewski, listed below. [b]4:04-4:21[/b] [b]PLANET DESTINY:[/b] "[i]So [I'd] be curious to know, sort of, how those numbers actually play out. If we're getting, you know, a fraction of a percentage on any one bullet, you're [b]probably not going to see a whole number change[/b], but in a pvp, competitive environment, um, [b]is that .04(%)--is that actually going to give me a faster time to kill?[/b][/i] [b]4:21-4:23[/b] [b]JON W:[/b][i] "Uh, it's depends; it's situational."[/i] [i]Is[/i] it? In which "situation" will a 0.04% damage increase lower the time to kill (TTK) of a weapon? Mathematically, it would appear that this statement is false, within the parameters of Destiny pvp. I'll explain why below. [b]4:33-4:42[/b] [b]JON W:[/b][i] "Auto rifles are VERY sensitive to [b]small changes[/b], and that's because you're shooting [b]a lot of rounds[/b] in a very short time frame."[/i] In this case, the "small change" in question is the 0.04% buff. Jon claims auto rifles are sensitive, but this change is [i]exceedingly[/i] small--it's absolutely miniscule in nature. He goes on to say the reason they are so heavily affected is because you are shooting "a lot" of rounds. But just how many rounds would one have to shoot in order to actually see a difference in TTK? In the case of the highest ROF/lowest impact auto rifles, precision damage is 16, within the effective range of the weapon. After applying the 0.04% buff, the new precision damage is 16.0064. Now, in order to decrease TTK, the number of bullets needed to kill would have to decrease by at least 1. On a normal guardian with approximately 200 health, the [i]Necrochasm[/i] would require 13 headshots to kill, if precision damage was set to 16. (16 × 13 = 208) If we wanted the Necrochasm to kill a 200 health guardian in [i]12[/i] bullets, instead of 13, we would need to increase the precision damage to 17. (17 × 12 = 204) However, we have a problem...the [i]new, post-patch[/i] Necrochasm only does 16.0064 precision damage, not 17. So what does this mean? It means that a 0.04% damage increase would, in fact, [i]not[/i] lower the TTK a 200 (approx.) health guardian. In order to actually [i]see[/i] a difference in TTK (one less bullet required to kill), the target would require much more health than 200. [b]The guardian's health would have to be approximately 40,000![/b] BEFORE 0.04% increase 40,000 health ÷ 16 = 2,500 headshots AFTER 0.04% increase 40,000 health ÷ 16.0064 =2,499.0003998401 or 2,499 headshots [b][u]CONCLUSION[/u][/b] Jon Weisnewski is claiming that auto rifles were intentionally buffed by less than half of a TENTH of a percent. Just so you can imagine how small that is, imagine breaking a dollar into 100 pennies, with each penny representing 1% of the dollar. Now take each penny and cut it into 10 pieces (1,000 pieces). Now cut each one of [i]those[/i] pieces into 10 more pieces (10,000 pieces). Now take FOUR of these, and you now have 4/10,000 or 1/2,500 or "0.04%" of the pieces needed to equal the original dollar you started with. That's how much Jon W. is claiming they wanted to buff *max ROF* auto rifles by. And now, I am left with one question for you, Bungie. Now that I've shown you the mathematics, and proven that [b]there is currently no way that the 0.04% buff could possibly decrease the TTK a guardian in Destiny[/b], what is your response? Would you care to elaborate on Jon's assertion that the decrease in TTK is "situational?" Could you provide us with an example in which we could actually [i]see[/i] the difference on-screen? [b]To the members of the Destiny community who took the time to read this, thank you. As always, I appreciate your comments and feedback. Positive critiques are always welcome![/b] -Dom

Posting in language:

 

Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

View Entire Topic
  • Edited by gallp13: 12/28/2015 9:51:30 PM
    [b]TL:DR[/b] : Interesting it would appear that rate of bullet flare is HIGHLY leveraged to damage - this one is very much for the nerds like me :) First and foremost thanks to Dom for this thread - this area is one of particular interest to your humble respondent. Let's assume for a moment Newsk and Merrill are [b]not[/b] lying for their own nefarious fun. Who knows they may be but ..... what if they aren't .... then the following may explain matters and raise some very interesting opportunities. 1. Range is now an independent variable and so can be set aside (Wiesnewski Crucible Radio 5 Oct 2015) 2. Each weapon class has an initial starting cone that determines bullet spread (Wiesnewski Crucible Radio 5 Oct 2015) 3. The initial cone flares once the player starts to fire. The degree and rate of flare is effected by; 3.1 weapon fire rate; 3.2 in autos the number of continuous bullets a player fires - burst fire keeps flare tight; and 3.3 base damage - if SM and JW are to be believed then flare is [b]materially[/b] effected by small movements in base damage. This means that while a 0.04% increase in base damage means nothing to min theoretical TTK without taking into account the effects of cone flare (see optional example below), it would seem that cone flare is inversely proportional to damage x a [b]very large[/b] multiplier if Sage and Newsk are speaking truthfully. If this is so the implications are very interesting indeed. This makes a lot of sense when you consider the logic underpinning a use of a damage cone that flares in both quantum and by rate based on [b]both[/b] fire rate and player technique. It reinforces the absolute importance of control burst firing with autos and in particular high RoF autos. It's also interesting if you listen to Newsk's comments on Crucible Radio 5th Oct 2015 as these effects appear to come into play on all weapon classes and in particular hand cannons. The implications for play style and weapon selection are far reaching indeed. One is temped to share some theoretical (and very much guessed-imated) math on opening cone states and the differential equations that may determine cone flare rate but this would be boring (nerd alert!). Then again the conspiracy theorists could be right. Sage and Newski cocked up with a typo and then apologised for the cock up but creating and even bigger cock up hoping that folks lacked the rudimentary math skills to multiply, divide and convert percentage to fractions ..... Hmmmm. [b]Optional Example[/b] Now take a high RoF weapon like the Necrocasm. [b]Pre Patch[/b] Crit : 17 damage units per bullet Body : 14 damage units per bullet Rate of Fire : 900 bullet per minute Target dies at 200 damage units in the source code (cf Sage Merrill 9 Dec 2015 Crucible Pod Cast) Thus dead at : 11.76471 successive crits TTK 0.78431s or; 14.28571 successive body TTK 0.95238s Summary 12 successive bullets to the head kills in 0.8s 14 successive bullets to the body kills in 0.9s [b]Post Patch[/b] Change : 0.04% increase in base damage Crit : 17.0068 damage units per bullet Body : 14.0057 damage units per bullet Thus dead at : 11.76000 successive crits TTK 0.78400s or; 14.27990 successive body TTK 0.95199s Summary 12 successive bullets to the head kills is 0.8s 14 successive bullets to the head kills in 0.9s [b]QED[/b] - or is it ? EDIT : Crucible Radio interview with Newsk and Sage 28 Dec all but confirmed this hypothesis. Looks like OP has his answer !

    Posting in language:

     

    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

    1 Reply
    You are not allowed to view this content.
    ;
    preload icon
    preload icon
    preload icon