[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] NewRadical12 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] coolmike699 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] NewRadical12 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] coolmike699 For anyone of you who thinks this is so wrong... Name me one freedom without location and forum restrictions, besides freedom of thought (thoughts can't possibly offend or hurt others unless you say them). Go one, give me an example of one freedom that isn't balanced with the freedoms of others, creating unavoidable restrictions. [/quote]How can you possibly have argued for us for this long without understanding our position? Also, what "right" are the minority of students in this situation asserting?[/quote] Their right to have a space to practice their religion freely, which they cannot do with alcohol around? Like I said, this is a balancing act. The non drinking students' right to have a space to be away from alcohol vs. the drinkers' right to drink. Since the students are free to choose where they live, and the students who drink can live in areas that allow it, the non drinkers' rights outweigh the drinker's rights [i]in the alcohol free areas.[/i] The reverse is true in the areas where alcohol is permitted.[/quote]The right to freely practice one's religion does not include the right to restrict the rights of others. Most universities have some sort of chapel wherein students can worship. It might be okay to disallow alcohol there, but disallowing alcohol in public areas of the university is not. [quote]You realize that the college isn't going to literally take the drinks out of the student's hands, right? The change will go into effect at the beginning of the next school year, and students who want to live in areas where alcohol is permitted will be given plenty of time to choose. [/quote]You realize that not once in the article was housing ever mentioned, right?[/quote] I assume that housing is included in "zones and events". And like I pointed out when I posted the Supreme Court article about the ministerial exception in American law, there are times when religious freedom can be used to restrict individual rights.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] coolmike699 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] NewRadical12 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] coolmike699 For anyone of you who thinks this is so wrong... Name me one freedom without location and forum restrictions, besides freedom of thought (thoughts can't possibly offend or hurt others unless you say them). Go one, give me an example of one freedom that isn't balanced with the freedoms of others, creating unavoidable restrictions. [/quote]How can you possibly have argued for us for this long without understanding our position? Also, what "right" are the minority of students in this situation asserting?[/quote] Their right to have a space to practice their religion freely, which they cannot do with alcohol around? Like I said, this is a balancing act. The non drinking students' right to have a space to be away from alcohol vs. the drinkers' right to drink. Since the students are free to choose where they live, and the students who drink can live in areas that allow it, the non drinkers' rights outweigh the drinker's rights [i]in the alcohol free areas.[/i] The reverse is true in the areas where alcohol is permitted.[/quote]The right to freely practice one's religion does not include the right to restrict the rights of others. Most universities have some sort of chapel wherein students can worship. It might be okay to disallow alcohol there, but disallowing alcohol in public areas of the university is not. [quote]You realize that the college isn't going to literally take the drinks out of the student's hands, right? The change will go into effect at the beginning of the next school year, and students who want to live in areas where alcohol is permitted will be given plenty of time to choose. [/quote]You realize that not once in the article was housing ever mentioned, right?

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] coolmike699 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] NewRadical12 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] coolmike699 For anyone of you who thinks this is so wrong... Name me one freedom without location and forum restrictions, besides freedom of thought (thoughts can't possibly offend or hurt others unless you say them). Go one, give me an example of one freedom that isn't balanced with the freedoms of others, creating unavoidable restrictions. [/quote]How can you possibly have argued for us for this long without understanding our position? Also, what "right" are the minority of students in this situation asserting?[/quote] Their right to have a space to practice their religion freely, which they cannot do with alcohol around? [/quote] A) This is false. B) If it is true, there are...Unfortunate Implications...that I don't think you are willing to go into.

Oh look, appealing to a minority, and some getting butt hurt over an activity they don't have to partake in, and spoiling it for everyone. Good job on the race card.

My university is probably 20% muslim too. Personally I wouldn't care, but that -blam!- would still not fly here.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] NewRadical12 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] coolmike699 For anyone of you who thinks this is so wrong... Name me one freedom without location and forum restrictions, besides freedom of thought (thoughts can't possibly offend or hurt others unless you say them). Go one, give me an example of one freedom that isn't balanced with the freedoms of others, creating unavoidable restrictions. [/quote]How can you possibly have argued for us for this long without understanding our position? Also, what "right" are the minority of students in this situation asserting?[/quote] Their right to have a space to practice their religion freely, which they cannot do with alcohol around? Like I said, this is a balancing act. The non drinking students' right to have a space to be away from alcohol vs. the drinkers' right to drink. Since the students are free to choose where they live, and the students who drink can live in areas that allow it, the non drinkers' rights outweigh the drinker's rights [i]in the alcohol free areas.[/i] The reverse is true in the areas where alcohol is permitted. You realize that the college isn't going to literally take the drinks out of the student's hands, right? The change will go into effect at the beginning of the next school year, and students who want to live in areas where alcohol is permitted will be given plenty of time to choose. [Edited on 04.14.2012 9:18 PM PDT]

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] coolmike699 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Chupanebre627 My mother is always going on about how Muslims are trying to take over the world. Superstitious nonsense really, but you can see her point I suppose... It isn't about catering for everyone, it's about free-will. You want to drink, drink. You don't want to drink, then don't -blam!- drink. If someone else is drinking and you don't drink, don't have -blam!- hissy fit.[/quote] This works both ways, bud. If the students have said they don't want drinking in one building, then don't have a -blam!- hissy fit either. You have the free will to go somewhere where drinking is allowed. If you are going to tell others to not be sensitive and get over it, then you have to be willing to do the same. [/quote] Perhaps if they weren't making them for the purpose of religion.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Hylebos [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] NewRadical12 Great. Now let me ask you, were alcohol-free dorms created because of the whims of a religious minority, or because the presence of the consumption of alcohol tends to cause problems in safety, tranquility, and health?[/quote]Has it occured to you that these two options are the [u]exact same thing[/u]? Why do you think Muslims think Alcohol is immoral? Do you think it's just something they randomly came up with? Did it occur to you that it was perhaps motivated by a societal agreement that the presence of the consumption of alcohol tends to cause problems in safety, tranquility, and health? So let me get this straight. If a group of students want an alcohol free area because they believe that the presence of the consumption of alcohol tends to cause problems in safety, tranquility, and health, that's alright with you. But if a group of students want an alcohol free area because said belief that the presence of the consumption of alcohol tends to cause problems in safety, tranquility, and health is already prebuilt into their religion, that's somehow horrifically wrong? Why does it matter? At the end of the day, they just want a space where they can study without having to deal with the often pants-on-head stupid shenanigans that drunken people provide, who the hell gives a damn about what their motivation is?[/quote]None of the rationale listed in the article included anything about health, tranquility, or safety. It was about not wanting to "offend" people. Well I'm sorry, but nobody has a right to not be offended. If they're concerned for their own safety or peace that's acceptable, but don't try to use your religious edicts to advance those ends.

Well, students can easily just ignore the rules of just drink in the domitories.

Why? I honestly don't get it. Being culturally sensitive? This makes no sense when you think about it. Religious freedom/cultural freedom is fine by me. However, when you immigrate to a country, you adopt the countries culture. Not ignore it and only follow your own.Not saying that all Muslim immigrants do so, there are many that I know who are pretty upset about this sort of stuff as well. Regardless, I don't see how it's offensive. That's of course if this whole thing is religiously motivated. Besides, I'm sure their are many areas where students can socialize/study where alcohol isn't present. Just don't see the major issue here. [Edited on 04.14.2012 8:36 PM PDT]

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] NewRadical12 Great. Now let me ask you, were alcohol-free dorms created because of the whims of a religious minority, or because the presence of the consumption of alcohol tends to cause problems in safety, tranquility, and health?[/quote]Has it occured to you that these two options are the [u]exact same thing[/u]? Why do you think Muslims think Alcohol is immoral? Do you think it's just something they randomly came up with? Did it occur to you that it was perhaps motivated by a societal agreement that the presence of the consumption of alcohol tends to cause problems in safety, tranquility, and health? So let me get this straight. If a group of students want an alcohol free area because they believe that the presence of the consumption of alcohol tends to cause problems in safety, tranquility, and health, that's alright with you. But if a group of students want an alcohol free area because said belief that the presence of the consumption of alcohol tends to cause problems in safety, tranquility, and health is already prebuilt into their religion, that's somehow horrifically wrong? Why does it matter? At the end of the day, they just want a space where they can study without having to deal with the often pants-on-head stupid shenanigans that drunken people provide, who the hell gives a damn about what their motivation is?

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] HALO12325 If we're talking about a floor that you are informed beforehand that drinking is not permitted (before you sign up for residence), then that's fine. Any sort of attempts to change anything besides a floor or so of dorms is infringing upon the rights of the many for the few.[/quote] I agree with this. If they want to have a alcohol-free floor as an option for the students that want it, that is fine with me.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] everywhere116 Then explain your reasons why. You cannot expect us to take your assertions that our analogies are inappropriate when you do not explain why.[/quote] Well like I said it's just my opinion on it. But the affects of some of the things talked about in the analogies are pretty small or negligible and don't have really have the means to affect other people around somebody like alcohol does. And you guys keep trying to counter each other with these things that don't really work. Just because there's alcohol free zones that doesn't mean that there necessarily should be zones free of other things too like whoever said meat trying to counter something. (But they do have vegetarian meals instead of meat free zones because it works for that situation and a meat free zone doesn't really make sense there) Or trying to say that if this percentage wants to be free of something then the same percentage of the campus area should be free of that doesn't really work either because there are probably alternative solutions that would work better. Like I said these things are different things and most should probably be looked at separately for something that works the best for it instead of grouping everything together and trying apply the same solution. But both sides here are trying to apply the same solution and outcome to this in all of their analogies to either prove their point of view right or the other sides point of view wrong. And I just don't get how that works with the things that are not anywhere being the same type of situation as the alcohol free zones.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] everywhere116 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] coolmike699 If 20% of people believe that polyester is wrong, then 20% of the campus should be polyester free. [/quote]I intend to quote this on every page so that people see what type of apologeticism we're dealing with here. Doin' Rad's job.[/quote]Oh yeah, I forgot, lol.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Hylebos [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] HALO12325 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Hylebos [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] NewRadical12 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Hylebos ...Why are people upset by this again?[/quote]Minority whims infringing upon majority freedoms...[/quote]Yeah, no. You're just being a very silly person and making a huge deal over something that most universities have had for a very long while. As we speak I myself am sitting in my room on the second floor of the Ridgeway Kappa Dorm at Western Washington University. Guess what? The entire floor is Alcohol Free. We all checked a little box when we applied for dorm rooms that said we would be cool with living in an Alcohol Free Community. Nobody forced us to live here. Does it bother you that if you were to come to visit me, you wouldn't be able to drink to your heart's content? It shouldn't bother you at all, because while you have the freedom to drink, the university has the freedom to do what it wants with it's dorms. Because, you know, it's the University's Dorm, not yours. If your definition of freedom is being allowed to drink wherever the hell you want, then I really pity you.[/quote] That's different. If the students and staff wished it to happen, that's fine. But clearly these students want to drink, and why should 20% outweigh 80%? If the staff and students are ok with drinking, whose right is it to suggest that areas which now have students that drink must be deemed alcohol free zones? That's wrong. No one's forcing the 20% to drink, and even then, it's not like every single area is covered with drinkers. If they want to have their own place, they can, but don't make areas which students currently use to drink alcohol free zones.[/quote]Who the hell said that the change was going to occur overnight? The article most certainetly didn't suggest that. They aren't going to walk on up to a dorm and say to the students who have been living there for the past half year "Derp Derp You guys can't drink Alcohol anymore Derp Derp." If an alcohol free zone was to be implemented, they would likely set aside a couple floors of some of their dorms to be alcohol free communities like mine. Students would be able to sign up for said communities, and at the start of the school year, those students would be able to move into those areas. It wouldn't suddenly displace anyone who wants to enjoy Alcohol at all, because they would simply sign up for one of the other dorms. It truly is a non issue.[/quote] If we're talking about a floor that you are informed beforehand that drinking is not permitted (before you sign up for residence), then that's fine. Any sort of attempts to change anything besides a floor or so of dorms is infringing upon the rights of the many for the few.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] coolmike699 If 20% of people believe that polyester is wrong, then 20% of the campus should be polyester free. [/quote]I intend to quote this on every page so that people see what type of apologeticism we're dealing with here. Doin' Rad's job.

Also, 20% of housing =/= 20% of campus (which is what coolmike was arguing for). [Edited on 04.14.2012 8:23 PM PDT]

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Hylebos Who the hell said that the change was going to occur overnight? The article most certainetly didn't suggest that. They aren't going to walk on up to a dorm and say to the students who have been living there for the past half year "Derp Derp You guys can't drink Alcohol anymore Derp Derp." If an alcohol free zone was to be implemented, they would likely set aside a couple floors of some of their dorms to be alcohol free communities like mine. Students would be able to sign up for said communities, and at the start of the school year, those students would be able to move into those areas. It wouldn't suddenly displace anyone who wants to enjoy Alcohol at all, because they would simply sign up for one of the other dorms. It truly is a non issue.[/quote]I think it's important to note that they used the word "zones," which, to me, sounds like public areas, not housing areas.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] HALO12325 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Hylebos [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] NewRadical12 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Hylebos ...Why are people upset by this again?[/quote]Minority whims infringing upon majority freedoms...[/quote]Yeah, no. You're just being a very silly person and making a huge deal over something that most universities have had for a very long while. As we speak I myself am sitting in my room on the second floor of the Ridgeway Kappa Dorm at Western Washington University. Guess what? The entire floor is Alcohol Free. We all checked a little box when we applied for dorm rooms that said we would be cool with living in an Alcohol Free Community. Nobody forced us to live here. Does it bother you that if you were to come to visit me, you wouldn't be able to drink to your heart's content? It shouldn't bother you at all, because while you have the freedom to drink, the university has the freedom to do what it wants with it's dorms. Because, you know, it's the University's Dorm, not yours. If your definition of freedom is being allowed to drink wherever the hell you want, then I really pity you.[/quote] That's different. If the students and staff wished it to happen, that's fine. But clearly these students want to drink, and why should 20% outweigh 80%? If the staff and students are ok with drinking, whose right is it to suggest that areas which now have students that drink must be deemed alcohol free zones? That's wrong. No one's forcing the 20% to drink, and even then, it's not like every single area is covered with drinkers. If they want to have their own place, they can, but don't make areas which students currently use to drink alcohol free zones.[/quote]Who the hell said that the change was going to occur overnight? The article most certainetly didn't suggest that. They aren't going to walk on up to a dorm and say to the students who have been living there for the past half year "Derp Derp You guys can't drink Alcohol anymore Derp Derp." If an alcohol free zone was to be implemented, they would likely set aside a couple floors of some of their dorms to be alcohol free communities like mine. Students would be able to sign up for said communities, and at the start of the school year, those students would be able to move into those areas. It wouldn't suddenly displace anyone who wants to enjoy Alcohol at all, because they would simply sign up for one of the other dorms. It truly is a non issue.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] coolmike699 For anyone of you who thinks this is so wrong... Name me one freedom without location and forum restrictions, besides freedom of thought (thoughts can't possibly offend or hurt others unless you say them). Go one, give me an example of one freedom that isn't balanced with the freedoms of others, creating unavoidable restrictions. [/quote]How can you possibly have argued for us for this long without understanding our position? Also, what "right" are the minority of students in this situation asserting?

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Hylebos [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] NewRadical12 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Hylebos ...Why are people upset by this again?[/quote]Minority whims infringing upon majority freedoms...[/quote]Yeah, no. You're just being a very silly person and making a huge deal over something that most universities have had for a very long while. As we speak I myself am sitting in my room on the second floor of the Ridgeway Kappa Dorm at Western Washington University. Guess what? The entire floor is Alcohol Free. We all checked a little box when we applied for dorm rooms that said we would be cool with living in an Alcohol Free Community. Nobody forced us to live here. Does it bother you that if you were to come to visit me, you wouldn't be able to drink to your heart's content? It shouldn't bother you at all, because while you have the freedom to drink, the university has the freedom to do what it wants with it's dorms. Because, you know, it's the University's Dorm, not yours. If your definition of freedom is being allowed to drink wherever the hell you want, then I really pity you.[/quote]Great. Now let me ask you, were alcohol-free dorms created because of the whims of a religious minority, or because the presence of the consumption of alcohol tends to cause problems in safety, tranquility, and health? I am very willing to bet it is the latter. I have no problems with alcohol-free zones and housing, but I do have problems with them being created for religious reasons.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Hylebos [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] NewRadical12 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Hylebos ...Why are people upset by this again?[/quote]Minority whims infringing upon majority freedoms...[/quote]Yeah, no. You're just being a very silly person and making a huge deal over something that most universities have had for a very long while. As we speak I myself am sitting in my room on the second floor of the Ridgeway Kappa Dorm at Western Washington University. Guess what? The entire floor is Alcohol Free. We all checked a little box when we applied for dorm rooms that said we would be cool with living in an Alcohol Free Community. Nobody forced us to live here. Does it bother you that if you were to come to visit me, you wouldn't be able to drink to your heart's content? It shouldn't bother you at all, because while you have the freedom to drink, the university has the freedom to do what it wants with it's dorms. Because, you know, it's the University's Dorm, not yours. If your definition of freedom is being allowed to drink wherever the hell you want, then I really pity you.[/quote] That's different. If the students and staff wished it to happen, that's fine. But clearly these students want to drink, and why should 20% outweigh 80%? If the staff and students are ok with drinking, whose right is it to suggest that areas which now have students that drink must be deemed alcohol free zones? That's wrong. No one's forcing the 20% to drink, and even then, it's not like every single area is covered with drinkers. If they want to have their own place, they can, but don't make areas which students currently use to drink alcohol free zones.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] coolmike699 For anyone of you who thinks this is so wrong... Name me one freedom without location and forum restrictions, besides freedom of thought (thoughts can't possibly offend or hurt others unless you say them). Go one, give me an example of one freedom that isn't balanced with the freedoms of others, creating unavoidable restrictions. [/quote]Irrelevant. We are not arguing that freedoms should not have boundaries. We are arguing that this is not a good reason to create a boundary. [quote]Every public institution in America has these restrictions. Hell, every public area in America has them. It's illegal to drink on the street. Public intoxication is illegal. Why? It's because we, as a culture, have made these restrictions in the name of our own sensitivities.[/quote]All for reasons that are more justifiable than the one given here. [Edited on 04.14.2012 8:13 PM PDT]

Alcohol shouldn't be legal anywhere. This is a good start.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] random no337 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] coolmike699 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] NewRadical12 If we were living in coolmike's America, there would be an area bigger than the state of Georgia where interracial marriage is not allowed... Who here wants that America?[/quote] Not all situations are the same. People don't choose to be -blam!-. And, of course, institutions who are against same sex marriages do not have to perform them. As a matter of fact, it's good that you mention this. In American law, we have a principle called [url=http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/12/us/supreme-court-recognizes-religious-exception-to-job-discrimination-laws.html?pagewanted=all]the ministerial exception.[/url] It allows religious groups to hire and fire employees according to religious laws. Basically, it allows a religious minority to set up their own areas where they can practice and support whatever beliefs they want. It's based on the idea that religious groups have just as much of a right to be away from a behavior they don't like as you have to do that behavior. We're already in Coolmike's America. [/quote]Do they have the right to do that on grounds that they do not own, grounds of a [i]public[/i] institution?[/quote] Every public institution in America has these restrictions. Hell, every public area in America has them. It's illegal to drink on the street. Public intoxication is illegal. Why? It's because we, as a culture, have made these restrictions in the name of our own sensitivities.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] LaDavid [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] everywhere116 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] LaDavid [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] NewRadical12 [url=http://www.gallup.com/poll/28417/most-americans-approve-interracial-marriages.aspx]Should 17% of America be free of the immoral stain on society that is interracial marriage[/url]? Rights are not supposed to be subject to majority or minority whims, [i]that's[/i] why.[/quote] Why do you assume that different situations should all be treated the same way or in the same manner? Shouldn't they be looked at separately and a decision made specifically for that situation instead of using the same basis for a number of different things? That's what I don't get about you guys bring up other stuff into this. Just because one thing is handled this way, that doesn't automatically mean everything should be handled in the same way. [/quote]It is analogy that is used to demonstrate the flaw in logic. While analogies can be inaccurate or otherwise inappropriate, is you believe this is so you should state why, as we have done with mike's "Smoking is restricted, so why is this such a big deal?" analogy.[/quote] I get that but you can't really use analogies like most/all of the ones so far to say that the situation at that school is wrong (or maybe even that it's right too) In my opinion none of the analogies really work for this sort of thing since not everything should be grouped together and be given the same outcome. Especially not some of the other things mentioned in this thread. [/quote]Then explain your reasons why. You cannot expect us to take your assertions that our analogies are inappropriate when you do not explain why.