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4/14/2012 9:56:38 PM
244
University to ban Alcohol because 20% of students are muslim
[url=http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2012/apr/12/university-alcohol-free-zones-muslim-students]University where 20% of students are Muslim considers alcohol-free zones
'We need to be more cautious about sex too,' says vice-chancellor of London Metropolitan University
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[quote]A London university is considering establishing alcohol-free zones on its campuses because so many of its students consider drinking to be immoral.
Professor Malcolm Gillies, vice-chancellor of London Metropolitan University, said the selling of alcohol was an issue of "cultural sensitivity" at his institution where a fifth of students are Muslim.
Speaking to a conference of university administrators in Manchester, he said that for many students, drinking alcohol was "an immoral experience".
"Because there is no majority ethnic group [at London Metropolitan], I think [selling alcohol] is playing to particular parts of our society much more [than to others]," he was reported as saying in the Times Higher Education magazine.
He said he saw little reason for the university to subsidise a student bar on campus when there were "at least half a dozen pubs within 200m".
He told the Guardian the makeup of his institution had changed considerably over the past few decades. In the past it had been "substantially Anglo Saxon now 20% of our students are Muslim," he said.
"We therefore need to rethink how we cater for that 21st-century balance. For many students now, coming to university is not about having a big drinking experience. The university bar is not as used as it used to be."[/quote]
[Edited on 04.14.2012 1:59 PM PDT]
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Omega Gamma [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] coolmike699 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Hylebos [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Omega Gamma Great, let's also force our women to wear Burqas, not any position of authority an have NO rights what so ever. Sounds good.[/quote]People seriously can't be this stupid...[/quote] No, they are. [/quote] Welcome to Radical Islam in the Middle East.[/quote] I don't know exactly what started radical Islam in the middle east. But I know that it wasn't started by alcohol free zones.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] coolmike699 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Hylebos [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Omega Gamma Great, let's also force our women to wear Burqas, not any position of authority an have NO rights what so ever. Sounds good.[/quote]People seriously can't be this stupid...[/quote] No, they are. [/quote] Welcome to Radical Islam in the Middle East.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Hylebos [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] General Noobus Heaven forbid we allow the precious muslims to see these filthy westerners partaking in something as disgusting and harmful as drinking alcohol. Bunch of pedantic little -blam!-weasels.[/quote]Wow. Over Reaction much? Is the thought that there might be an area on a campus that you don't even go to where you aren't allowed to stand up on a table and chug your precious alcohol for all the world to see so intolerable?[/quote]You can't give in to their demands. First it starts off innocent enough, all the ask for is simple things that don't harm anyone, like alcohol-free zones. But eventually they're asking you to allow -blam!- like Sharia Law, oppression of women and non-believers, honour killings, people are getting acid thrown in their faces because someone got their jimmies rustled ect. At the rate England's going it will be a Muslim state in 30 years, the rest of Europe isn't far behind.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Rampant Tragedy That's dumb. If Muslims don't want to drink, then they can just not drink.[/quote]Or if you want to drink, you can just not live in the alcohol free dorms. Derp Derp Derp.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Heisenburg Muslims gonna muslim. This is -blam!- disgusting. Unfortunately this is happening everywhere, back in high school if you wanted a meat product from the canteen all that was available was halal food.[/quote] You know that Halal food is exactly the same as normal food. Its just that muslims and jews can eat it as its kosher. You arent losing anything by eating halal food.
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That's dumb. If Muslims don't want to drink, then they can just not drink.
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Muslims gonna muslim. This is -blam!- disgusting. Unfortunately this is happening everywhere, back in high school if you wanted a meat product from the canteen all that was available was halal food.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Hylebos [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Omega Gamma Great, let's also force our women to wear Burqas, not any position of authority an have NO rights what so ever. Sounds good.[/quote]People seriously can't be this stupid...[/quote] No, they are.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] General Noobus Heaven forbid we allow the precious muslims to see these filthy westerners partaking in something as disgusting and harmful as drinking alcohol. Bunch of pedantic little -blam!-weasels.[/quote]Wow. Over Reaction much? Is the thought that there might be an area on a campus that you don't even go to where you aren't allowed to stand up on a table and chug your precious alcohol for all the world to see so intolerable?
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Heaven forbid we allow the precious muslims to see these filthy westerners partaking in something as disgusting and harmful as drinking alcohol. Bunch of pedantic little -blam!-weasels.
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Theyre just creating a small alcohol free zone where non-drinkers can relax without the smell or sight of alcohol around them. This is normal everywhere, its only a big deal now because a larger percentage of non drinkers turned out to be muslim.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Omega Gamma Great, let's also force our women to wear Burqas, not any position of authority an have NO rights what so ever. Sounds good.[/quote]People seriously can't be this stupid...
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Great, let's also force our women to wear Burqas, not any position of authority an have NO rights what so ever. Sounds good.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] LaDavid It should be obvious what I was talking about if you read through this quote tower again. I kept it intact for that very reason. But it was in response to when you said, "[b][i]Religious groups do not get to have their "morality" trample the rights of those who do not wish to partake in their sects.[/i][/b]" And something else to add to that, why is their "morality" wrong but yours right? Because you are trying to limit them in the same way they are trying to limit others.[/quote]That's called the basic tenet of secularism. It is not a moral belief - it is one of policy. The "rightness" of the moralities is irrelevant. We're dealing with policy, not morality. My morality does not come into play here. [quote]But then aren't your personal beliefs infringing on their "freedoms" to try and have things as they want them? Practically anything you do is going to infringe on somebody's "freedoms" somewhere. And not every "freedom" is good just because it's a "freedom" either. Do you think that there should be no limitations? Or where do you draw the lines on the limitations and ho do you even chose limitations on these "freedoms"? (If you do believe that there should be limitations)[/quote]They are allowed to try to get things the way they want them to provided they do so peacefully and legally, sure, but they don't have the right to succeed. And I damn well have the right to try to stop them. Of course there are some limitations on freedom. Not offending people is not one of them. I have the right to offend whomever I want and I will gladly defend that right with my life.
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[quote]It should be obvious what I was talking about if you read through this quote tower again. I kept it intact for that very reason. But it was in response to when you said, "Religious groups do not get to have their "morality" trample the rights of those who do not wish to partake in their sects." And something else to add to that, why is their "morality" wrong but yours right? Because you are trying to limit them in the same way they are trying to limit others. [/quote]I hope you understand the difference between limiting religious expression and limiting religious oppression of the non-religious based on their own morality. [quote]But then aren't your personal beliefs infringing on their "freedoms" to try and have things as they want them?[/quote]Because they are infringing on someone's personal right. We are trying to prevent that. It is in no way infringing on religious freedom. [quote]Practically anything you do is going to infringe on somebody's "freedoms" somewhere. And not every "freedom" is good just because it's a "freedom" either. Do you think that there should be no limitations? Or where do you draw the lines on the limitations and ho do you even chose limitations on these "freedoms"? (If you do believe that there should be limitations)[/quote] Oh dear Talos, go back and read the thread and find out what our position actually is.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] NewRadical12 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] LaDavid [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] NewRadical12 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] LaDavid [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] NewRadical12 Almost exclusively in the context of private religious organizations. This is not a private religious organization. Religious groups do not get to have their "morality" trample the rights of those who do not wish to partake in their sects.[/quote] Is that just because you don't like it, or is there some other reason?[/quote]You're going to have to be more specific.[/quote] Is it just because you don't like religion or was there something else?[/quote]Is [i]what[/i] because of that? My position on this issue? No, it's because it appears to me that some group is attempting to restrict the personal freedoms due to their personal beliefs.[/quote] It should be obvious what I was talking about if you read through this quote tower again. I kept it intact for that very reason. But it was in response to when you said, "[b][i]Religious groups do not get to have their "morality" trample the rights of those who do not wish to partake in their sects.[/i][/b]" And something else to add to that, why is their "morality" wrong but yours right? Because you are trying to limit them in the same way they are trying to limit others. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] NewRadical12 I believe in a secular society - one in which religious dictates have no influence on public policy. There are secular way that I have already listed by which people of every belief system can benefit, and those are good reasons to support those policies. Catering to the desire of a religious or moral minority not to be "offended" is not a good reason to shape policy. My personal beliefs dictate this, yes, but the key difference is that they are not designed to inhibit freedom, but to advance, preserve, and protect it. The same cannot be said of the group in question in this article.[/quote] But then aren't your personal beliefs infringing on their "freedoms" to try and have things as they want them? Practically anything you do is going to infringe on somebody's "freedoms" somewhere. And not every "freedom" is good just because it's a "freedom" either. Do you think that there should be no limitations? Or where do you draw the lines on the limitations and ho do you even chose limitations on these "freedoms"? (If you do believe that there should be limitations)
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[quote]He said he saw little reason for the university to subsidise a student bar on campus when there were "at least half a dozen pubs within 200m".[/quote] Ding, our winner. If you can't walk 200m to a pub, you probably don't need the calories from beer.
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If you don't like their rules I recommend finding a college you will like.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] xGHOST270x [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] M_Power Couldn't the Muslims just...you know...not drink alcohol? Or is that not retarded enough? A whining minority shouldn't have to ruin it for everyone.[/quote] This man. He makes sense. [/quote] I like to think I speak knowledge, with few words.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] LaDavid [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] NewRadical12 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] LaDavid [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] NewRadical12 Almost exclusively in the context of private religious organizations. This is not a private religious organization. Religious groups do not get to have their "morality" trample the rights of those who do not wish to partake in their sects.[/quote] Is that just because you don't like it, or is there some other reason?[/quote]You're going to have to be more specific.[/quote] Is it just because you don't like religion or was there something else?[/quote]Is [i]what[/i] because of that? My position on this issue? No, it's because it appears to me that some group is attempting to restrict the personal freedoms due to their personal beliefs. [quote][quote][b]Posted by:[/b] NewRadical12 I have already said that I object to the reasoning, not the ultimate outcome. I have already said, repeatedly, that there certainly are perfectly agreeable and legitimate reasons to restrict alcohol form time to time and place to place. My objection is that personal moral (or religious) edicts, beliefs, and dogmas be allowed to trample on the freedoms of those who do not share those beliefs. The religious are in no way being harmed by the presence of alcohol simply because it is against their religion to consume it. Wanting an absence of alcohol to make an area more peaceful and safe is acceptable because peace and safety are benefits that can be enjoyed by all students. The lack of some sort of religious or moral offense is not if one does not share those convictions.[/quote] Why is it that you just object to religion but find different reasons acceptable otherwise? How is this different from you not wanting anything religious to have any say apparently in anything? (Or that's the impression I'm getting from you anyway. If that impression is wrong then please say so.) Is that not your own "personal moral (or religious) edicts, beliefs, and dogmas"? And how is using religion as a basis any different form using anything else as a basis? [/quote]I believe in a secular society - one in which religious dictates have no influence on public policy. There are secular way that I have already listed by which people of every belief system can benefit, and those are good reasons to support those policies. Catering to the desire of a religious or moral minority not to be "offended" is not a good reason to shape policy. My personal beliefs dictate this, yes, but the key difference is that they are not designed to inhibit freedom, but to advance, preserve, and protect it. The same cannot be said of the group in question in this article.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] NewRadical12 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] LaDavid [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] NewRadical12 Almost exclusively in the context of private religious organizations. This is not a private religious organization. Religious groups do not get to have their "morality" trample the rights of those who do not wish to partake in their sects.[/quote] Is that just because you don't like it, or is there some other reason?[/quote]You're going to have to be more specific.[/quote] Is it just because you don't like religion or was there something else? [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] NewRadical12 I have already said that I object to the reasoning, not the ultimate outcome. I have already said, repeatedly, that there certainly are perfectly agreeable and legitimate reasons to restrict alcohol form time to time and place to place. My objection is that personal moral (or religious) edicts, beliefs, and dogmas be allowed to trample on the freedoms of those who do not share those beliefs. The religious are in no way being harmed by the presence of alcohol simply because it is against their religion to consume it. Wanting an absence of alcohol to make an area more peaceful and safe is acceptable because peace and safety are benefits that can be enjoyed by all students. The lack of some sort of religious or moral offense is not if one does not share those convictions.[/quote] Why is it that you just object to religion but find different reasons acceptable otherwise? How is this different from you not wanting anything religious to have any say apparently in anything? (Or that's the impression I'm getting from you anyway. If that impression is wrong then please say so.) Is that not your own "personal moral (or religious) edicts, beliefs, and dogmas"? And how is using religion as a basis any different from using anything else as a basis? [Edited on 04.14.2012 10:21 PM PDT]
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] LaDavid [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] NewRadical12 Almost exclusively in the context of private religious organizations. This is not a private religious organization. Religious groups do not get to have their "morality" trample the rights of those who do not wish to partake in their sects.[/quote] Is that just because you don't like it, or is there some other reason?[/quote]You're going to have to be more specific. [quote]Also, what is the difference between somebody using religion as a basis for this and somebody using some other non-religious reason? Would it be acceptable to you if it wasn't for religious reasons, and if yes, why? Why is that basis shunned but other acceptable? (Assuming they both arrive to the same outcome in the end.)[/quote]I have already said that I object to the reasoning, not the ultimate outcome. I have already said, repeatedly, that there certainly are perfectly agreeable and legitimate reasons to restrict alcohol form time to time and place to place. My objection is that personal moral (or religious) edicts, beliefs, and dogmas be allowed to trample on the freedoms of those who do not share those beliefs. The religious are in no way being harmed by the presence of alcohol simply because it is against their religion to consume it. Wanting an absence of alcohol to make an area more peaceful and safe is acceptable because peace and safety are benefits that can be enjoyed by all students. The lack of some sort of religious or moral offense is not if one does not share those convictions.
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Why not allow it because 80% aren't Muslim? Last i checked 80% > 20% and majority rules.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] NewRadical12 Almost exclusively in the context of private religious organizations. This is not a private religious organization. Religious groups do not get to have their "morality" trample the rights of those who do not wish to partake in their sects.[/quote] Is that just because you don't like it, or is there some other reason? Also, what is the difference between somebody using religion as a basis for this and somebody using some other non-religious reason? Would it be acceptable to you if it wasn't for religious reasons, and if yes, why? Why is that basis shunned but other acceptable? (Assuming they both arrive to the same outcome in the end.) [Edited on 04.14.2012 9:45 PM PDT]
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] coolmike699 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] NewRadical12 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] coolmike699 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] NewRadical12 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] coolmike699 For anyone of you who thinks this is so wrong... Name me one freedom without location and forum restrictions, besides freedom of thought (thoughts can't possibly offend or hurt others unless you say them). Go one, give me an example of one freedom that isn't balanced with the freedoms of others, creating unavoidable restrictions. [/quote]How can you possibly have argued for us for this long without understanding our position? Also, what "right" are the minority of students in this situation asserting?[/quote] Their right to have a space to practice their religion freely, which they cannot do with alcohol around? Like I said, this is a balancing act. The non drinking students' right to have a space to be away from alcohol vs. the drinkers' right to drink. Since the students are free to choose where they live, and the students who drink can live in areas that allow it, the non drinkers' rights outweigh the drinker's rights [i]in the alcohol free areas.[/i] The reverse is true in the areas where alcohol is permitted.[/quote]The right to freely practice one's religion does not include the right to restrict the rights of others. Most universities have some sort of chapel wherein students can worship. It might be okay to disallow alcohol there, but disallowing alcohol in public areas of the university is not. [quote]You realize that the college isn't going to literally take the drinks out of the student's hands, right? The change will go into effect at the beginning of the next school year, and students who want to live in areas where alcohol is permitted will be given plenty of time to choose. [/quote]You realize that not once in the article was housing ever mentioned, right?[/quote] I assume that housing is included in "zones and events". And like I pointed out when I posted the Supreme Court article about the ministerial exception in American law, there are times when religious freedom can be used to restrict individual rights. [/quote]Almost exclusively in the context of private religious organizations. This is not a private religious organization. Religious groups do not get to have their "morality" trample the rights of those who do not wish to partake in their sects.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] NewRadical12 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] coolmike699 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] NewRadical12 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] coolmike699 For anyone of you who thinks this is so wrong... Name me one freedom without location and forum restrictions, besides freedom of thought (thoughts can't possibly offend or hurt others unless you say them). Go one, give me an example of one freedom that isn't balanced with the freedoms of others, creating unavoidable restrictions. [/quote]How can you possibly have argued for us for this long without understanding our position? Also, what "right" are the minority of students in this situation asserting?[/quote] Their right to have a space to practice their religion freely, which they cannot do with alcohol around? Like I said, this is a balancing act. The non drinking students' right to have a space to be away from alcohol vs. the drinkers' right to drink. Since the students are free to choose where they live, and the students who drink can live in areas that allow it, the non drinkers' rights outweigh the drinker's rights [i]in the alcohol free areas.[/i] The reverse is true in the areas where alcohol is permitted.[/quote]The right to freely practice one's religion does not include the right to restrict the rights of others. Most universities have some sort of chapel wherein students can worship. It might be okay to disallow alcohol there, but disallowing alcohol in public areas of the university is not. [quote]You realize that the college isn't going to literally take the drinks out of the student's hands, right? The change will go into effect at the beginning of the next school year, and students who want to live in areas where alcohol is permitted will be given plenty of time to choose. [/quote]You realize that not once in the article was housing ever mentioned, right?[/quote] I assume that housing is included in "zones and events". And like I pointed out when I posted the Supreme Court article about the ministerial exception in American law, there are times when religious freedom can be used to restrict individual rights.
