[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] BestSpartan117 reach is canon much more than the novels deal with it[/quote] Would you like to repeat this in a comprehensive form of the wonderful English language? Anyways, no there is no schism between whether something is 'more canon' than something else. That died when 343i took over and made all forms of additional media 'equal', thus both TFOR and Halo: Reach are equally canonical sources.

The only augmentation not shared between the S2 and S3 programs (in some form) was the thyroid implant. It was what caused the S2's to become much taller then other humans IIRC. As for the box. I'd wager it was his gun. Or something that in general wasn't really needed for the upcoming mission. Who knows.

reach is canon much more than the novels deal with it [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] SurreallFeal I remember I first read Eric Nylund's The Fall of Reach when I was about 7. I remember being in love with that story, even though I didn't even entirely understand a lot of it. Since then I have read the book COUNTLESS times. Now I can recognize that the writing style and general mechanics aren't all that impressive, and some parts that could be amazing with more details and elaboration, but the story itself is amazing. When Halo Reach came out, the entire battle is on a much smaller scale, and simply doesn't feel as good. I understand that Nylund's version wouldn't make for much of a campaign, but at least the story is excellent. The Reach campaign just moves around too much and I can't seem to get myself to enjoy it. I have heard that the events of a video game override books in terms of what is canon, but I can't bring myself to accept the game's story. Does anyone else feel this way?[/quote]

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] CrazyHUNTER 95 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Cmdr DaeFaron Um... Jorge's armor is Mark V. The mark's are labeled by what the armor can do. Since his armor has shields, it can be called mark V. It's not very outdated or inferior.[/quote] First off, I applaud you good sir. You know your stuff and it's fair to say I should go back and read a few things. However; I think I have you on this one. How was all of Noble team wearing Mark V when the armor is near impossible to wear without the augmentations of the Spartan II program? Aside from George I think the rest of the team would have a bit of a problem doing this. Now, I know that Spartan III program used almost the same augmentations as the Spartan II program, but the only one that was not given to Spartan III's is the one that alters Bone and Muscle structure. Which leads to another question (If the Halo wiki is not lying to me. I really should read Ghosts of Onyx again or find my Halopedia) How is Noble six able to survive the Fall in Long Night of Solace or flip tanks for that matter? Matter of fact, even if they can wear Mark V, how does a falcon support them? Even with just two of them in a falcon that would be over 2000 pounds! My ultimate question though, what was in the case George throws to the ground at the beginning of LNoS? It seems so important to the mission and then it's totally forgotten! [/quote] It isn't that he knows his stuff (which he does) it is just that you are using halopedian as a source which is obviously not working for you. The spartan IIIs got the same "augmentations" they were only missing one or two and those weren't needed for the armor. He survives the fall because had a T pack IIRC not to mention they lock their armor in so it won't cause much damage along with a few other things. Flipping tanks is gameplay, IRRC the falcon can support 4 at a time hence why they split up in the first mission. We will never know, most of us assumed it was his gun but i am not to sure.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Cmdr DaeFaron Um... Jorge's armor is Mark V. The mark's are labeled by what the armor can do. Since his armor has shields, it can be called mark V. It's not very outdated or inferior.[/quote] First off, I applaud you good sir. You know your stuff and it's fair to say I should go back and read a few things. However; I think I have you on this one. How was all of Noble team wearing Mark V when the armor is near impossible to wear without the augmentations of the Spartan II program? Aside from George I think the rest of the team would have a bit of a problem doing this. Now, I know that Spartan III program used almost the same augmentations as the Spartan II program, but the only one that was not given to Spartan III's is the one that alters Bone and Muscle structure. Which leads to another question (If the Halo wiki is not lying to me. I really should read Ghosts of Onyx again or find my Halopedia) How is Noble six able to survive the Fall in Long Night of Solace or flip tanks for that matter? Matter of fact, even if they can wear Mark V, how does a falcon support them? Even with just two of them in a falcon that would be over 2000 pounds! My ultimate question though, what was in the case George throws to the ground at the beginning of LNoS? It seems so important to the mission and then it's totally forgotten! [Edited on 07.28.2012 12:56 AM PDT]

book>game becuase book was first and better and made sense

No idea if anyone cares, but some people expressed some other opinions on it in this [url=http://www.bungie.net/Forums/posts.aspx?postID=73603429]thread[/url] about books/canon.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] paulmarv The possessor of the canonical artifact is told that he is in "possession of the most complete and accurate account that anyone has been able to assemble of SPECWAR/GroupTHREE/NOBLE's actions". The whole canonical artifact is that of a data artifact. Therefore, any discrepancy between the events manifested in the "Halo Reach" artifact and the narrative "Halo: The Fall of Reach" is an illustration of what ONI either erroneously believes, or intently propagandizes. Think of Halo Reach as a parable and Halo: The Fall of Reach as the real deal. Please read my post here (the entire thread is actually of great pertinence to this discussion).[/quote] Ah, no, not at all, not in the least. Regardless of what the letter(s) included with the Limited/Legendary Editions of Reach say, it's completely and one hundred percent canon, as is TFoR. Neither one is the "real deal", as you put it, at the expense of the other, they are two sides to the same coin, half of the same whole. And to be quite honest, they're both much better together anyway, on their own they each have their own short-comings that the other fills in (though I think TFoR on it's own has a [i]lot[/i] more short-comings when it comes to the battle). If you ask me the only reason that Bungie made Reach out to be an artifact from within the Halo universe was so that 343i had as much wiggle room in regards to the game as they needed...and since 343i hasn't changed one bit of Reach and done their best to mesh it with TFoR, then it is perfectly safe to say that there is as much non-canon about Reach as there is to any of the other Halo games. Other canon materials have started mentioning Reach, such as the new book Glasslands (which is also canon, unfortunately, no matter how much I, or any other person despises it). [quote]Just because it happens to be that simple this time doesn't mean that is always is. I vehemently disagree with people who say that the true canon is whatever the business authorities say it is. The true Halo canon is an immutable identity that is higher than any of us, or any business entity - Bungie or 343. Nobody dictates what it is, rather, the people in position (such as Bungie) have revealed parts of it to their best ability in the form of a video game. If you disagree, I can point to places where I have written long and extensive proofs of the statement I have just made, but I will only point you to them because discussion of them here would border of off-topicness because, as I said before, the answer to this whole thread is really as simple as that one quote from the Halo Reach box above.[/quote] Again with the spewing of your nonsensical views as to what constitutes canon? Seriously? So you honestly believe that the writers are not in control of their own story at all and have absolutely no say over what is or is not a valid part of the universe they've created? That is possibly the [i]dumbest[/i] thing I have ever heard, and quite offensive to boot. The writers and creators of a story are the [u][b][i]ONLY[/i][/b][/u] ones who decide what is or is not canon, not the fans, not some arbitrary and abstract rule you or anyone else makes up...nobody except those crafting the story. I've seen your other posts on this matter of canon...and none of them contain [i]any[/i] kind of proof at all, just you basically claiming that your idea is right and the only one that can define what is or is not canon. I'm a writer, so I know all about crafting stories and whole universes from scratch and welding together all these different concepts and ideas to form one neat and cohesive story. Do you have any idea how offensive and utterly ridiculous it sounds with you claiming that I have no active control over what is or is not true for what I've created? It's just downright insane! Anyways, as for the original OP and the whole point of this thread. Yes, Reach is absolutely canon, people can try to deny it all they like, but both Bungie and 343i treat and regard the game as canon, so they don't even have a leg to stand on. Unless otherwise stated (such as the episode "Odd One Out" in Halo Legends) to be so every piece of Halo media released is a part of the Halo canon.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Sliding Ghost [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] RKOSNAKE What does Jorge needs to understand about his armor? He just swapped his armor pieces to ones made by private manufacturers, something that other Spartans have done before (Fall of Reach comic, some Spartan II's including Fred use several different helmets like the Commando helmet, EOD, ODST and Operator/Scout [can't really see which one it is]), and that's with them using the Mark IV armor, so why Jorge can't y'know, change his armor? I mean, Special Operations units get more liberty when it comes to pretty much everything, outfit/uniform included, so him changing something external on the armor like his chest and shoulders as well as his helmet is not a bad thing, it's not like there are not at least five companies working on privatized MJOLNIR variants.[/quote]There is a subtle similarity between Jorge and Kurt. Both are Spartan IIs Both work with Spartan IIIs Both wear outdated or inferior armor And yeah it's not a bad thing to customize. Elites were pretty predictable and nameless in CE and Reach. But in H2 and H3, that's when they were the most story driven. They could be given weapons by the player and they were powerful as a team than individually.[/quote] Um... Jorge's armor is Mark V. The mark's are labeled by what the armor can do. Since his armor has shields, it can be called mark V. It's not very outdated or inferior.

cool, halo is a great game it has loads of really great gameplay

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] RKOSNAKE What does Jorge needs to understand about his armor? He just swapped his armor pieces to ones made by private manufacturers, something that other Spartans have done before (Fall of Reach comic, some Spartan II's including Fred use several different helmets like the Commando helmet, EOD, ODST and Operator/Scout [can't really see which one it is]), and that's with them using the Mark IV armor, so why Jorge can't y'know, change his armor? I mean, Special Operations units get more liberty when it comes to pretty much everything, outfit/uniform included, so him changing something external on the armor like his chest and shoulders as well as his helmet is not a bad thing, it's not like there are not at least five companies working on privatized MJOLNIR variants.[/quote]There is a subtle similarity between Jorge and Kurt. Both are Spartan IIs Both work with Spartan IIIs Both wear outdated or inferior armor And yeah it's not a bad thing to customize. Elites were pretty predictable and nameless in CE and Reach. But in H2 and H3, that's when they were the most story driven. They could be given weapons by the player and they were powerful as a team than individually.

What does Jorge needs to understand about his armor? He just swapped his armor pieces to ones made by private manufacturers, something that other Spartans have done before (Fall of Reach comic, some Spartan II's including Fred use several different helmets like the Commando helmet, EOD, ODST and Operator/Scout [can't really see which one it is]), and that's with them using the Mark IV armor, so why Jorge can't y'know, change his armor? I mean, Special Operations units get more liberty when it comes to pretty much everything, outfit/uniform included, so him changing something external on the armor like his chest and shoulders as well as his helmet is not a bad thing, it's not like there are not at least five companies working on privatized MJOLNIR variants.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] CrazyHUNTER 95 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Cmdr DaeFaron 1+2: If you bother to read that letter they released before the game came out... Kurt and Mendez are talking about pulling out some of the best Spartan 3's from the main company before the suicide mission. These Spartans also were outfitted 'properly'. Aka, MJOLNIR. 3: First line has no bearing at all, you can have an older, highly experienced Sergeant serving under an officer who just came out of the academy. Kurt also cared for others under his command and was friendly, are you saying he makes no sense too? Um... why the hell wouldn't the UNSC understand MJOLNIR? his armor is described as the variant which acted as the test-bed for shielding tech. And Erran there covers the promotion part.[/quote] MJOLNIR isn't understood very well by the UNSC. It's borrowed tech based off of the elites shielding. The fact that Jorge who is a Spartan and not a scientist could figure out how to modify his armor is absolutely far-fetched. Spartan II's were given far superior training which should make him the leader of Noble team. [/quote] 1. were you high? what sense does it make that the UNSC wouldn't understand something they created? The shielding is based off the jackals energy gauntlet, someone needs to read the books again. 2.So you are telling me it is far fetched that jorge knows how to operate the armor he has been wearing for over 20 years? Yeah, that doesn't make sense whatsoever like a welder not knowing how to set up his machines because he isn't a mechanic.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] TedToaster22 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Cmdr DaeFaron [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] TedToaster22 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Cmdr DaeFaron Really, this whole topic is a beaten horse. I mean, I'm curious why the Reach topics are appearing again? I thought nearly all the debating about it and Canon were done?[/quote] Because the issues were never solved, just given up upon.[/quote] You mean the issues that I believe 343 released data drops which solved them? Either way, regardless if they were 'solved' the group that liked reach and the group that disliked reach finished their debating and moved on/became friendly.[/quote] 1. Data Drops didn't solve everything, they only patched certain pieces of the broken canon. 2. The existence of this thread disagrees.[/quote] So... you admit the data drops did fix stuff. Even if it didn't fix every last thing, they covered stuff. Really, 343, and Bungie both call Halo Reach canon. It's solid fact that way. Denying it is just stupid. I'm talking the ones who were really vocal. Like Me, deceptioncobra, rkosnake, grey101, elder bias, etc. Do you see us constantly posting Reach debates anymore? No. We'll appear in topics somebody just randomly posts, but pretty much entirely we've moved on.

Do tell me exactly where I said, with quotes, that the sparta corpses in Lone Wolf are Spartan III's. Also, I'm saying a FEW were pulled out and got the armor, not many. Why would they have assisted Noble Team is so? They would have had their own orders and objectives. Hell, if we go by the idea that the Lone Wolf Spartans were S3's like Noble Team... Note they are in the field just below the PoA. They could've been ordered to go ther and try to hold of the Covenant. That's assisting Noble Team, although indirectly. Either way, face it buddy, It happened. Kurt and Mendez pulled out some members of Alpha and Beta company to form squads that did get better gear. Either way, you are bashing Jorge... for something that another Spartan showed. So do you hate Kurt? Oh, and I believe it was stated all of Noble Team had higher then normal ranks so they wouldn't have to follow the orders of a random officer/sergeant on the field going "Hey, I order you to take out this bunker instead of heading to the armory!" Um... the color teams were a by mission basis. Linda was leader of Green team... for a grand total of one mission. After she ran with Blue or Red. If they needed another team they formed green. MJOLNIR clearly isn't understood well by you. You are saying that... the USA doesn't understand the Abrams tank basically. A: They built the damn thing. This is like Ford designing a new truck partly based on heavy research into a chevy truck, and not understanding how it works despite reverse engineering the chevy truck! B: The shielding is based off a Jackal shield gauntlet, NOT ELITE SHIELDING. C: Might I ask where the heck they imply Jorge modded his armor by himself? The closest you get is Halsey asking him what he has done to her armor and he goes "Some modifications" (IIRC). It doesn't sound like he just went "lol swap out parts." Even then, the mods? Um... external. armor. plating. Not the innards. Sigh, and D: Clearly you don't know the lore as well as you think. S3 training is several times described as being better and harder then S2 training. And just because he's supposedly "more skilled" and "Has more experience" doesn't make him a leader. There are reasons you have older soldiers following younger officers. Not because they lack the skills or experience, but because those older soldiers just don't want to, or can't completely be leaders.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Cmdr DaeFaron [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] TedToaster22 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Cmdr DaeFaron Really, this whole topic is a beaten horse. I mean, I'm curious why the Reach topics are appearing again? I thought nearly all the debating about it and Canon were done?[/quote] Because the issues were never solved, just given up upon.[/quote] You mean the issues that I believe 343 released data drops which solved them? Either way, regardless if they were 'solved' the group that liked reach and the group that disliked reach finished their debating and moved on/became friendly.[/quote] 1. Data Drops didn't solve everything, they only patched certain pieces of the broken canon. 2. The existence of this thread disagrees.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Cmdr DaeFaron 1+2: If you bother to read that letter they released before the game came out... Kurt and Mendez are talking about pulling out some of the best Spartan 3's from the main company before the suicide mission. These Spartans also were outfitted 'properly'. Aka, MJOLNIR. 3: First line has no bearing at all, you can have an older, highly experienced Sergeant serving under an officer who just came out of the academy. Kurt also cared for others under his command and was friendly, are you saying he makes no sense too? Um... why the hell wouldn't the UNSC understand MJOLNIR? his armor is described as the variant which acted as the test-bed for shielding tech. And Erran there covers the promotion part.[/quote] So, what your telling me is that over 20 Spartan III's were pulled out? Then they were outfitted with MJOLNIR, armor so expensive it was one of the main reasons why the Spartan II program was discontinued, and not a single one made it off of Reach or even tried to assist Noble Team? Kurt and Jorge aren't normal Spartans. Their emotions are described as "rare and abnormal" Kurt was promoted so he wouldn't have to serve under Mendez, Mastercheif was promoted because he served as a highly successful team leader and he was the only one promoted out of the academy. Linda was promoted to petty officer second class. That's not much of a promotion there and I believe it was because John designated her the leader of Green Team. MJOLNIR isn't understood very well by the UNSC. It's borrowed tech based off of the elites shielding. The fact that Jorge who is a Spartan and not a scientist could figure out how to modify his armor is absolutely far-fetched. Spartan II's were given far superior training which should make him the leader of Noble team.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] TedToaster22 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Cmdr DaeFaron Really, this whole topic is a beaten horse. I mean, I'm curious why the Reach topics are appearing again? I thought nearly all the debating about it and Canon were done?[/quote] Because the issues were never solved, just given up upon.[/quote] You mean the issues that I believe 343 released data drops which solved them? Either way, regardless if they were 'solved' the group that liked reach and the group that disliked reach finished their debating and moved on/became friendly. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] farmerscott21 I agree with you. Halo: Reach's characters were just more empty shells fighting a super-small portion of the battle. I enjoyed the campaign, but I think it would have been a lot better if it followed the Spartan II's. Also, and I'm not sure why it bothered me so much, but I didn't like how the Pillar of Autumn was on the ground and how Cortana wasn't with the Chief. It's been a while since I've read "The Fall of Reach" but I'm pretty sure Reach disregarded both of those two points.[/quote] Perhaps about S2's... but then again, we already knew what they did for the most part. I preferred this due to the fact the UNSC had been ready on the ground and fighting, and the Covenant had time to scout and find out the locations instead of magically just steamrolling all of Reach in hours and knowing the exact location of every major base that was in the book. As for the PoA, that was a weird thing yeah, Cortana though, if you missed it, was split. Only a part of her was what Six carried to Keyes. The bulk was with chief.

I agree with you. Halo: Reach's characters were just more empty shells fighting a super-small portion of the battle. I enjoyed the campaign, but I think it would have been a lot better if it followed the Spartan II's. Also, and I'm not sure why it bothered me so much, but I didn't like how the Pillar of Autumn was on the ground and how Cortana wasn't with the Chief. It's been a while since I've read "The Fall of Reach" but I'm pretty sure Reach disregarded both of those two points. [Edited on 07.23.2012 10:03 AM PDT]

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Cmdr DaeFaron Really, this whole topic is a beaten horse. I mean, I'm curious why the Reach topics are appearing again? I thought nearly all the debating about it and Canon were done?[/quote] Because the issues were never solved, just given up upon.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] ErranInfigo [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] CrazyHUNTER 95 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Cmdr DaeFaron A: Armor was explained... B: And the battle in the book still took place. Of course, I looked at the battle in the Fall of Reach more in detail after these debates popped up, and found out the book version had the UNSC ground forces doing nothing and not even being prepared... despite a massive fleet of 300+ ships charging the planet. C: How does Jorge annoy you?[/quote] How was the armor explained in a logical manor? Especially for the mission Lone Wolf where there are numerous Spartan III's on the ground with MJOLNIR armor. Also what about the Alpha and Beta group Spartan III's appearing on reach despite all of them being wiped out? Jorge's character makes no sense. A Spartan II serving under a Spartan III, He show's waaaaaaaaay to much emotion for a Spartan II, how the hell did he modify armor that the UNSC barely understands, and how was he able to ascend to the rank of cheif warrant officer when Spartans are very rarely promoted? [/quote] 1. How do you know they were Spartan III's? 2. Not all of the companies were wiped out. Two survived, obviously. Bungie actually states this. 3. The UNSC understands the armor they created. What are you on about? The Master Chief was promoted. Kurt was promoted. Linda was promoted. [/quote] To expand/add. 1+2: If you bother to read that letter they released before the game came out... Kurt and Mendez are talking about pulling out some of the best Spartan 3's from the main company before the suicide mission. These Spartans also were outfitted 'properly'. Aka, MJOLNIR. 3: First line has no bearing at all, you can have an older, highly experienced Sergeant serving under an officer who just came out of the academy. Kurt also cared for others under his command and was friendly, are you saying he makes no sense too? Um... why the hell wouldn't the UNSC understand MJOLNIR? his armor is described as the variant which acted as the test-bed for shielding tech. And Erran there covers the promotion part.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] X Delta Xero X It's been said before, game canon overrides book canon.[/quote] this

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] CrazyHUNTER 95 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Cmdr DaeFaron A: Armor was explained... B: And the battle in the book still took place. Of course, I looked at the battle in the Fall of Reach more in detail after these debates popped up, and found out the book version had the UNSC ground forces doing nothing and not even being prepared... despite a massive fleet of 300+ ships charging the planet. C: How does Jorge annoy you?[/quote] How was the armor explained in a logical manor? Especially for the mission Lone Wolf where there are numerous Spartan III's on the ground with MJOLNIR armor. Also what about the Alpha and Beta group Spartan III's appearing on reach despite all of them being wiped out? Jorge's character makes no sense. A Spartan II serving under a Spartan III, He show's waaaaaaaaay to much emotion for a Spartan II, how the hell did he modify armor that the UNSC barely understands, and how was he able to ascend to the rank of cheif warrant officer when Spartans are very rarely promoted? [/quote] 1. How do you know they were Spartan III's? 2. Not all of the companies were wiped out. Two survived, obviously. Bungie actually states this. 3. The UNSC understands the armor they created. What are you on about? The Master Chief was promoted. Kurt was promoted. Linda was promoted.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Cmdr DaeFaron A: Armor was explained... B: And the battle in the book still took place. Of course, I looked at the battle in the Fall of Reach more in detail after these debates popped up, and found out the book version had the UNSC ground forces doing nothing and not even being prepared... despite a massive fleet of 300+ ships charging the planet. C: How does Jorge annoy you?[/quote] How was the armor explained in a logical manor? Especially for the mission Lone Wolf where there are numerous Spartan III's on the ground with MJOLNIR armor. Also what about the Alpha and Beta group Spartan III's appearing on reach despite all of them being wiped out? Jorge's character makes no sense. A Spartan II serving under a Spartan III, He show's waaaaaaaaay to much emotion for a Spartan II, how the hell did he modify armor that the UNSC barely understands, and how was he able to ascend to the rank of cheif warrant officer when Spartans are very rarely promoted?

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Sliding Ghost I'll never accept Reach gameplay depiction as canon. The whole campaign should have been cinematics. Especially LNoS: LNoS mission start - excessively scripted LNoS space launch - unbearably long, can't skip it[/quote] A chunk of the time... gameplay isn't labeled as direct canon.

I'll never accept Reach gameplay depiction as canon. The whole campaign should have been cinematics. Especially LNoS: LNoS mission start - excessively scripted LNoS space launch - unbearably long, can't skip it