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Edited by Major Bones: 11/1/2014 5:05:14 PM
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Exotic weapon balance (Thorn, Bad Juju, Hard Light, SUROS Regime)

Not only have there been dozens of videos and posts on the subject but Bungie themselves have acknowledged that some Exotic weapons are under performing and others are VASTLY over performing. While watching Datto's video (linked) I had a sudden flash of insight as to what was really wrong with these weapons (insight being I had an idea, that's all). [b][u]TLDR: SCROLL TO THE BOTTOM. I've bolded and underlined it for those to lazy to read.[/u][/b] I'll start with the under performers: Thorn and Bad Juju. [b][u]Thorn:[/u][/b] Thorn is (arguably) the most difficult of the exotic bounties to obtain and when you actually finish it, it's a huge let down. The benefit from the weapon is *supposed* to come from its DoT mechanic which certainly helps in PvP but is woefully lacking in PvE content and even held back in PvP because of the ridiculously small magazine and ludicrous reload times. So, how to fix... Well, the draw of Thorn (and what sets it apart) IS the DoT. Why not make that the perk that makes it viable? Currently, Mark of the Devourer causes bullets to over-penetrate and place a DoT on the target. I propose to REMOVE the over-penetration part (let's be honest did you even notice it?) and instead add a perk that increases reload speed by 3x WHILE your DoT is active on a target. This will reward skillful use and timing in PvP because you'll need to reload BEFORE your target dies in order to receive the buff. PvE will benefit because bosses typically live through a full magazine (lol) and so you can essentially keep the buff going throughout the fight. Couple this new change with a magazine increase to 8 (from 6) and (like Datto mentions) the ability to stack the DoT (PvE ONLY!!!!!) up to three times and this will become a very useful weapon overnight without (further) breaking Crucible. Thorn would become a viable option for sustained Boss damage, but not be broken for all forms of combat (ie. add clear). [b][u]Bad Juju:[/u][/b] Ah, Bad Juju.... what can we say about you? Such a cool weapon utterly forgotten by the Guardians of today. The problem with Bad Juju is very simple. It's String of Curses perk only activates on kills that YOU make. Thus, in PvE group settings, where you will most likely never get a killing blow due to the nature of pulse rifles currently. The perk never activates and your weapon is useless. In PvP, it's only useful if you CAN get a killing blow, and the only way to do that with this weapon it seems is to have your team mates blasting your opponent with you and hope they don't get the killing blow first. So the problem is that Bad Juju is just not a killing weapon. However, I don't think Bad Juju SHOULD be a killing blow weapon, I think it's an amazing support gun in both PvE and PvP with one problem. How to fix? Simple. Activate String of Curses on assists as well as kills. PvP already counts assists towards Grimoire cards and bounties and such so it's perfectly reasonable. Having this perk activate on assists will make this a very viable support weapon in Crucible (for those who actually play with the team instead of lone wolfing it). PvE would have this weapon become especially suited for add clear (think Thrall rushes...). It's true that this change alone won't make this a god mode weapon in all aspects. But exotics don't need to be good in EVERY aspect of the game, they should excel in one, and be average in others. Couple this with some possible slight tweaking of coefficients and I think this would be a desirable weapon for the team oriented player. Now for the over performing.... [b][u]SUROS:[/u][/b] We all remember the day it happened. Xur offered up SUROS in his wares and overnight, Crucible became unbearable. My argument here will be two fold. First, SUROS deserves a nerf. Second, Hard Light NEEDS a buff. I'll elaborate... The problem with SUROS is that the weapon can be made to fire SO stable and SO accurate and hit SO hard, that it becomes essentially an auto scout rifle, only better. The root of this problem is the "Focused Fire" perk. Seemingly innocuous by itself, the coupling of this perk with the ALREADY good damage, stability, range, and accuracy of this weapon makes for a disgustingly imbalanced weapon in PvP. Conversely, the exotic auto rifle Hard Light has pitiful accuracy, range, damage, and stability. It is essentially a sub-machine gun. It does not do enough damage to warrant its crazy instability. Getting critical hits (even with CQB Ballistics) is rare and holds the weapons potential back. This can be argued, but I personally think Hard Light is the coolest sounding weapon in the entire game. I WANT TO LOVE THIS WEAPON! However, Bungie has made this exceedingly difficult with it's current stats. There is ZERO choice between SUROS Regime and Hard Light and anyone who would choose the latter over the former is just plain crazy and should probably go back to Call of Duty. So... how to fix? Simple. We need a solution that will bring SUROS' stats back in line and bring Hard Lights up to that line. Ironically, both can be solved with one perk swap. The Focused Fire perk is too good on SUROS and Hard Light is no good without it. So swap it. Bring the Focused Fire perk to Hard Light in place of Volatile Light and put the over penetration onto SUROS. Over penetration rounds are meh at best and highly situational. By swapping these two perks they will tone down the craziness of SUROS while making Hard Light a legitimate choice at the same time. The accuracy and stability gain on Hard Light will be offest by it's relatively low damage per shot, even with the damage boost from the perk. We can all agree that something must be done. Maybe these aren't the best solutions, but they're not the worst I've heard. Ideally, this will get Bungie guys thinking in the right direction. [b][u]TLDR:[/u] Make the Thorn DoT increase reload speed by 3x while its on a target, couple with increased magazine from 6 to 8, and PvE ONLY DoT stacking to 3x. Make Sting of Curses on Bad Juju activate on assists as well as kills. Couple with a slight stability boost possibly. Swap the Focused Fire perk from SUROS with the Volatile light perk on Hard Light.[/b]

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  • *Update* As of the most recent patches/modification's Thorn now has superior long range, Ammunition, and DOT damage and has effectively replaced the Regime as THE Crucible weapon of choice. ALL Auto Rifles on the other hand have become useless (for the most part, not Sure if the Suros has been significantly affected, but my Hard light only does 20 damage on a head-shot, the same as my Do Gooder and most likely ALL other AR's), my Bad Juju (with 24 mag size) is an Absolute BEAST in PvE, especially when i combine it with my Obsidian Mind, Nova Bombs from the Start of Crota Raid all the way to the Bridge!! lol, however i haven't used it in the crucible since the 1.1.1 patch, however i have seen others use it and Red Death to slaughter me in the Crucible seems Bungie took the Pulse Rifle Buffs to the right spot, but over did it on the AR NERF's.

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  • Finally just buffed my suros and like any warm blooded American stay the heck away from my guns. That's my business.

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    • Hard light should get an impact and stability boost, and i also think it should get Arc Damage. That would bring the gun into its own.

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      • Thorn might be the hardest exotic period to get. The exotics that randomly drop shouldn't count. For example I got Suros by entering a Control match with just over one minute left in the match.

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        • Edited by Mouth: 11/26/2014 2:30:28 AM
          The thing about thorn is that you hit the enemy, the dot clock starts counting down but it doesn't reset when you hit the enemy again. The clock resets after the first hit's DOT is finished and you hit it once more after that and then the clock resets. I feel that every time you hit an enemy with mark of the devourer the DOT clock should reset (test it and you'll find that I'm right) [spoiler]some of you probably don't know what I mean by clock, the clock is how many seconds something lasts. In this case thorns DOT effect. Let's say it lasts for 6 seconds, when you get that first hit in the clock starts and you get those 6 seconds of extra damage. But when you hit it again let's say 2 seconds after the first hit, the clock will still be at 4 seconds counting down. Instead of resetting and giving you 6 seconds again. You have to wait those 6 seconds before you can inflict the effect again and I don't know if this is intentional or not[/spoiler]

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          • Their method of making sub machine guns in this game is so flawed imo. High rof does not make up for pitiful impact *and* range. Impact should be raised on them while keeping low range, that way they're not sniping with rapid fire weapons since the damage fall off should be extreme. Make them brutal in cqb, people might use them then. I include both Hard light and Bad Juju in the sub machine gun category. Juju may need it's one range increasing perk removed, but that gun drives me nuts anyway since you have to choose between range and stability :/

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            • Hip fire perk that's on juju is useless in my opinion

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              • Edited by ZeroCell: 12/16/2014 9:58:13 PM
                No to the hard light one. You can't get rid of it's unique perk. Get rid of glass half full and give it focused fire instead. I see this is from before the buff so I won't say anything about the others, but no to the hard light idea.

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              • And I want sliced onions, Jalapeno with extra cheese. Also a choco cookie. Thats how I like it, please follow instructions. <Generous gratuity if see a lil a$$ accidentally> Why isn't this happening. -blam!- me, its not online order made my way after I paid?.. (Thats how I like it, please follow instructions. ) Oh, its a videogame. My bad.

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              • This is pre exotic update

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              • imo Thorn is awesome after the last buff. Increase to mag size and buffed the DoT. They also increased the base reload speed. No changes needed there. I agree on Bad JuJu that it needs another buff. But it actually needs to be made to all pulse rifles in general. They don't hit hard enough. I think they should keep the mag sizes small but increase impact, and give a better bonus for crit hits. Lastly, Suros does not need a nerf. I mean really? They brought the damage down already for body shots and crit hits. But it should still be higher than others because it's an Exotic. That's the point.

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                • Suros is perfect just as it is. Do not nerf or buff. Agree on thorn and bad juju.

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                  • Thorn seems fine as it is. Bad juju needs a slight impact buff bad by slight I mean .5 - 1 bar (I believe a full stat bar is 10)

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                  • String of Curses on assists would not be fair. The community would call for an immediate nerf. [i]Dont[/i] touch my gun.

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                    • You can't nerf Suros without nerfing shadow price and grim citizen III too cuz they're all pretty much the same gun if they lower the regimes stability and range.

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                      • SUROS performs just like a real assault-rifle. I'm estimating ranges in the game but, out to 3 hundred meters it is deadly and accurate. Past this distance and, accuracy and stopping power are reduced. Just like real life. What about giving it a perk that increases range and stability but, WHILE CROUCHED?

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                        • I used to love the thorn before the nerf! I was king of crucible! That and PR were my babies! But since the nerf I feel like I have list my connection with the thorn. It saddens me so.

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                        • My red death could use a buff..

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                          • Horrid bad juju suggestion. It simplyy needs a power boost. Impact of whatever id the proper term

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                          • I agree with most, but not putting focused fire on hard light. I hate focused fire perk and I won't use anything with it.

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                          • Hardlight works fine for me both in the Crucible and in PvE.

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                          • You forgot the vex

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                            • No OP I want the magazine to go up to at least 12. Magazine size is so so important for handcannons.

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                            • The dot on thorn should be put back up to where it was. It also needs some more impact, reload speed and an upped magazine size

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                            • I'm all for buffing and nerfing the right weapons but honestly these nerfs should be just PVP side only, a weapon nerfed for PVP and PVE just makes it almost unusable in PVE. Exotics are meant to be powerful in PVE, its why we worked our asses off to acquire them

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