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10/18/2014 7:38:53 AM
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Atheon Teleport Mechanics Update Feedback
I have not complained about any changes to this game.
- Loot Cave - okay, patch it (and you gave us a fun Easter Egg at that).
- Gun nerfs/buffs - you guys know best, you can watch how we play and address what's needed to provide multiple alternatives with weapon selection in PVP.
- Templar column - Even though I backed this as a "strategy", I only tried to help *one* group that insisted on it and my group has always had dedicated roles in that fight. We played the ground game and continue to do so, we're better and faster at it.
- Atheon "baby bumpers" - Yes, please. They're not necessary when you have a good team who play well together and know roles that we have unanimously determined by preference and vote. I didn't support the bug that broke him.
- Atheon's teleport behavior? - Please, Bungie, please. Most successful Raid teams have found that different members are better at different roles. This is a TEAM event. I, for one, am the dedicated Relic-holder for that fight. We've watched gameplay mechanics, we developed a system, a strategy, to break our group into two. Portal team does what needs to be done in the portals, and Gatekeeper team survives the hordes of suicidal Harpies, opens the necessary gate, and generally does the most damage to Atheon once Portal team is out, because we're busy getting ready to go back in again.
[b]The Atheon teleport change will break not only our strategy, but most successful teams' strategies.[/b] The fight will be utter chaos. Not everyone plays the same role in a team - that's what makes a TEAM. If we could all perform the same roles, we'd be interchangeable. Why stay together? Our group dynamics are great and we all get along well, but the glitches in Atheon's fight were tough enough to get through without someone raging. The deaths of a single dedicated member alone can make the fight unwinnable.
[b]We are using legitimate strategy there, Bungie.[/b] There is no unfair advantage, no taking advantage of unfair enemy behavior (some predictability is not a bad thing!), we just got our team 100% set this week! Not everyone can be expected to perform the same in a team. We all have strengths and weaknesses and that is part of what brings us together. [b]We fill in each other's gaps in playstyle to complete the group.[/b]
Please rethink this Atheon patch. "Baby bumpers" are great. Make the community fight for their victory! But don't completely trash mechanics that aren't broken. I know six of me could not beat this Raid, nor could six of any other gamer I know. Level playing fields are great, but don't take away our individual strengths.
Sorry for the long post. I have reposted this in the Feedback forum where it belongs, as I've asked others who post in the #destiny category. [b]I've always supported you guys and plan on continuing to... Don't break the Raid, please![/b]
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#feedback
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1 ReplyAgreed. I'm a dedicated defender. I'm the guy who keeps the portals open to bring our other half home, the one who fights tooth and nail to stay alive amidst harpies and Vex hordes. And if you try throwing me in that timestream with the relic, I WILL drag my team down because I am not effective in that role. Don't do this Bungie. Please.
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I completely agree. We beat the raid for the first time last night. Everyone had their roles. It was chaos when a team member died and suddenly someone at random got thrust into a different role than they were prepared for. In that situation the random teleeport is totally justified. I can't imagine the chaos and frustration when that becomes the norm.
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Completely agree. Each week each hotfix degrades my game, this one is the biggest hit of all so far. Why not introduce Raid matchmaking now as your previous points about team building are being blown away by your own update.
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5 RepliesI could not agree more with the original poster. I wrote the following on the Update post, but I fell like it belongs here too: Randomizing Atheon is dumb move in all respects. Look at any team sport or even how video game Raids are done in other games, people are assigned positions they are most suited to in order to succeed. Do you think in Basketball a 7 foot center should bring the ball down the court instead of a PG? No, because that makes no sense, he is suited for rebounding and inside play. Do think a 300 pound lineman should play QB in the NFL? No, clearly not becsuse he is suited for blocking not throwing. A Raid team is no different, certain people are better suited then others to preform certain tasks, and you know what? There is NOTHING wrong with that, in fact it is smart strategy period and it is the way of the world. If you Randomize Atheon you are throwing away all strategy in a game with very little outside of the Raid to begin with. It's one thing to fix a clear bug with the cheap Atheon grenade kills, that is clearly an exploit. However you have NEVER once called Atheon's teleport mechanics a bug before until now, because it never was a bug, it was the way it was meant to be played. Now because of what I can only assume is a brusied ego that so many people have beat your hardest challenge in Destiny's you are going to ruin it by "fixing" a bug and that clearly is not one and thus destroy all strategy in it? Mark my words, you do this and you will see a mass quit of your game. This will happen because you will destroy clans with this move, and on a even more base level you will destroy fun for many of your most dedicated high level players such as myself. It's a bad move all around, but you have not made it yet, listen to your fanbase that paid yiur bills by buying your game and don't do this. Otherwise you risk destroying that fanbase completely.
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I, too think this patch will only make the final fight more frustrating for many players. This weekend me and my close friend decided to try the VOG for the first time. We posted on a clan forum for help and were soon six. There were people from Canada, the UK, and the US. It was a good bunch that communicated well and made Atheon in about four hours. After a break for dinner we tried to beat him. We lost a couple due to the need for sleep, but found replacements that messed well. We had one level 26, a couple level 27's and 28's, and a 29, but we couldn't defeat Atheon. After a couple hours we called it a night. The next day we tried again. Some people were able to continue, but a couple new players were added. Once again it was a good group. Were tried a few different methods, and eventually everyone found their role. This group was all either level 27 or 28, but again were were not able to deal enough damage to defeat the boss. We decided to accept defeat and try again in two weeks after building up our weapons and defense a bit more. My point is that we did what Bungie said we couldn't do: Play the raid with a group of people who only just met. Yes, we didn't complete it, but we quickly became a team even after losing and adding several new players. I'm sure this happens all the time, but suddenly changing the dynamics of the teleporting will kill the chances of most groups like ours. I'm sorry, Bungie. I'm 42 and don't have many friends who play video games. People like me won't be able to participate in your raids if you make them operate the way you seem determined to make them. Can't you leave the normal raid alone and add this patch to the hard mode?
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I personally spent $150 on the ghost edition of this game. I haven't once cheesed Atheon. My first raid of Atheon took over 15hrs as we learned it. We do it weekly now as a dedicated group. We split and go help others raid all week long. I think this week alone I have watched Atheon melt 5+ times and not get loot because I like to help people. This patch suddenly makes me wish to demand a refund or go trade it in at Gamestop and get the new Borderlands or Modern Warfare game and give up on Bungie. The randomly teleporting issue will cause a mass exodus as well as lower future sales. Who will suggest "yes get Destiny... a game that you'll never max level or raid since they screwed the entire raids ending"? I will be expecting a check Bungie. And soon...
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Support
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keep up kicking ass @fragmented hero
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2 RepliesAgreed - the whole point is having a team co-operate to complete the Raid - it defeats that goal of co-operation if every teleport in the final encounter is random. To quote Jonty Barnes in his interview to Eurogamer "It's about the group dynamic. It's not just about a casual dynamic. It's about an understanding of people committed to playing the roles in raids. And preparing. With raids, you don't just jump into them. You've got to prepare before you go in, and decide, what are you doing? What am I doing? Let's all talk about it in orbit. Okay, what role are you going to play? Well, I'm an x Titan, whatever type of Titan I am, and I'm going to be defensive and hold positions. And, have you played this before? Yeah, I found success when I did it this way." The key point in this statement is deciding what role you are going to play. Introducing random teleports negates this - as your role is going to be luck of the draw every time a teleport happens.
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Edited by Augosyx: 10/20/2014 9:53:58 AMI am for one, completely agree with this. Being a raider myself in mostly any MMO games, each person has their respective role to play. You can't switch a role as you like UNLESS you wanted to learn. Sure, learning is part of understanding but that is what a team is. Try sports for example, you can't make someone who's good at offense to go defense or vice versa. Sure, baby bumpers are great, I've watch ppl throw off Atheon but it beats the purpose of beating Atheon fair and square. Trying to keep one alive is a hassle as it is so apply randomness in teleporting guardians is just bullcrap in all honesty. So, Bungie, if you really are listening like you claim to be; please omit that random teleport crap. Don't broke anything that is already broken, instead fix it to become even better. I don't mind the weapon nerf, the baby bumpers, the sniper platform cheese, you guys can do that but not random teleport. It beats the raiding purpose.
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Edited by LostCrusader: 10/19/2014 5:38:09 PMI agree with this post. I too am fine with all the other updates, but this one seems unnecessary and breaks most of the team and individual role aspects of the final encounter. I'll see how it goes once the update is out, but I think the way it is now will be more fun. (Bumpers are still a good idea.)
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I agree. Great post sir.
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AGREE 100%, this post describes my feeling so damn accurately it hurts, good job man, and listen up to this guy right here Bungie
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Couldn't agree more dude!! Just tried and finished for the first time the raid yesterday, since we had a strong and VOG experienced team leader, he divided us in two teams, me and the other 2 weekest players stayed with atheon and the strongest 3 went into the portal and it worked perfectly! with this new hot fix it would have been almost impossible to have completed the raid because of the randomness!!! Please bungie don't do this, you will ruin the best thing in the game!
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Very well written, I agree completely, you raise some very compelling points. Here's an excerpt from [url=http://www.bungie.net/en/Forum/Post/73725337/0/0]My thread[/url] on the same subject that I feel would do well here. [quote]Expanding on that earlier post, I would like to add that this raid was advertised as the Epiphany of team work. Players needed to work together in order to achieve victory, as stated I love running raids, and I'll do them with just about anybody. But in order for me to lead properly, I need to separate this group of 6 into two groups of 3 and I make these decisions in such a way that each of the 3 members will accommodate for each others weaknesses to achieve the highest possible rate of success. This new upcoming hot fix seems to take away that Team Work and strategy and replaces with a more "Good luck, have fun. Fingers crossed that this goes well." Since each wipe restarts the boss fight and Atheon starts at full health again, I don't feel comfortable in turning such a key part in this fight to a gamble and a roll of the dice. This part of the fight requires precision, communication and careful planning and shouldn't be left to chance and a randomly generated number. It borders foolish and for all intents and purposes seems like a poor judgement call.[/quote]
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I've been defending and supporting this game from day one. I have a friend who has played the raid 12 times and has a pair of gloves. Dude we know comes in for the first time and gets Atheons Ep, gloves, boots, suros-where is the balance of that? Instead of removing tactics from TEAMS how bout you reward the folks that work and put time into this game. I'm a 30 but I've seen folks grinding, grinding and grinding for nothing!Well said by OP. I swear this community is going to disappear if Bungie keeps insisting on taking the fun out of this game. Just sucking the life out of it. Focusing on things that are so ridiculous and leaving crap in here that's been here since day one. This is supposed to be a team activity. Teams develop strategy. Randomized selection is the WORST decision you could make. This game is turning into more of a chore than a game. COD, FAR CRY, ACU, LORDS OF THE FALLEN, DRAGON AGE, AND MANY OTHERS are coming and will steal us away unless yall start really listening and quit focusing so much on things like a good teams great tactic that has been developed over hours and hours of trial and error. Keep up the horrible horrible decisions.
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Edited by Yardman: 10/18/2014 5:43:50 PMIf they really do this than they really dont give a shit about what the community is saying and nothing in this game will ever change :( Let's just hope they listen to the people who are actually playing the game and don't change the raid despite they thought it was a good idea in the first place. Edit: Some say they want that everybody has to play every role at some point. But I have to say everybody who is seriously playing video games wants to play every role after playing the raid for the first time, because its amazing! When I first played it I was in the portal team the second time I was in the outside team (I prefer to be teleportet :D) and next time I might try playing with the relic. And when people found the role they like the most or the one they are best in they stick with this role, fine! There is really no damn need to force people into roles!
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Edited by Merlin4421: 10/19/2014 10:51:44 PMBungie stop killing your game. stop calling the teleport a bug. It was obviously intended to be that way. Now your gonna take a strat away from us because we are too fast at beating your raid. Come on bungie. You are better than this. Oh and bungie if you do this you may wanna fix the issue of anyone that comes out of the portal gets blinded when a new group goes in. Might be a problem.
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I am 100% against this change and so is my clan. It throws strategy out the window and we will be unlikely to ever take beginners into the raid because it will take too much time and overwhelm them. In it's current state assigning roles for those best suited encourages more team work and discussion.
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annoying =/= challenging changing the teleport phase to 3 randoms is adding more annoying to an already borderline rng dictated encounter.
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1 ReplyI don't think I've heard a single person say the teleport "fix" is going to be a good thing. In fact many people are saying that if it happens, they'll stop playing destiny. This could be the last straw for many players, including myself. Bungie, you can say that you listen to the community all you want. If this teleport "fix" goes through, it will be clear that you don't give a [I'm relatively new to these forums, what is the policy on profanity?] about the community. No matter what you say, your actions show who you truly are.
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1 ReplyEdited by Ze007ro: 10/19/2014 12:41:09 PMWe went up against Atheon last night. What a nightmare. Cries over the mic sounded like this....WHOS IN? WHOS IN?. Those of us with gunslinger specials ready were popping them off at the same time, making oracle duty a nightmare. The constant overlapping of chatter in the mic because of the the complete randomness of who was teleported made for a very very long 2 hours of failed attempts. In the end fireteam members began bailing, and the 5 man, then the 4 man attempts became worse and worse. What a Clusterf---k. Impossible nearly to have a dedicated relic holder when you've no idea whos getting teleported in. We tried several strats. Having the initial 3 guys in dead center of the room entrance seemed to help for the first teleport, But that was risky at best. We had a dedicated spot for cleansing under a titan shield each time the team came back, but more often than not the relic holder dies. The harpies became so agressive, I was speechless.....which never happens. Oh, and lets not forget the freeze ups, the glitchs, the WTF moments of where am I, Why didnt the teleport activate, why has this teleport shut down, why won't it let me through.....and so on. Peeps complain about the bad loot drops for killing the boss. IMO you should get rewarded just for showing up to this mess. Lets see, 50 wipes.....heres your exotic. P.S. Props to the guys in the fireteam. They were die hard and dedicated. I felt honored just to run with em. Shame the randomness/glitchs turned each attempt into something akin to Pulling the handle on a Vegas slot machine. Hails out.
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#church #preach
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Totally agree. If Bungie changes the teleport to random, they're punishing those (like me) who have yet to get a group of friends together to complete the VoG. At first, watching the streams, this raid looked extremely difficult but doable if you have the right people with clear roles. If this patch goes through, it will virtually impossible for newcomers to ever complete it as the learning curve will be too steep. Meanwhile, those who have already cleared it, will have the rewards from doing it. By all means, put baby bumpers on the dodgy AI but don't punish the players and change the rules halfway through.
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1 ReplyYeah its about teamwork and strategy, its why you have a fireteam with specific roles. Its why the raid doesn't have matchmaking so you're with your friends and you know your strengths and weaknesses. If you do this, than add matchmaking for the Vault of Glass.
