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4/14/2012 9:56:38 PM
244
University to ban Alcohol because 20% of students are muslim
[url=http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2012/apr/12/university-alcohol-free-zones-muslim-students]University where 20% of students are Muslim considers alcohol-free zones
'We need to be more cautious about sex too,' says vice-chancellor of London Metropolitan University
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[quote]A London university is considering establishing alcohol-free zones on its campuses because so many of its students consider drinking to be immoral.
Professor Malcolm Gillies, vice-chancellor of London Metropolitan University, said the selling of alcohol was an issue of "cultural sensitivity" at his institution where a fifth of students are Muslim.
Speaking to a conference of university administrators in Manchester, he said that for many students, drinking alcohol was "an immoral experience".
"Because there is no majority ethnic group [at London Metropolitan], I think [selling alcohol] is playing to particular parts of our society much more [than to others]," he was reported as saying in the Times Higher Education magazine.
He said he saw little reason for the university to subsidise a student bar on campus when there were "at least half a dozen pubs within 200m".
He told the Guardian the makeup of his institution had changed considerably over the past few decades. In the past it had been "substantially Anglo Saxon now 20% of our students are Muslim," he said.
"We therefore need to rethink how we cater for that 21st-century balance. For many students now, coming to university is not about having a big drinking experience. The university bar is not as used as it used to be."[/quote]
[Edited on 04.14.2012 1:59 PM PDT]
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] random no337 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] coolmike699 ..by not letting them have their own freedom to be away from drinking.[/quote]Are you implying that they are unable to be away from drinking currently? It's called [i]not going to the bloody places where you see people drinking[/i]. [b]This is not a difficult concept.[/b][/quote] Right. Those places being alcohol free zones. Are you implying that people who want to drink can't simply [i]not go to the bloody places that are alcohol free[/i]? It really isn't a difficult concept. That's why I'm so confused right now.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] random no337 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] coolmike699 ..by not letting them have their own freedom to be away from drinking.[/quote]Are you implying that they are unable to be away from drinking currently? It's called [i]not going to the bloody places where you see people drinking[/i]. [b]This is not a difficult concept.[/b][/quote]Exactly. They're not a captive audience. There are plenty of Muslims who find the concept of free speech immoral, yet I highly doubt anybody wants to create free speech-free zones for them...
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] HALO12325 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] coolmike699 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] HALO12325 Why is this still going on? Ok Coolmike, listen. Cultural sensitivity is cool as long as you don't have to limit people's freedoms. I'll give you an acceptable example of it. Let's say that there are a lot of Indians going to a university. Since they can't have beef, they ask for cow-free hamburgers, but still allow Christians and Jews to have their beef. See? That's fine. It's not fine when they say, you can't have beef hamburgers because it goes against our beliefs and values. Do you get me? Good. When you have to limit people's freedoms for the beliefs of others, we have a problem. [/quote] Freedom is a balancing act. It is not an absolute. Freedoms have to be balanced, and compromises have to be made. This "my way only" thing is just attempting to control another group, by not letting them have their own freedom to be away from drinking. If 20% of students wanted a vegan area, then 20% of the eating area would be meat free. You could have your beef, in the areas that allow it. If 20% of the student body wants to be away from drinking, then 20% of the campus facility should be alcohol free. Does that limit the freedoms of the people who really want to drink in certain buildings? Yes, in a very minor way. But society is a balancing act like that. You can't have your way 100% of the time. The university is free to set their rules according to what the students want. The students are free to follow those rules. Every society has limits on its freedoms. Again, it's called location and forum theory. [/quote] Their dorms are alcohol free I'd bet, and so are their friends's dorms. It's not like when they step outside their lecture hall there are drinking parties or something. Here's the thing. Drinking is an extremely accepted norm in English society. Imagine if I tried to live in Korea and I demanded that there be rice free zones in the university I attend because I managed to get the other foreigners (who somehow make 20% of the university) to get rid of rice. Is that fair? No. But with your logic it is. When you come to a country, you ADAPT, not CHANGE the host country to fit your desires and will.[/quote] If you think that having a non drinking zone is changing the entire country, then you're simply scaring yourself with your own hyperbole. Why wouldn't making a Korean university 20% rice free for 20% of students be unfair? Sounds like the very definition of fair to me. A group doesn't like something, so they get an area proportional to the size of the group where that can be free from it.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] coolmike699 ..by not letting them have their own freedom to be away from drinking.[/quote]Are you implying that they are unable to be away from drinking currently? It's called [i]not going to the bloody places where you see people drinking[/i]. [b]This is not a difficult concept.[/b]
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] coolmike699 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] NewRadical12 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] coolmike699 If 20% of people believe that polyester is wrong, then 20% of the campus should be polyester free. [/quote]I intend to quote this on every page so that people see what type of apologeticism we're dealing with here.[/quote] What doesn't make sense about this again? 20% wants something, 20% gets it. Add that too, so we have both sides. [/quote][url=http://www.gallup.com/poll/28417/most-americans-approve-interracial-marriages.aspx]Should 17% of America be free of the immoral stain on society that is interracial marriage[/url]? Rights are not supposed to be subject to majority or minority whims, [i]that's[/i] why.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] NewRadical12 I can already see the future of college registration and orientation: -Fill out housing forms -Sign up for classes -Pledge to fraternities and sororities -Meet with your advisors -Fill out a complete list of everything you find morally objectionable so that the university can figure out how to properly partition and sequester off their campus to meet every fascistic moral whim of every student... It would be great! [/quote] I'm paying $40,000 per year for college. You're goddamn right I should have places where my morals are respected. And if this college didn't, I would go somewhere else. Just like the college in London wants to avoid. We aren't talking about "every moral whim" of every student. We're talking about 20% of students collectively deciding that they want something, and a compromise being made. Why shouldn't a group of students be allowed to set rules for a place they live?
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] coolmike699 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] HALO12325 Why is this still going on? Ok Coolmike, listen. Cultural sensitivity is cool as long as you don't have to limit people's freedoms. I'll give you an acceptable example of it. Let's say that there are a lot of Indians going to a university. Since they can't have beef, they ask for cow-free hamburgers, but still allow Christians and Jews to have their beef. See? That's fine. It's not fine when they say, you can't have beef hamburgers because it goes against our beliefs and values. Do you get me? Good. When you have to limit people's freedoms for the beliefs of others, we have a problem. [/quote] Freedom is a balancing act. It is not an absolute. Freedoms have to be balanced, and compromises have to be made. This "my way only" thing is just attempting to control another group, by not letting them have their own freedom to be away from drinking. If 20% of students wanted a vegan area, then 20% of the eating area would be meat free. You could have your beef, in the areas that allow it. If 20% of the student body wants to be away from drinking, then 20% of the campus facility should be alcohol free. Does that limit the freedoms of the people who really want to drink in certain buildings? Yes, in a very minor way. But society is a balancing act like that. You can't have your way 100% of the time. The university is free to set their rules according to what the students want. The students are free to follow those rules. Every society has limits on its freedoms. Again, it's called location and forum theory. [/quote] Their dorms are alcohol free I'd bet, and so are their friends's dorms. It's not like when they step outside their lecture hall there are drinking parties or something. Here's the thing. Drinking is an extremely accepted norm in English society. Imagine if I tried to live in Korea and I demanded that there be rice free zones in the university I attend because I managed to get the other foreigners (who somehow make 20% of the university) to get rid of rice. Is that fair? No. But with your logic it is. When you come to a country, you ADAPT, not CHANGE the host country to fit your desires and will.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] NewRadical12 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] coolmike699 If 20% of people believe that polyester is wrong, then 20% of the campus should be polyester free. [/quote]I intend to quote this on every page so that people see what type of apologeticism we're dealing with here.[/quote] What doesn't make sense about this again? 20% wants something, 20% gets it. Add that too, so we have both sides.
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Kind of undecided really, but 20% =/= a majority by a long shot.
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I can already see the future of college registration and orientation: -Fill out housing forms -Sign up for classes -Pledge to fraternities and sororities -Meet with your advisors -Fill out a complete list of everything you find morally objectionable so that the university can figure out how to properly partition and sequester off their campus to meet every fascistic moral whim of every student... It would be great!
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] BOB THE DOCTER [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] destroys u [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] BOB THE DOCTER if you want to drink go to the pub. a university is a school. one should not rely on it for a place to drink.[/quote] If you want to eat, go to a restaurant. A university is a school; one should not rely on it for a place to drink.[/quote]your analogy is unfinished and confusing.. and one would go to the kitchen. being the primary source of food one can eat.[/quote] That's irrelevant.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Chupanebre627 My mother is always going on about how Muslims are trying to take over the world. Superstitious nonsense really, but you can see her point I suppose... It isn't about catering for everyone, it's about free-will. You want to drink, drink. You don't want to drink, then don't -blam!- drink. If someone else is drinking and you don't drink, don't have -blam!- hissy fit.[/quote] This works both ways, bud. If the students have said they don't want drinking in one building, then don't have a -blam!- hissy fit either. You have the free will to go somewhere where drinking is allowed. If you are going to tell others to not be sensitive and get over it, then you have to be willing to do the same.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] HALO12325 Why is this still going on? Ok Coolmike, listen. Cultural sensitivity is cool as long as you don't have to limit people's freedoms. I'll give you an acceptable example of it. Let's say that there are a lot of Indians going to a university. Since they can't have beef, they ask for cow-free hamburgers, but still allow Christians and Jews to have their beef. See? That's fine. It's not fine when they say, you can't have beef hamburgers because it goes against our beliefs and values. Do you get me? Good. When you have to limit people's freedoms for the beliefs of others, we have a problem. [/quote] Freedom is a balancing act. It is not an absolute. Freedoms have to be balanced, and compromises have to be made. This "my way only" thing is just attempting to control another group, by not letting them have their own freedom to be away from drinking. If 20% of students wanted a vegan area, then 20% of the eating area would be meat free. You could have your beef, in the areas that allow it. If 20% of the student body wants to be away from drinking, then 20% of the campus facility should be alcohol free. Does that limit the freedoms of the people who really want to drink in certain buildings? Yes, in a very minor way. But society is a balancing act like that. You can't have your way 100% of the time. The university is free to set their rules according to what the students want. The students are free to follow those rules. Every society has limits on its freedoms. Again, it's called location and forum theory.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] coolmike699 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] NewRadical12 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] coolmike699 You are free to go to an area that provides alcohol. Again, it's called location and forum theory. Just because you have a right to do something doesn't mean you have a right to do it wherever you want.[/quote][url=http://www.google.com/search?q=location+and+forum+theory&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a]Odd, I don't see that "theory" referenced anywhere...[/url] Regardless of whether or not you just made up that term, [/quote] [url=http://www.scribd.com/doc/65337232/55/THE-FORUM-THEORY]Just posted this link.[/url][/quote]Great. Not really consequential, though, since I already conceded that point.
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My mother is always going on about how Muslims are trying to take over the world. Superstitious nonsense really, but you can see her point I suppose... It isn't about catering for everyone, it's about free-will. You want to drink, drink. You don't want to drink, then don't -blam!- drink. If someone else is drinking and you don't drink, don't have -blam!- hissy fit.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] NewRadical12 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] coolmike699 You are free to go to an area that provides alcohol. Again, it's called location and forum theory. Just because you have a right to do something doesn't mean you have a right to do it wherever you want.[/quote][url=http://www.google.com/search?q=location+and+forum+theory&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a]Odd, I don't see that "theory" referenced anywhere...[/url] Regardless of whether or not you just made up that term, [/quote] [url=http://www.scribd.com/doc/65337232/55/THE-FORUM-THEORY]Just posted this link.[/url]
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] destroys u [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] BOB THE DOCTER if you want to drink go to the pub. a university is a school. one should not rely on it for a place to drink.[/quote] If you want to eat, go to a restaurant. A university is a school; one should not rely on it for a place to drink.[/quote]your analogy is unfinished and confusing.. and one would go to the kitchen. being the primary source of food one can eat.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Ric_Adbur I will never understand why people feel it is necessary to force others to abide by their own beliefs.[/quote] That's religion for you man. Forceful and Bias
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] coolmike699 If 20% of people believe that polyester is wrong, then 20% of the campus should be polyester free. [/quote]I intend to quote this on every page so that people see what type of apologeticism we're dealing with here. [Edited on 04.14.2012 7:27 PM PDT]
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Why is this still going on? Ok Coolmike, listen. Cultural sensitivity is cool as long as you don't have to limit people's freedoms. I'll give you an acceptable example of it. Let's say that there are a lot of Indians going to a university. Since they can't have beef, they ask for cow-free hamburgers, but still allow Christians and Jews to have their beef. See? That's fine. It's not fine when they say, you can't have beef hamburgers because it goes against our beliefs and values. Do you get me? Good. When you have to limit people's freedoms for the beliefs of others, we have a problem.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] BOB THE DOCTER if you want to drink go to the pub. a university is a school. one should not rely on it for a place to drink.[/quote] If you want to eat, go to a restaurant. A university is a school; one should not rely on it for a place to drink.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Potato Joe First the cigarette pack labeling ban and now this. I feel sad for people who live in Oceania, I mean London.[/quote] Clever!
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if you want to drink go to the pub. a university is a school. one should not rely on it for a place to drink.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] coolmike699 If 20% of people believe that polyester is wrong, then 20% of the campus should be polyester free. [/quote]Well, there you have it. Welcome to tyranny of the minority.
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That's ridiculous.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] coolmike699 You are free to go to an area that provides alcohol. Again, it's called location and forum theory. Just because you have a right to do something doesn't mean you have a right to do it wherever you want.[/quote][url=http://www.google.com/search?q=location+and+forum+theory&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a]Odd, I don't see that "theory" referenced anywhere...[/url] Regardless of whether or not you just made up that term, I agree that there are times and places where it is reasonable to restrict rights. It is reasonable, for example to not allow rifles at Presidential rallies for safety reasons. It is unreasonable, however, to have one group insist on infringing upon the public rights of others because it "[url=http://doodiepants.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/behead-those-who-insult-islam.jpg]offends them[/url]." [quote]Of course you haven't heard a convincing argument for cultural sensitivity, because you refuse to listen to them and insist on forcing your beliefs on everyone.[/quote] This is an asinine assertion. What belief am I forcing upon [i]anyone[/i]? It is clear to me that the only people forcing their beliefs on anybody in this conversation are those who profess the immorality of alcohol consumption. [quote]Cultural sensitivity is important because... people of other cultures exist. They pay to go to school, just like you would. They want an area where drinking is not allowed. This does not stop you from drinking anywhere else. Why would people who want to drink go to an area full of people who don't? [/quote]Just because they want something does not mean they should have it. [quote]I say 'I want an area where no one is drinking for me and my friends. You say 'I want an area where my friends and I can drink". Why shouldn't you both have what you want? If I want to play my stereo in the library, should I be allowed to? [/quote]Your analogies always spectacularly fail. The nature of the library requires that it be quiet enough to allow for study. It is not because some minority thinks that boomboxes are "immoral." [Edited on 04.14.2012 7:23 PM PDT]
