How was I elite? I was merley stating that MM is a bad thing for raiding. I never once said I don't want people to experience raiding. I was more asking if people knew what a raid actually was. Since the MMO type of games are fairly new to consoles it is easy to see how may new people will be experiencing a raid for the first time. Im not saying destiny is an MMO but it shares may similarities. Yet many of those people are here, now, saying they need MM for something they know little about. Any game that has MM it is typically easier to leave a group than it is to try and work with them. If you played call of duty how many times did you see people drop the second chopper gunner/dogs kill streak. In world of warcraft how any people have see a 5 man dungeon run were 1 wipe on the first boss and 4 people leave? Even in destiny playing the Devils lair. I saw people drop after 1 failed attempt at the devil walker because a group member didn't know to shoot the legs. So how do you feel that MM in a raid will go any different. People will come in and if your group has trouble on the first trash pull or first puzzle people will drop like flies. I always hate the term casual gamer or elite gamer. Games like destiny will be more about time. If you have more time to raid it is more likely you will be able to complete it more often. If you can't raid that much then it's likely you will have more difficulty. The point of my post was if you are a gamer that can only spend a small amount of time in destiny it's more likely you will have a harder time with raiding. That's not to say you can't just it will be more difficult. If you are ok with that than raid away. If however you raid 3 times do not succeed don't blast the forums with raiding is hard nerf it.

To me Elite players in a mmorpg in most cases is a group of people who have the most influence or authority on the rest of the community on how to run a raid or pvp. Alot don't want the casual players to be in their class of society even though some try to teach but most won't because as soon they reach endgame they leave. When you tell people raids can only be done with guild or clan static that is not true because I have finished raids with matchmaking before on mmorpgs because on YouTube they show you the boss mechanics and tutorials how to beat raids. Even if it is a little tougher completing a raid with matchmaking vs a static, at some point they have to implement it because casual gamers that like this game are going to call foul because they have no real choice if they want those items but cannot find people at their lvl to play with. Bungie should make it known what minimum requirements and equipment are needed before entering a raid and make sure people have those items.

I have never said that someone needed to be in a guild or clan to raid. I full well know that a random group of people can complete a raid. I'm not suggesting that a group of MM people can not complete a raid. I'm simply stating that Imo MM a group of 6 random people will most likely have difficulty completing a raid. As I have said in other posts if someone can simply leave to click a button to find another group they will. Now we are back to a system where we people will gravitate toward randoms who have completed the raids and shy away from those who can't. So now in a way you have again isolated another group of people from raiding. If we remove MM and people have to group up at least you may find something out about those random people. From their class, spec, have they completed this raid, how much time do they have, etc. That way you can more gage if this group will work for what you need. Rather than being thrown in with 5 other random people you know nothing about and hope for the best.

Your op heavily suggest that was your attitude, it seemed like you was being somewhat condescending to casual gamers. You clearly said raids will possibly be nerfed with less loot if matchmaking was implemented and the remark about people drinking Kool-aid if they think that a raid can be completed with 6 random people on a constant bases. That my be your experience but raids can be completed with matchmaking on a constant bases because I have experience doing it.

Well I am glad that you have had a better experience with random groups for raiding that I have. Perhaps that is why you have a more positive outlook on MM than I do. As I have stated I played wow. They did add a raid finder to allow more people to access the content. To allow a more diverse group of people be able to complete the content they did nerf it. Having done both the regular and raid finder raids. Raid finder completely ignored most all mechanics to help make it easier for a random group to be able to complete the content. Raid finder also rewarded lesser gear rewards then regular raids did. Many raiders used raid finder to help gear up to raid. I'm not implying this is how destiny would address MM. I'm simply pointing out that MM in general is a crap shoot at best. Call of duty, battlefield, wow, etc. Most people in general handle adversity by simply finding a new group if it is made that easy. Ever had a bad group in call of duty? What's the first thing that happens? You leave ASAP to try and get a better group. If you add MM to a raid environment you just shift your frustration to something else. Now you can easily find a group but it may be difficult to keep that group. Then that brings in a whole new set of arguments. If someone joins late is it fair they get gear? If your in a random group are you going to be patient with the other peole? What if someone has to leave for 5 to 10 minutes. If you can simply leave and que up what is your motivation to stay? I just see MM more often than not leading to more frustration than fun.

I see the big picture and your point but it's not clear that Bungie wants to give better weapon and cosmetic rewards to hardcore gamers or can these rewards be earned in exploring, bounties, Pvp or other events? There are way more casual gamers than the hardcore and at some point that raid will be old news to the hardcore players once newer content arrives. If Destiny is just a mmorpg like shooter hiding under a different undisclosed genre then it's highly possible a lot of casual gamers are going to mislabel it a mmorpg and may sit on the fence or not buy it. Destiny is its own genre and unique and I can't wait to play it but a lot of casual gamers will shy away from buying if the rewards and enjoyment is limited to only the hardcore. Bungie needs to be little more honest and explain the raid rewards to the casual gamers because a lot of them don't know what a raid is.

I do agree at this point there's a lot we just don't know. I'm not trying to "screw over" casual gamers. http://m.neogaf.com/showpost.php?p=123373556&postcount=1085 It would seem there is a normal mode and a hard mode for raids. I look at destiny as 2 sides of the same coin. If you want to pvp like cod or halo you can. If you want to pve you have a lot of options. I view raids as the hardest content in a game. But that's like 10% of the game. There's 90% of a game that is more accessible to casual gamers. If they would like to try a raid it is accessible to them. All they have to do is meet some like minded people they have played with or hit up a forum to find 5 people. It just seems to me people think that no MM is completely impossible for them to raid. Agree or disagree how they did it but there are systems in place to get 6 people together.

And also one more thing to consider if someone drops because of their internet and can't come back in then how can you finish the raid? I see if they have a matchmaking system in play to check how many times a replacement helped finish the raid and ask if he can help or send invites to all qualified players? Could you imagine if the raid stops because a teammate drops because of his internet and everyone is kicked out of the raid. It just doesn't seem right or add up because you need some form of matchmaking feature. Some raids I have been in if people leave or drop you won't qualify for the best rewards when you finish. This reminds me of ODST friends list only coop that everyone stopped playing.