JavaScript is required to use Bungie.net

#Septagon

8/9/2012 11:38:28 PM
228

I don't have to like you, and your thread is stupid.

I don't like you, I don't have to like you, and your thread is stupid.  The subject matter within this thread must be handled very delicately, as I do not wish to encourage hateful and cruel behavior towards others. Now that this has been stated, I shall continue with illustrating my point and opening this thread to discussion and debate.  The rules here state very simply:  [b]Play nice.[/b] Insulting someone directly, attacking them or attempting to belittle an individual are not only against the rules, but avoiding these actions should be a part of every persons moral code.  Yet here I stand, an individual who despises stupidity. Not graceful ignorance, but stupidity. And when I just so happen to come across blatant stupidity that goes unchecked, I feel an unyielding obligation to publicly announce what it is they have said is stupid, and why it is they are an idiot for having said it. And I hope to God, someone would show me the same courtesy, as I would rather stand corrected than to look like a fool who refuses to educate himself for future instances. Now here is where things get a tricky as I will try to justify why a certain level of cruelty or harshness is sometimes necessary when correcting or educating someone, especially online. But let's clear a few things up first... If someone is simply making a thread to ask a question, then the best course of action is to of course, kindly assist the person.  If someone states something to which they admit they are unsure if it is factual, and you know the truth, kindly clarify for them.  If a person wishes to debate, the obvious social rule is to attack their arguments, not the individual themselves.  I'm sure you see a pattern developing here for when it would be inappropriate to use a harsh correctional tone, or even a cynically sarcastic comment remarking on a persons level of intelligence.  It's appropriate for me to more thoroughly explain the way in which I mean "a harsh correctional response". By this, I mean you identify a persons level of idiocy, and as such you remark to them your observation, followed by an advisement to better educate themselves in the future. Though you may be asking, "Why is that necessary? Why not simply tell them they are wrong?" I'll tell you why, because simply telling someone they are wrong does not cut it. It is not enough. This applies to both  inaccurate statements, as well as stupid and or pointless remarks. Especially when the person is aware that their comment may be inaccurate and or pointless (spam if you would prefer since some would deem my measurement of pointless comments subjective).  The difference between ignorance and  stupidity is clearly distinguished by a personas attitude.  If one is gracefully if igonorant, I imply that they do not know, or make a mistake with no attempts at mischief, or to be funny, or to try and sound intelligent and as such argue even though what they argue is false. Or an opinion that they like to presen as facts. All of these situations are situations in which I believe a little extra "tough-love" is necessary. After all, it is a reasonable assumption to make that people who behave in this manner are people who have been allowed to always say what they want to say when they want to say it, regardless if it is wrong, rude or flat-dumb. They origin of their stupidity is derived from unchecked behavior which allows for immaturity and stupidity to breed within their minds. At which point, a kind correction to this person will not be sufficient since they will have not experienced firm correction, and as such will likely ignore you, laugh or continue on with their idiotic ways.  BUT! Point out not only their faults, but why it makes them seem stupid, and they may take a step back to analyze their behavior.  And so in saying this, let us refer to a few examples where use of my technique would be "appropriate", as well I will illustrate some example responses.  If someone creates a thread simply for the purpose of stating why their day sucked, an appropriate response may be, [quote]This thread is pointless, and provides no discussion value. It is ridiculous and childish to believe that you can just leave your blog here for the sake of having your voice heard, without actually wanting to engage in a discussion on a public forum.[/quote] Now in the case of someone spreading misinformation, one would typically state the correction in a kind manner. But if the persons ignorance evolves into blatant stupidity, advise them of said evolution, [quote]"Hey everyone, my friend told me 343 actually made Halo: Reach, and Bungie is making halo after Halo 6!" "No they're not" "Yes they are idiot, my friend knows one of the guys a Bungie and he said its all true!" "Okay, well firstly let me point out how stupid you sound. Secondly let clearly observe how big of an idiot you're making yourself look. Either you or your friend are behaving in a dumb manner by failing to check your facts. A simply google search would have provided you with answers yet here you are allowing gullible minds to soak up all the garbage you spew so they can go somewhere else and spread the same garbage misinformation. Next time you try and post facts, try pulling your head out of your ass first, you'd be doing yourself a huge favor."[/quote]  At this point you can report the thread and move on. You've done your duty here, and hopefully the person will be so shocked and taken back by your cruel remarks, they will wish to avoid the same embarrassment again, and hopefully next time they'll avoid painting themselves in such a terrible light. Now to discuss a very, VERY common occurrence that plagues nearly every Internet forum and real life debates as well. The misstating of opinion as fact. A vast majority of individuals who are both ignorant and stubborn typically posses clouded minds. They cannot see beyond their own little world. So, when they are ever so passionate about a topic, they are [i]always[/i] right. ALWAYS. Right? Haha, you guessed it. Nope! When this instance occurs, these individuals are often told, "Hey, that's just like, your opinion, man..." And nothing changes. But whether this works or not, knowing you've given it the response it needs, may one day help open that persons sadly confused mind, [quote]Hey, it's great to hear you state your opinion as fact, but if you think you can spoon-feed us that crap you claim to be fact, when really its your opinion, you have another thing coming. Do you realize how truly idiotic and ridiculous you look, trying to, and insisting upon having people take your opinionated word as FACT? No obviously not, since if you did, you wouldn't have wasted all that time spewing crap from your mouth. Know the distinction next time, to save yourself from looking like an idiot.[/quote] These are just some of the different places I've found myself before, and thought to myself, "Has no one ever clearly advised these people how dumb that sounds without sugar-coating it as to not to hurt their feelings?". The goal is not to hurt their feelings. The goal is to take a correction that might otherwise big ignored, add a bit of spice to it, and toss it in their eyes. Maybe then they'll see how silly or idiot their pointless thread, or stupid comment, or arrogant argument might be.  So Community, are these methods too bold and cruel? Or should the practice be carefully utilized as to hopefully help bring about change within some people who would otherwise continue being the centre of their little world, spewing their stupid and idiotic nonsense? NOTE: I am not condoning or advertising that you attempt these methods. [Edited on 08.09.2012 3:40 PM PDT]

Posting in language:

 

Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Helveck I don't like you, I don't have to like you, and your thread is stupid.  [/quote] You should spend your time more constructively; I should spend my time more constructively.

    Posting in language:

     

    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

  • You can point out stupidity as long as it's intentions are not sinister. It's basically just constructive criticize then.

    Posting in language:

     

    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

  • The big reason that people continue to post in threads that bother them is that their own ego won't let them ignore it. A lot of people love to prove that they are right and the other person is mistaken. I think if it was more heavily policed it may curb it a bit but I think it will always exist.

    Posting in language:

     

    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] x Foman123 x. If you think a thread sucks, DON'T POST IN IT. This has been common knowledge on bulletin boards and discussion forums in general for the last thirty years, and yet Bungie.net's community still can't seem to grasp the concept. There is no appropriate response. Not a gentle reminder, not a harsh insult, and not even "report and move on." Just. Don't. Post.[/quote] This so much. I don't get why people feel the strong urge to share their opinions on something that bothers them when they could just as easily ignore it and go about their day. If I did that for every news article I read on the web, I'd have an angry mob at my front door. Just read it, and if you don't like what people have to say, leave. You're not really 'doing them a favor by preventing further stupidity'. Your comment is barely going to make a difference. Yes, I am aware of the irony in this response. [Edited on 08.29.2012 6:03 PM PDT]

    Posting in language:

     

    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

  • This thread made me die a little inside.

    Posting in language:

     

    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

  • It seems like to me that some people think they own these forums, when in fact, they do not. Many threads have been made about how people think these forums should be ran and how people should post. If they don't follow that, then they should experience the fury of those who want things a certain way. The only people who have any authority here can dictate how and what people post. Those people being Bungie staff. All others, including myself, are just guests here. So we, the guests, have no right to dictate what others do here. I cannot make a person post in a certain way or in a certain manner. I won't even try. It's not my place to do so and neither is it anyone elses. ~Delta [Edited on 08.11.2012 3:48 PM PDT]

    Posting in language:

     

    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

  • Here, here! [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Lobster Fish 2 Man, I miss ALL the good stuff. This thread seems super serious. I am far too late to get into the bulk of this argumentation and logical reasoning. All I'll share is that I've seen some serious hostility and hierarchy shown in the first 8 or so pages of this thread. It doesn't make me happy. We can get along better than this!!! People make stupid posts and threads, this is the internet, what do we expect? We all wish it was simple enough to just ignore them, but sometimes it isn't I try my best :)[/quote]

    Posting in language:

     

    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Helveck [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] CrazzySnipe55 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] True Underdog Show me proof that it has worked. If you have to mention specific users, just PM me then. I'm glad we agree that it's be great if everyone ignored "bad posts," but your paper thin justification that it's ok to be a jerk in this situation because other people do it doesn't cut it. [/quote]Being a jerk and telling someone why what they said is stupid are not the same things. Saying that an idea is stupid makes people not talk about those ideas anymore, typically (except for a certain few). I've made threads in the past, and I've been told in the past that what I'm saying is stupid and, while sometimes I will disagree with a person, I'm not immature enough to defy clear and plain logic when I recognize it for the purposes of winning an Internet debate. I will reiterate, being a dick to someone and telling them that their idea is stupid are two totally different things. PM incoming.[/quote] They are separate indeed. And here is a recent example of where the action necessary: [url=http://www.bungie.net/Forums/posts.aspx?postID=73634256&postRepeater1-p=1#73634479]Batman shooting victims should be given a refund.[/URL] Odd, he's blacklisted currently. While he maintains he had true and honest intentions, the person was either clearly trying to be a smart ass, or does not understand appropriate timing in sensitive situations. To which both explanations for his actions are still centered around a high level of stupidity. He does however, fire back with an insult. But whether or not my explanation and identification of his stupidity helped, we'll never know. But maybe, just maybe, after giving him a hard time, he may think twice before posting a similarly retarded thread. It's up in the air since no one can read another's mind, and that's what makes this discussion so interesting... When and where does patience and kindness work, and when and where does a bolder approach work when sensitive ways prove ineffective?[/quote] Come on, man. Do you really think that that guy would stop making threads like that just because someone told him he is stupid? That's exactly what he wants. Yes, his thread is stupid. But so is falling for such obvious bait.

    Posting in language:

     

    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] dmg04 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] CrazzySnipe55 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] dmg04 I think most of us are looking for gold stickers, hoping that people will hop on the bandwagon of whatever we say and praise us for the replies submitted. "Report and move on" DMG good idea omg you're so smart "You're stupid and this thread is bad" Yeah i agree with DMG he's so smart! [/quote]What? No? I don't tell people that their thread is terrible because I think it's the thing to do or because I'll get quote-posted or this'd. I do it because I think they're thread is stupid and they deserve to hear it.[/quote] :| That's some deep stuff right there. I'm glad you grant yourself permission to tell someone something that they 'deserve' to hear![/quote]They deserve to hear it because they deserve feedback on their thread, good or bad, not because my word is law and to hear my opinion is to have been spoken to by some divine being who will give your life purpose and meaning, but because it's an opinion that I hold. [Edited on 08.10.2012 8:41 PM PDT]

    Posting in language:

     

    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] coolmike699 You're right. If everyone ignored, it would be great. So someone has to start.[/quote]See, we already talked about this. This is the problem with joining a conversation pages in. We, myself included, tried it. It doesn't work. So we needed something else. Something that DOES work.[quote] And I'm not sure what "method" you're talking about. Telling someone that their thread is stupid doesn't seem like much of a method, unless your goal is starting flame wars. [/quote]... Again, this is the issue with joining the conversation so late. We have proven examples of it working. Yes, telling people when their thread is really stupid is the method. One that works.

    Posting in language:

     

    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] burritosenior [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] coolmike699 "Hey, you have toilet paper on your shoe." That's really all that's necessary. It's not necessary to include any name calling, or sarcasm, or other immature douchery. [/quote]... It was an example regarding the principle of the thing, not the method. [quote]Telling someone that they're wrong can simply be "Hey, you're wrong, and here's why..." and then giving them the reasons you think they're wrong.[/quote]It isn't a matter of being 'wrong.' At all. Whatsoever. [quote]Finally, do you really think being "mean" to someone who's wrong will make them see the error of their ways? No, more often then not, they'll just get angry, and presto... Internet turd fight. [/quote]It has been proven to work. Read some more posts in the thread. If everybody ignored, it would be great. But since not everybody does, this method works best.[/quote] You're right. If everyone ignored, it would be great. So someone has to start. And I'm not sure what "method" you're talking about. Telling someone that their thread is stupid doesn't seem like much of a method, unless your goal is starting flame wars.

    Posting in language:

     

    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] CrazzySnipe55 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] dmg04 I think most of us are looking for gold stickers, hoping that people will hop on the bandwagon of whatever we say and praise us for the replies submitted. "Report and move on" DMG good idea omg you're so smart "You're stupid and this thread is bad" Yeah i agree with DMG he's so smart! [/quote]What? No? I don't tell people that their thread is terrible because I think it's the thing to do or because I'll get quote-posted or this'd. I do it because I think they're thread is stupid and they deserve to hear it.[/quote] :| That's some deep stuff right there. I'm glad you grant yourself permission to tell someone something that they 'deserve' to hear!

    Posting in language:

     

    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] dmg04 I think most of us are looking for gold stickers, hoping that people will hop on the bandwagon of whatever we say and praise us for the replies submitted. "Report and move on" DMG good idea omg you're so smart "You're stupid and this thread is bad" Yeah i agree with DMG he's so smart! [/quote]What? No? I don't tell people that their thread is terrible because I think it's the thing to do or because I'll get quote-posted or this'd. I do it because I think they're thread is stupid and they deserve to hear it.

    Posting in language:

     

    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

  • I think most of us are looking for gold stickers, hoping that people will hop on the bandwagon of whatever we say and praise us for the replies submitted. "Report and move on" DMG good idea omg you're so smart "You're stupid and this thread is bad" Yeah i agree with DMG he's so smart!

    Posting in language:

     

    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

  • Man, I miss ALL the good stuff. This thread seems super serious. I am far too late to get into the bulk of this argumentation and logical reasoning. All I'll share is that I've seen some serious hostility and hierarchy shown in the first 8 or so pages of this thread. It doesn't make me happy. We can get along better than this!!! People make stupid posts and threads, this is the internet, what do we expect? We all wish it was simple enough to just ignore them, but sometimes it isn't I try my best :) [Edited on 08.10.2012 4:50 PM PDT]

    Posting in language:

     

    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

  • Helveck, you are too far on the side of "justified cruelty". And the vast, almost all-encompassing majority of the world (myself included) is too far on the side of "stupidity" (both intended and non-intended). I believe that sometimes you use your hatred of stupidity as permission to be a HUGE prick, when in actuality you could accomplish the same goal by just being a prick. I'm not writing that with the intent to call you (or anyone, for that matter) out, but instead to say: Everything should be practiced in moderation. That includes the recognition, response, retaliation of stupidity. As it specifically relates to the Bnet community, I believe that when you see stupidity, the WORST thing you can do is call other peoples attention to it or try to correct or punish it. Stupidity breeds like ... something that breeds really fast ... when the reward is fame (even interwebz fame). Welcome to almost every viral YouTube video ever.

    Posting in language:

     

    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

  • On second thought, no. [Edited on 08.10.2012 4:03 PM PDT]

    Posting in language:

     

    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Helveck I don't like using the term verbal abuse. And I don't personally believe telling someone when they're being stupid (not ignorant) and that they're behaving idiotically in a tone that is slightly harsh, qualifies as verbal abuse. But to each their own. And as Kick said, the debate were having is pretty clearly illustrated. Show complete loving tolerance, show irritable intolerance, or ignore all together. I personally believe all 3 are useful, but it all depends on the circumstance. [/quote]Okay, yeah...it's rather difficult to be nice all the time especially when it comes to hard headed individuals. Like my terrible attempt to understand this thread says above...if it takes a little verbal abuse, I'm going to do it. There's only so much one can tolerate here or really anywhere. [Edited on 08.10.2012 3:43 PM PDT]

    Posting in language:

     

    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

  • I don't like using the term verbal abuse. And I don't personally believe telling someone when they're being stupid (not ignorant) and that they're behaving idiotically in a tone that is slightly harsh, qualifies as verbal abuse. But to each their own. And as Kick said, the debate were having is pretty clearly illustrated. Show complete loving tolerance, show irritable intolerance, or ignore all together. I personally believe all 3 are useful, but it all depends on the circumstance.

    Posting in language:

     

    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Grimaldus So in short you're saying that if it takes a little verbal abuse to learn a lesson so be it?[/quote][quote][b]Posted in the OP[/b] ...are these methods too bold and cruel? Or should the practice be carefully utilized as to hopefully help bring about change within some people who would otherwise continue being the centre of their little world, spewing their stupid and idiotic nonsense?[/quote]That is the dialog we are trying to hold here, what do you think? Should we be tolerant, intolerant, or just ignore it all (as these seem to be the three most prevalent schools of thought so far)?

    Posting in language:

     

    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Helveck [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] CrazzySnipe55 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] True Underdog Show me proof that it has worked. If you have to mention specific users, just PM me then. I'm glad we agree that it's be great if everyone ignored "bad posts," but your paper thin justification that it's ok to be a jerk in this situation because other people do it doesn't cut it. [/quote]Being a jerk and telling someone why what they said is stupid are not the same things. Saying that an idea is stupid makes people not talk about those ideas anymore, typically (except for a certain few). I've made threads in the past, and I've been told in the past that what I'm saying is stupid and, while sometimes I will disagree with a person, I'm not immature enough to defy clear and plain logic when I recognize it for the purposes of winning an Internet debate. I will reiterate, being a dick to someone and telling them that their idea is stupid are two totally different things. PM incoming.[/quote] They are separate indeed. And here is a recent example of where the action necessary: [url=http://www.bungie.net/Forums/posts.aspx?postID=73634256&postRepeater1-p=1#73634479]Batman shooting victims should be given a refund.[/URL] Odd, he's blacklisted currently. While he maintains he had true and honest intentions, the person was either clearly trying to be a smart ass, or does not understand appropriate timing in sensitive situations. To which both explanations for his actions are still centered around a high level of stupidity. He does however, fire back with an insult. But whether or not my explanation and identification of his stupidity helped, we'll never know. But maybe, just maybe, after giving him a hard time, he may think twice before posting a similarly retarded thread. It's up in the air since no one can read another's mind, and that's what makes this discussion so interesting... When and where does patience and kindness work, and when and where does a bolder approach work when sensitive ways prove ineffective?[/quote]So in short you're saying that if it takes a little verbal abuse to learn a lesson so be it?

    Posting in language:

     

    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] CrazzySnipe55 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] True Underdog Show me proof that it has worked. If you have to mention specific users, just PM me then. I'm glad we agree that it's be great if everyone ignored "bad posts," but your paper thin justification that it's ok to be a jerk in this situation because other people do it doesn't cut it. [/quote]Being a jerk and telling someone why what they said is stupid are not the same things. Saying that an idea is stupid makes people not talk about those ideas anymore, typically (except for a certain few). I've made threads in the past, and I've been told in the past that what I'm saying is stupid and, while sometimes I will disagree with a person, I'm not immature enough to defy clear and plain logic when I recognize it for the purposes of winning an Internet debate. I will reiterate, being a dick to someone and telling them that their idea is stupid are two totally different things. PM incoming.[/quote] They are separate indeed. And here is a recent example of where the action necessary: [url=http://www.bungie.net/Forums/posts.aspx?postID=73634256&postRepeater1-p=1#73634479]Batman shooting victims should be given a refund.[/URL] Odd, he's blacklisted currently. While he maintains he had true and honest intentions, the person was either clearly trying to be a smart ass, or does not understand appropriate timing in sensitive situations. To which both explanations for his actions are still centered around a high level of stupidity. He does however, fire back with an insult. But whether or not my explanation and identification of his stupidity helped, we'll never know. But maybe, just maybe, after giving him a hard time, he may think twice before posting a similarly retarded thread. It's up in the air since no one can read another's mind, and that's what makes this discussion so interesting... When and where does patience and kindness work, and when and where does a bolder approach work when sensitive ways prove ineffective?

    Posting in language:

     

    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

  • I agree with the title, but I don't think there is any need to post that within a thread (I admit I do sometimes, however). [Edited on 08.10.2012 2:56 PM PDT]

    Posting in language:

     

    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

  • You know what bothers me far more often than stupidity? Conceitedness.

    Posting in language:

     

    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] burritosenior Textbook thin justification delivered. And I would remove the negative connotation you keep putting on it by default. Telling somebody that a thread is bad is not being a 'jerk.' [/quote]Justification is justification, no matter how thin.

    Posting in language:

     

    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

  • Truthfully, I don't think he's trying to say that being a jerk is appropriate. Then again, I suppose what is and what is not a jerk is for the person to decide. Simply solution: Ignore those that bother you and don't dwell on such trivial things as other peoples nonsensical behavior. If you can't control yourself, or you believe it so necessary to point out someone's stupidity, [u]can you not simply message them[/u]? Taking the more gentle approach like defnop suggested could, perhaps, have the same result as pointing it out to them publicly. :) [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] True Underdog Show me proof that it has worked. If you have to mention specific users, just PM me then. I'm glad we agree that it's be great if everyone ignored "bad posts," but your paper thin justification that it's ok to be a jerk in this situation because other people do it doesn't cut it. [/quote]

    Posting in language:

     

    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

1 2 3 4 5 6 7
You are not allowed to view this content.
;
preload icon
preload icon
preload icon