1)thats an exaggeration but its still a large amount of the community would rather just play COD, titanfall, AC and dragon age than have to create bungie accounts and look on the forums every time they want to enter a raid [quote]Lot of people are forming communities just to do Raids[/quote] so making raid support? the thing we want in game? the thing people are arguing will make accessing raids to easy and ruin them??? 2) completing something and accessing are 2 completely different things and being made for a certain audience doesn't mean purposely locking people out 3)ok im now level +20 in destiny im only interested in endgame content raids are 3 hours worth of the endgame content and thats assuming you complete it on your first run through I wouldn't call that a small part of a game that plans to last 10years on endgame content........... 4) who wants to take it away? I dont want the content dumbed down so anyone can complete a raid on a whim I want it so anyone can access a raid easily either through 5 friends or in game support like MM or something subtle like a place where people naturally gather for group missions like in SWTOR if you want raid once a week with mates and have a 70% success rate or something that's fine but I want to raid anytime I'm free and feel like it and I don't mind having a 10% success rate how is that ruining your experience? PS the numbers used are just an example to represent a greater and lower success rates

[quote]1)thats an exaggeration but its still a large amount of the community would rather just play COD, titanfall, AC and dragon age than have to create bungie accounts and look on the forums every time they want to enter a raid [quote]Lot of people are forming communities just to do Raids[/quote] so making raid support? the thing we want in game? the thing people are arguing will make accessing raids to easy and ruin them??? 2) completing something and accessing are 2 completely different things and being made for a certain audience doesn't mean purposely locking people out 3)ok im now level +20 in destiny im only interested in endgame content raids are 3 hours worth of the endgame content and thats assuming you complete it on your first run through I wouldn't call that a small part of a game that plans to last 10years on endgame content........... 4) who wants to take it away? I dont want the content dumbed down so anyone can complete a raid on a whim I want it so anyone can access a raid easily either through 5 friends or in game support like MM or something subtle like a place where people naturally gather for group missions like in SWTOR if you want raid once a week with mates and have a 70% success rate or something that's fine but I want to raid anytime I'm free and feel like it and I don't mind having a 10% success rate how is that ruining your experience? PS the numbers used are just an example to represent a greater and lower success rates[/quote] 1) I pretty much played WoW, Rift, and FF14:ARR on forums. Because people that are truly dedicated to something take their time to make sure they got people and support they need. Usually when I try with people that try to group in game they usually fail hard. It's cause they are lazy and try get stuff done the easy way, when it's not meant to be easy. 2) they are not locking people out, it's your choice to try or not to. If people don't want to try to get people together, they are just leaving the key in the door and not turning it. Bungie gave you tools, your choice to use them. 3) it really is a small part. Is it most likely the more fun to do, i would guess so. But you will have strikes, you'll have dailies, you'll get special missions, you have PvP. So over all yes it's a small part of the game. If you want to get into raids that is a choice, nobody is making you do it. 4) Having MM means that they would have to adjust it for 30 minute time frame, cause most people that use Match Making just want to go in and out. WoW is a big example of that now. It's fine for their current audience but it is not fine for me. Bungie flat out don't want players ruining it for other players. So they would adjust Raids for MM. Even if you try to use group finder (different from MM) in FF14.ARR, around when the game launched people would look for people and do the first boss of the raid. Even if you beat the first boss, which is not easy with randoms, you had 2 or 3 people leave and you couldn't do the next boss. I can't answer about SWTOR cause it's Raids were fail to me. Me and my buddies got through those Raids then said forget it and went back to Rift, game was a joke. By Bungie making you get a group shows me this content is geared towards players like me, only a few games can satisfy my gaming needs. If you want "easy access" games there are plenty out there. So yes to me by trying to make raid "easy access" is going to make it easier. People will complain to Bungie, the content is too hard or more likely complain people keep leaving in the middle of a raid, so what then? Bungie just ignore them as these people publicly complain about raids? Most likely they couldn't, they would have to adjust. And they then couldn't take MM out, it would wrong to just take access away like that. Without MM... This way they can look at the data and then say... Okay maybe this raid can have MM. Bungie gave you the tools to find people, a forum, clans, and an app, your choice to use them. And wouldn't surprise me if they add in game tools later on to find people. By making people group up and dedicate to each other gives the people that can do the raids a chance report about how fun the raids are if they really are fun. Once the foundation is out in the open and reports or reviews say what they think of raids. Then Bungie can think more about putting in easier access. But for launch I think MM would go bad and force Bungie turning Raids down quickly. Then taking my experience I want away, if raids are the experience I am looking for. So yes I repeat don't take that away from me.

1) you do realise who this game is marketed for right? this aint some niche hit like dark souls with roughly 2 million sales they are going for +20 million mark hell from the beta this is gonna be bigger than halo and unless the MMO crowd has quietly all converted to destiny those numbers are gonna be made up of the shooter variety the kind where if the game doesn't have in game support for its features you just switch to a different shooter so good luck selling those expansions packs 2) [quote]Bungie gave you tools[/quote] some people are apparently already making places online to find raid partners now tell me if bungie gave us the tools why are people recreating those tools outside of the game? all we are asking for is some support so far as destiny is concerned clans dont even exist I aint seen any clan features shown in destiny 3)Strikes seem more like the final mission of the world your on then you move on you can replay them but not something I was define as endgame content dailies.... considering how well bungie did with halo reach's dailies I doubt they are gonna be "ohhh lets go on destiny to see what dailies there are today" and more like "ohh I should probable check the dailies while im on destiny" there good but not enough to load destiny up just for them special mission/nightfall im curious aint heard much about them so cant be hyped or critical of them PvP yeah...... i have titanfall bungies gonna have to do something pretty epic between the beta and release for destiny PvP to be better than titanfall's 4) [quote]Having MM means that they would have to adjust it for 30 minute time frame[/quote] whoa pretty big leap in logic here I have yet to hear someone say "yeah raids sound good but would be better if they had MM and were only 30mins long" even the first strike in the game is longer than 30mins and guess what uses MM your point of people quitting how would that affect you? all it would mean is it would be annoying and a willing risk to those who use MM and whats bungie gonna do? bungie "we created it for 6 people to do over 3-4hrs if your teammates chose to quit early what can we do about it? we can give them a 24hr ban from raids but thats it" I [b]wasn't[/b] referring to the content of Swtors raids but how you can head to them and find people waiting outside looking for partners bioware designed it so players would naturally gather there so even tho it didn't have MM it had tons of support in a very subtle way while destiny....... has none its not trying something new its just doing nothing destiny is pretty entering a wooden sculpture contest with a log........ [quote]so what then? Bungie just ignore them as these people publicly complain about raids? Most likely they couldn't, they would have to adjust[/quote] add in the ability to join mid raid to fill up team spaces but with reduced loot quality depending on how much you've missed or and a easy raid mode with crap loot to be used as the whipping boy for casuals and leave normal/hard unharmed 2 suitable ideas right there without destroying raids [quote]wouldn't surprise me if they add in game tools later on to find people[/quote] thats all people want and what every single over game does even WoW pre MM had support the clan system was built into the game right? and not a separate entity that existed only in the forums I have given solutions to how bungie can react if there are people complaining about raid difficulty without changing the content(taking it away from you) but tell me if there isnt MM but people complain about about difficulty (they got 6 people together and still failed clearly raids are just cheap in their opinions) like you said bungie likely "would have to adjust" and wouldn't that take away your raids? [i]Ps sorry for really long post but I didnt wanna just skim over your valid points and wanted to give them a proper response[/i]

Lot to talk about but these posts are getting crazy. I can agree about the audience aimed for, and when it comes to Raids that is what I am worried about. From the info we know about raids they won't be what shooter players will be use to. They go into match making and when things go south and they don't understand what's going to happen. They will complain not only in the forums but around other areas giving raids worse press than they have right now. People will complain about people leaving and maybe how hard raids are. Most people will not want to go in a raid that has already started. If the team has already killed the easier bosses, that player joining will miss out on rewards from those bosses for the whole week. That is assuming they use common raid mechanics. Most people will want to start at beginning to get all the rewards they can. One of the main points of Raid progression is getting rewards to get better gear, to help you get through raids easier. If there was a lot of complaining from the MM people while Raids are a new thing that will force drastic changes to Raids to try to turn bad press around. They couldn't take MM out once they implement it, make them look worse. By not applying MM at launch it will push dedicated groups of people in there to review raids and give it some well deserved press, good or bad. Then Bungie can take that data to make changes to the game around it. Raids are a risk for Bungie, they never really been done as a fast action shooter, so they have to be careful how they give to players. Maybe once a view of raids is established they may say, "Well maybe can add MM to raids". Maybe they can do other things. Another perception Destiny is a baby and Bungie will going trial and error with it. They'll be adding a lot of stuff as the game goes. That happened with Halo to Halo Reach. Some players may not stick around for Destiny 1. But if they find out certain features are starting to be added and molded in, they may come back for Destiny 2. If they don't get better in-game tools to get players to play together I do agree game will have issues. Don't even have to be for raids, can be for anything so more people can met eachother. Doing strikes and PvP are one way but most people will just do MM strikes and not care who they did it with. I would love to see a FF14: ARR like group finder tool. Maybe something you set in orbit. With only 16 people in Tower be hard to find people with like minds there.

ye sorry its difficult to reply with a proper response to address your point and keep it short........ we know they will have some essence of puzzles which will be interesting but I reckon they will be used to break up major battle encouters so its not just a 3hr grind of shooting, it may be open world as they said they wont give you directions, there will be advance bosses by FPS standards but nothing that inherently to different from most shooters hide when you need to, shoot at weak points and if possible flank raids will be a prominent gametype after all the other gaming experience gaining good will if people dont like them "destiny ends on a flat note but the rest is really good" is the worsed that will happen rather than "destiny is a really good game but if you dont plan on committing only to it you cant access the best content and after you've reached level 20 there is not much else to do" if they had joining in progress I would what an option before I begin searching through MM since if im playing solo I wouldnt mind jumping in and missing loot but if ive got 2-3 friends together id rather start it from beginning with them ye I agree once MM is in they cant take it out which has lead me to believe they are seeing if raids will be popular without MM but if not patch it in or if they are being robbing bas****s put it into an expansion =/ im completely not with you on the review side cause any decent reviewer should know to judge a online game based on its content and not let randoms sway that so even with MM they should be obligated to play with 5 friends to get an accurate feel of the content bungie have never in the past shipped an unfinished game they may find improvements to add to next game or as with forge add a dlc pack with that concept expanded on but never shipped a game thinking "ohh yeah we will patch that problem in an expansion pack later" I just dont understand why they would willingly ship a game with a gametype that requires 6 players and no ingame support at all and think its fine how does FF14:ARR group finder work?

When I was talking about reviews I wasn't referring to professional journalism, I was talking mostly about players giving their point of view. I seen this guy that put up some okay videos on Destiny, he gots a following. He then took some information and took a very strong view on it, so strong he called Bungie retards. The guys view though was not legit. It was talking about how you could equip one exotic and one armor. He claimed the reason for this was so people were not overpowered in PvP. No idea how he came up with that assumption. Those are the people I am more concerned about. Bungie may not added stuff much to games before but Bungie also never made a game based on a MMO format. Just cause it's designed around a shooter won't take it away from what the heart of what the system is. They may wait for DLCs to add things but there will be an update that also adds some things for everybody. And I have a good idea what raids will be but the community, still people that don't understand. Just yesterday I was reading a post where the guy compared them to FireFights. So yeah some people think raids you will just go in and shoot a bunch of stuff and that is it. And MM brings them into their first experience of it, don't know how some will react. I want to say its nice to actually have a real conversation with somebody. You may not be able to change my main point of view, but still bring up valid points that are very true as well. Most people just try to argue not going anywhere. People like you get me to see some things the way I didn't see before. As far as the group finder I'll try to explain it in terms of Destiny so it gets less confusing. I also want to add group finder was not in game at release, something they added one month or two after release. Match Making is still in the game searching to quickly group you for quick activities (though some of the content in match making was too hard for matchmaking). The main raid "Coils" was not in Match Making for same reason Bungie says VoG isn't. FF14:ARR did have a 40 man raid in Match Making buy it was easy and designed to take a half hour to a hour. So basically you would be able to open up this group finder and search for what people are trying to make groups for. Like you could search explore section of group finder and find this person wants to do explore on Venus. Or maybe you want to do a certain story mission with other players you could search that as well. You could use it for strikes or PvP as well, so then what separates it from match making? With matchmaking you get what you get. With group finder you can pick what classes you want to take. Discuss strategy before you go in, like what weapons everybody is going to bring. And by forming those conversations you will bond with players more. And if you think you will stop doing Strikes when you start doing raids I actually don't think that. Most MMO designs people will still do dungeons cause they still get stuff out of it that will help them do better in future raids. Only when the rewards from strikes are not worth it no more you will stop. All depends how Bungie has it laid out. I think the Nightfall stuff is going to huge on this too. They talked about Night Missions.. Story and strike. Watched Best Buy thing yesterday that had Deej on there. He talked a bit about modifiers. We saw a little of modifiers in the Beta. Modifiers make me think of "Skulls" they added to Halo games to usually make them more challenging. The way Deej talked for some content we might be able to pick our modifiers to help make the content more challenging. Not sure at all how that will work for a game like this. Can't wait to see it and figure out what he means.

ahh right I get ya and that is really annoying spreading point blank lies but people like that you cant really stop and im sure they would whale about how bungie doesnt let you play raids anyway if they dont provide ingame support I must admit I like the MMO format with always adding new content but it has a dark side which is shipping an unfinished game and you have to buy the expansion packs to get all the features the game was intended to have...... I hope this isnt the case with destiny ok i was all set to say how none of us know what destinys raids are like atm but you do have a better idea than that guy but we dont any of the details yet we can only assume til either the 9th or real amount of gameplay footage is shown [quote]I want to say its nice to actually have a real conversation with somebody. You may not be able to change my main point of view, but still bring up valid points that are very true as well. Most people just try to argue not going anywhere. People like you get me to see some things the way I didn't see before.[/quote] Same to you its nice discussing points and counter points seeing which parts of our opinions are weaker and crumbles and which have some merit even if its not enough to convince the other person =) after all the core of both our arguments are we want raids to be the best they can possibly be that sounds like an epic system really difficult to pull off right but far superior to MM as you can eithe jump in find people as fast as you can and run out into the raid or use it to its full potential and try to craft the best team with the least amount of weaknesses before going in and possibly making friends to play with again but I can see how the raids would need to be cut/dumbed down for 40 people who just met...... but I reckon 6 is a manageable number you will be able to tell if anyone's slacking or need help and basically can use a decent amount of coordination through mics alone with no decent prior plan aye I will most likely replay strikes especially with the balancing they have to a level 1 dreg can still do decent amount of damage to ya if your not careful but I'd like to b able to switch between raids and strikes easily like say a raid is a full roast dinner takes times and dedication and strikes are pancakes quicker and easier you wouldnt want the same 1 all the time you would like to freely decide on the night which 1 to fit your mood (ps im getting a bit hungry not sure if you noticed lol) that sounds good being able to use skulls I wonder if we will have to find them while free roaming before we can use them? ill save my hype about nightfall stuff til I see more details

I hope you seen the IGN raid video with Luke Smith, if not maybe watch again. Lot of various tidbits in that video. And if you know more than when you first watch you understand things he says better. The first half is all about raids itself. Then he goes into other end game content and how it will prepare you for raids. He does mention one of the ways you get gear to prepare for Raids is doing strikes. Something I have heard is that all strikes you do as you level up have harder versions above level 20. This goes with what games like WoW and Rift have done. You kind of saw this cause even in Beta there was 2 difficulties. A level 6 and a level 8 version of Devil's Liar. So why not be a level 20, 22, 24 version with different modifiers and enemy levels. I dunno if it will be like that but we seen they have the tools to do that. When he talks about Nightfall he mostly just is referring to Daily and Weekly missions. These missions will help you get top gear, including exotics, using what sounds like a currency system.

ye I loved most of of that interview makes destiny sound like an epic and well thought out/crafted game all round but the bit that always gets to me is [quote]its a really big bet for us its a big risk because the activity requires you have a group of 5 other friends to play with, like the worst thing that happens is you get your group together and you all have a great time[/quote] No the worst thing is you don't get to play raids please tell im not the only one to see how what he claims is the worst thing is only the worst if you assume the group is already in the raid the only risk I see with raids has nothing to do with content but with no support but yeah the rest of it sounds amazing =D