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Edited by Makeshyft: 4/5/2013 12:06:01 AM
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The abilty to prone is a [i]core secondary mechanic[/i] style choice. To discuss it's viablity, one must first theorize the facts of Destiny's combat design. [b]Core Player Mechanics:[/b] (Suite of Actions) [i]Shoot, Reload/Interact, ADS/Zoom, Throw Grenade, Switch Weapon, Use Ability/Power, Run, Sprint, Jump, Crouch, Melee[/i] Let us then divide these mechanics into primary and secondary catagories, defined by active vs. passive action towards achieving optimal end-state. (In this specific case, winning a combat vs. another agent) [b]Primary:[/b] [i]Shoot, Throw Grenade, Use Ability/Power, and Melee.[/i] [i]*Note[/i] all of the above, with the exception of [i]run[/i], are active damaging skills. This is what defines them as primary, as they directly further the achievement of our optimal end-state. [b]Secondary:[/b] [i]Reload/Interact, ADS/Zoom, Switch Weapon, Sprint, Jump, crouch[/i] All secondary skills assist primary skills. They improve the flexability of their use. Now, [i]Prone[/i] would act as a core secondary movement mechanic, vertically flattening your characters hitbox in order to offer less of a target. Within the context of this specific mechanic, we can extrapolate several game rules. [b]1. [/b] [i]A player who is prone will move at 1/4 to 1/8 normal movement speed.[/i] [b]2. [/b] [i]A player who is prone will have his 1st-person camera adjusted vertically to 1/6th it's normal height.[/i] [b]3. [/b] [i]A player who is prone will throw grenades at a reduced distance.[/i] [b]4.[/b] [i]A player who is prone will rotate his hitbox 90 degrees forward.[/i] (There are more, but these are relevant to my argument) Now, Destiny is by principle a action-shooter game. Here's a quick breakdown of traits this label implies: [i]- Based around quick reflexes, sudden combat, good problem solving skills, and fast thinking skills - Based around gunplay, vehicle usage, melee, and positioning skills. -Features short, quick matches in MP and fast-paced action sequences in SP.[/i] Now that we have some definitions, rules, and mechanics to work with, let's get to the bread and butter of a [i]Prone[/i] mechanic. As established by the 4 listed game rules defined by a [i]Prone[/i] action, we can extrapolate that a player using the mechanic would have several goals in mind: [b]1.[/b] Reduce the chances of being hit in combat. [b]2.[/b] Reduce the chances of being noticed in combat. But such an action does have negative effects as well: [b]1.[/b] Reduced movement speed. [b]2.[/b] Reduced visibility. [b]3.[/b] Reduced throw range on grenades. Now, an action game is defined by "sudden combat" and "fast thinking skills". Both these terms imply a fast paced combat environment, in which movement, positioning, and accuracy are paramount skills. Note the contradiction of this action game paradigm to the innate rules included in a [i]Prone[/i] mechanic. A [i]Prone[/i] mechanic slows down a players speed and decreases his hitbox size. Slowing down a player's speed is in direct contradiction to "sudden combat". And decreasing the chances of a player getting hit in addition to slowing a players speed encourages very cautious combat strategies, which fit poorly into our aforementioned paradigm as well. Thus, [i]Prone[/i] is not a constructive mechanic in a action game. If you need further convincing let us also consider that [i]Prone[/i] is a redundant mechanic, as it's ruleset is already covered by the [i]Crouch[/i] mechanic. The [i]Crouch[/i] mechanic is less destructive, reducing movement speed [i]and[/i] hitbox by a smaller ratio and fitting more into the action game paradigm.
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  • I like your style. You make sense. *thumbs up*

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  • Have you even played games with prone like battlefield or Crysis 1? The whole point of the mechanic is to increase your accuracy, reduce your hitbox, and overall, maximize stealth, maximize accuracy, plus the advantage of being able to take cover behind smaller objects. It's not redundant. It saves my ass.

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  • [quote]Have you even played games with prone like battlefield or Crysis 1?[/quote] Yes. I've played both extensively. [quote]The whole point of the mechanic is to increase your accuracy, reduce your hitbox, and overall, maximize stealth, maximize accuracy, plus the advantage of being able to take cover behind smaller objects.[/quote] Yes. Yes it is. However, if you read the whole conversation you'll find my issue isn't with it's utility. I find it's utility within an action game context detrimental. An action game is defined by fast paced action and quick decisions. A [i]Prone[/i] mechanic encourages neither of these. It actually encourages the opposite: camping. You reference Battlefield and Crysis as games that use a [i]Prone[/i] mechanic correctly. While accurate, both Battlefield and Crysis lack a significant playerbase. (Reference: [url]http://majornelson.com/category/top-live/[/url]) Battlefield 3 ranks 8th. Four places below Halo 4. (a game which is near universally panned and sports only a 30k population to date) I therefore ask: are these games well-designed action games? Does the inclusion of [i]Prone[/i] add any positive player strategies as defined by the action game genre? My personal answers are "no" and "no". Both Crysis and Battlefield 3 suffer from the call to realism that's plagued modern action shooters. They do not define core mechanics by a balanced, fair playing field. They define mechanics by what would be most realistic. This paradigm leads to unbalanced and unnecessary mechanics being implemented that deter from game experience. (such as [i]Prone[/i]) I am curious as to your answer.

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  • Edited by TheEyeOfOdin: 4/4/2013 11:57:03 PM
    Why have you used the word "supine"? You are aware it is not the same as prone? In fact it is the opposite, to lie on your back, where as prone is to lie on your front

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  • I was reading other posts and wrote the wrong word as a consequence of seeing it in another's post. Thank you. It has been corrected.

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  • No problem. Just wanted to be sure you knew.

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  • Edited by DEZARATH: 4/4/2013 10:52:45 PM
    You forgot to factor in human nature to want to get low to the ground during combat regardless of a game's action orientation, also as an option to be decided by the player it makes no difference in a PVE setting other than adding a skill set to the player satisfying the visceral emotion of feeling safer. Plus gamers from other Activision games will be looking for the ability and judging the game's experience to their other FPSs. To not have it available is for a COD or BF3 player is as alienating to a Halo player not to have crouch.

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  • I play BF3 all the time, it's not alienating to me. Games - especially Bungie games - are far better off without prone.

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  • Your response is an argument to realism. Realism should not be taken into account when designing core systems, as what is necessary in a real world situation may not necessarily create a balanced experience. The real world is not fair. A game, by necessity, must be. It is a prerequisite. [quote]also as a option to be decided by the player it makes no difference other than adding a skill set to the player satisfying the visceral emotion of feeling safer. [/quote] I fail to see what you're trying to say here. If you're arguing that the addition of another secondary mechanic would make no difference to gameplay, you are sorely mistaken. Any mechanic that significantly manipulates the hitbox is important.

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  • Edited by DEZARATH: 4/4/2013 11:05:00 PM
    We'll just have to wait and see with the final product. Hit boxes are important, but in PVE the reduction of line of sight is important as well and Bungies Ai are known for large radius detection. Your argument is based on PVP and the balancing of Hit boxes, but Destiny is more than just competitive brackets reducing the player to some perfect match of table tennis. Never forget the principle of simple joy of a player popping up from cover and engaging the Ai.

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  • Edited by Makeshyft: 4/4/2013 11:34:18 PM
    [quote]We'll just have to wait and see with the final product.[/quote] Yes. We will. But this serves no purpose to the debate. [quote]Your argument is based on PVP and the balancing of Hit boxes, but Destiny is more than just competitive brackets reducing the player to some perfect match of table tennis.[/quote] My argument nowhere specifies distinction between PVP and PVE. Core mechanics are shared between both instances. I do not mention competitive brackets. A core "Suite of Actions" defines player agency within a gamestate. It is the pillars from which player strategy evolves. I find issue with your table tennis example. Your use of "perfect" implies a lack of agency within the spectrum of the game. When in truth, table tennis has only a few mechanics from which it's agency is defined. (Hit ball, ball must bounce on each side, ball cannot bounce on each side twice, points are scored for double bounces or miss) Thus it is impossible to have a "perfect" match because it's agency is not rendered rigid by the over-application of game rules. [quote]Never forget the principle of simple joy of a player popping up from cover and engaging the Ai.[/quote] Player experience cannot be universally linked to any one aspect of a game. Often, it is the culmination of experience that results in satisfaction. You also make the mistake of generalizing your playerbase, as "popping up from cover and engaging the AI" may not be the pinnacle of experience to every individual. My argument is to point out that a prone mechanic is both unnecessary and redundant within a core systems context. I've yet to see any analytical evidence to the contrary. Can you think of a reason prone should be included as a core mechanic that directly invalidates my reasoning?

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  • You might have to crawl through a specific environment haphazardly applied by the developer that crouch cannot handle. This is the as example is the opposite effect of players using quick rapid jumps to scale mountains in Skyrim, only you might have wiggle through wreckage to reach an objective the developer didn't foresee.

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  • [quote]You might have to crawl through a specific environment haphazardly applied by the developer that crouch cannot handle.[/quote] Good developers don't "haphazard". If your case was a tangible example, the action could be handled by a dynamic mechanic instead of a core mechanic. (these are usually mapped to the interact key) A core mechanic is an action readily available to the player at any time. You've provided a very specific example. But a specific example is not enough to build a case to have this action readily available to the player instead of adapting the interact key to take care of it's dynamic nature. [quote]This is the as example is the opposite effect of players using quick rapid jumps to scale mountains in Skyrim, only you might have wiggle through wreckage to reach an objective the developer didn't foresee.[/quote] You're not talking about game mechanics here. You're talking about how to break the game using game mechanics. That's not an argument to include in mechanic. It's actually an argument to the contrary. [quote]wiggle through wreckage to reach an objective the developer didn't foresee.[/quote] Not foreseeing holes in your world geometry is sloppy development. This isn't even really relevant to your argument.

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