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Edited by Fragmented Hero:
10/18/2014 7:41:02 AM
527
I have not complained about any changes to this game.
- Loot Cave - okay, patch it (and you gave us a fun Easter Egg at that).
- Gun nerfs/buffs - you guys know best, you can watch how we play and address what's needed to provide multiple alternatives with weapon selection in PVP.
- Templar column - Even though I backed this as a "strategy", I only tried to help *one* group that insisted on it and my group has always had dedicated roles in that fight. We played the ground game and continue to do so, we're better and faster at it.
- Atheon "baby bumpers" - Yes, please. They're not necessary when you have a good team who play well together and know roles that we have unanimously determined by preference and vote. I didn't support the bug that broke him.
- Atheon's teleport behavior? - Please, Bungie, please. Most successful Raid teams have found that different members are better at different roles. This is a TEAM event. I, for one, am the dedicated Relic-holder for that fight. We've watched gameplay mechanics, we developed a system, a strategy, to break our group into two. Portal team does what needs to be done in the portals, and Gatekeeper team survives the hordes of suicidal Harpies, opens the necessary gate, and generally does the most damage to Atheon once Portal team is out, because we're busy getting ready to go back in again.
[b]The Atheon teleport change will break not only our strategy, but most successful teams' strategies.[/b] The fight will be utter chaos. Not everyone plays the same role in a team - that's what makes a TEAM. If we could all perform the same roles, we'd be interchangeable. Why stay together? Our group dynamics are great and we all get along well, but the glitches in Atheon's fight were tough enough to get through without someone raging. The deaths of a single dedicated member alone can make the fight unwinnable.
[b]We are using legitimate strategy there, Bungie.[/b] There is no unfair advantage, no taking advantage of unfair enemy behavior (some predictability is not a bad thing!), we just got our team 100% set [i]this week[/i]! Not everyone can be expected to perform the same in a team. We all have strengths and weaknesses and that is part of what brings us together. [b]We fill in each other's gaps in playstyle to complete the group.[/b]
Please rethink this Atheon patch. "Baby bumpers" are great. Make the community fight for their victory! But don't completely trash mechanics that aren't broken. I know six of me could not beat this Raid, nor could six of any other gamer I know. Level playing fields are great, but don't take away our individual strengths.
Sorry for the long post. I will be reposting this in the Feedback forum where it belongs, as I've asked others who post in the #destiny category. [b]I've always supported you guys and plan on continuing to... Don't break the Raid, please![/b]
Edit: Providing a link to the Feedback thread, as requested.
http://www.bungie.net/en/Forum/Post/73650422
English
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Bump. Not a co-op game if there's no teamwork/strategy involved. You're basically telling everyone on to figure out the best Class/layout to be well rounded in the Vault, and everyone's just going to be that...
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Personally I like the randomization of the Atheon fight. While no, it's not necessary... for this being the end game content it's still not pushing the limits of not only organized but also skilled teams. The whole raid has become monotonous with the same people running the same jobs. This patch can only make both you and your team stronger players and better prepared for unexpected situations. Which no doubt will be useful if you're planning on running the raid for the expansion coming out in December (if you don't look to other clans/YouTube/the forums for strats before going in)
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But this is not the point of the Raid. The raid is designed to utilize a larger team, emphasizing coordination/tactics over individual talent. If a team is smart, they will all practice each others roles to be prepared for unexpected changes, like when one of the away team isn't far enough back. Alternatively they could practice their roles and positioning to the extent that mishaps [i]never[/i] occur and the teams members are [i]always[/i] where they need to be. Complete randomization detracts from the value of coordinated efforts and re-shifts focus towards personal skill, which renders it in-line with all other game activities, which in-turn causes it to be just another redundancy of gameplay, so why bother?
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I disagree, respectfully of course (maybe we can have a constructive conversation over these forums for once) you said a smart team plays each role to be ready for unexpected changes. then this patch forces you to play like a smarter team. you also said the randomization takes away from team coordination and emphasizes personal skill. I do think this emphasizes personal skill, but this makes it so weaker players can't be carried through the raid making the raid gear/rewards more exclusive (which is a good thing to me). however, i don't think the randomness takes away from team coordination. It makes it so you can't coordinate jobs/roles before the atheon fight, yes, but you do have to coordinate on the go and communicate/re-evaluate strategy with every iteration of atheon sending half the team through the portal. To me the change to this fight makes teams who are better coordinated and with competent and evenly skilled players have a higher chance of success at the raid than teams who haven't played together before or teams who are bringing in less skilled players. not everyone will agree, in fact most probably won't, but I like that they're making the raid a little harder. it gives the best armor in the game, and some of the best weapons (not including mythoclast) and it's still easier than the nightfall in my opinion. that just doesn't feel right to me.
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Just consider, when the random three enter the portal, who decides who takes the relic? There will be on the spot confusion, time wasting, arguing... wiping and blaming will ensue. I see a lot less Raids being run now, and this is sad, because people who try as hard as they can, and find the time and force themselves to be more social and work with a group, deserve raid gear too. I've played with a couple people like this, and they won't be able to do every aspect, but they are good at listening and following some direction and they end up having a great time and they deserve their rewards. Now it seems, nobody but super hard core gamers will get through this. And even with the hardcore, think about it... if everybody is good at the relic, there is STILL the confusion upon initial teleportation. Oh, ok, it's us 3, well, um, who wants the relic? Who wants the oracles? Wait, what? Oh, shit, we're dead, well that didn't go very well. Time and time again. -blam!- this
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Edited by Chrome TaterTot: 10/18/2014 6:21:20 PMYou have a lot of good points, but my perspective is different. I agree it would be great if the raid rewards were more exclusive, but at this point they just aren't anymore. Everybody has some, even "scrubs." I also agree that the raid is easy from a skill standpoint, but it is less accessible than, say, the nightfall because it requires a large number of coordinated players. This accessibility (or lack thereof) makes the gear exclusive enough, and turns the raid into a unique challenge rather than just another grind-off with steroid-ed baddies toting AI on par with second graders. Now, I don't think its overly pretentious to call myself a good player. Nothing in the vault is overly imposing to me. But finding a team of six that even had the levels to go in, let alone the talent, took me a month. I could've raided day one if I had the team for it. Even once I had a team, they couldn't all do everything, some of them could barely do one thing. I, and a talented compatriot of mine, pick up any slack that any given team drops when we raid. In fact, most members are so terrified of the responsibility that comes with the relic that I am the designated primary relic holder. Now, as a good leader, I make sure that everyone at least knows the basics of each position, to mitigate the chaotic effect of combat, but even so things go wrong. We all die, it happens, it's the raid. But adding the RNG to the teleport would increase the total number of team wipes, just making the whole ordeal take longer and feel less satisfying. Then it becomes a grind again. It may not be "fair" for less-skilled players to have raid gear, but I think it's more unfair for talented players to not be able to acquire raid gear just because they can't network. This is exacerbated by the fact that there is no matchmaking for the raid to match similarly skilled players with you. More so, the support and tools available for clans in this game is pathetic. Joining one is a hassle and requires a computer (As clan leader I can tell you factually that I cannot accept the [b]two[/b] requests required to join a clan in the phone app), and there is literally no interfaces for the clans whatsoever in-game. In fact there's no-where in game to even ask for help with things like raids. Ultimately my opposition to the change isn't so much about how much "harder" it will make the raid, because it won't be [i]that[/i] drastic. I dislike the change because it's the second time they've shunted legitimate strategy in the big strategy activity, which is just in poor taste, and also because this change is so amazingly unnecessary, especially when juxtaposed with the litany of fundamental game issues.
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I agree whole heartedly. Also maybe fix your loot table for players in the raids. I've completed hard mode 4 times and regular vault of glass 4-5 times (on two characters) and have never received raid gear !!!!
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I couldn't agree more with this post, I cringed when i read that the teleported guardians would be random. I would understand if you added an even greater level of difficulty past the hard one and made this idea a part of it. But it would completely break down and destroy going in with a set raid team and plan. Please listen to your community on this one guys. I love this game, please don't screw this raid.
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Bump.
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Bump I want to add my vote. I agree with everything in this post.
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This is exactly the type of feedback that Bungie needs to see. All of this gibberish complaining without a thought out response is the exact opposite of what we need. Thanks for making this post civil and not just an outrage that could be seen from a 2 year old. We also have this strategy for that fight where will send two people (preferably hunters with Golden Gun) with AOE supers to take out the minions at the bottom so that the relic holder doesn't get randomly one shot by one of them (this is almost needed when doing hard mode because even lvl 30 can get wrecked by those minions at the bottom). This way it makes the portal team very easy to clear everything out and as long as the supplicants are being taken care of by outside team, then it's just a matter of everything going as planned and getting the boss down within as little tries as possible. Thanks for the awesome post Fragmented Hero.
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Bumping for visual.. Bungie, I haven't complained about any update either, but for love of God PLEASE, listen to us this ONE time. Don't randomize the teleport. I already hate going I to the Vault, but this will completely keep me out of it, I don't give a crap about the raid gear. All I want is a team that will be affective on Atheon. But you guys are screwing up your own game... All the unnecessary changes you guys are bring WILL drive people away from this game.
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This is perfect.
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I completely agree. There was nothing wrong with the way Atheon teleported people.
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Couldn't agree more with your post. Raids have set strategies and roles for each player. Just because the strat for the raid has been solidified doesn't mean it is no longer difficult or that people will no longer wipe. The random TP certainly adds another challenge, which is fine, but is it necessary? Not really. I'd rather them fix the end, where the team will be ported to a results screen, perhaps where they could receive a VoG unique engram that decrypts into a random VoG armor. At least we walk away with something if all we got were mats during the actual raid.
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Bump. I think Bungie doesnt really discuss their changes, they take the first idea their coffee maker has into the game...
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I fully agree. I've been presenting a bit of the same argument you have given. But damn yours is better!
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There's really no point in posting anything about this myself because you've already said it all. Spot on bro! Kudos to you for constructing a coherent, thoughtful and reasonable argument. It's something we don't see often enough here.
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SO with you on this!
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Edited by Basshead878: 10/18/2014 3:17:30 PMI couldn't agree more with this post. Why not leave the teleportation the way it is and just make the future changes towards ur upcoming raid that ppl don't kno how to play
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Edited by NinoMH: 10/18/2014 3:15:01 PMOne of the most intelligent and well-thought posts I've seen around in the forums. Kudos Fragmented Hero, kudos to you sir. Excellent. Just excellent.
