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4/9/2011 1:52:46 AM
875
"Think Twice" Map feedback thread (now available)
[quote][b]Updated [url=http://www.bungie.net/Forums/posts.aspx?postID=58880594&postRepeater1-p=1#58880616]Thread Disclaimer[/url] below[/b][/quote]
Download[url=http://www.bungie.net/Stats/Reach/FileDetails.aspx?fid=16952073&player=A%203%20Legged%20Goat][b] "Think Twice"[/b][/url]
[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRuXUdYk6TA]Think Twice gameplay montage[/url] by riftegifle
-[url=http://carnage.bungie.org/haloforum/halo.forum.pl?read=1067705]Halo.Bungie.Org post[/url]
-[url=http://www.reachingperfection.com/2011/04/think-twice.html]ReachingPerfection Post[/url]
-[url=http://www.forgehub.com/forum/reach-competitive-maps/124573-think-twice.html]Forgehub Thread[/url]
-[url=http://halocharts.com/grouppages.php?group_id=4984&page=Think%20Twice]HaloCharts Satryros thread[/url] (public page)
[quote][b]Screenshots[/b]
[url=http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5228/5653850654_8dfd427242_b.jpg]Red Base[/url]
[url=http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5304/5653850826_91fb64ae16_b.jpg]Blue Base[/url]
[url=http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5150/5653279813_62b8a4d060_b.jpg]Green Room[/url]
[url=http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5222/5653279655_cb9996118a_b.jpg]Gold Room[/url]
[url=http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5146/5653279717_50d3b6f206_b.jpg]Top Center[/url]
[url=http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5230/5653279511_0852e4fb92_b.jpg]Bottom Center[/url]
[url=http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5063/5653427773_6054e6fdc8_b.jpg]Top and Bottom Levels[/url]
[/quote]
The Think Twice Public Beta has concluded. On behalf of the four of us, we thank all of you who participated in testing and posted feedback in this thread. Your comments helped the map nearly reach perfection. Our refined and polished design is now available for all to download and share. However, a map is never finished, so this thread will continue to serve as the feedback thread for Think Twice. Thanks again for all of your support.
To view the list of changes from Beta to now, as well as new videos, please see [url=http://www.bungie.net/Forums/posts.aspx?postID=58880594&postRepeater1-p=28#59369861]this post[/url].
[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CL-S3S2aXW8]Final Version Youtube Walkthrough[/url]
>[url=http://www.bungie.net/News/content.aspx?type=news&cid=31214]Public Beta on Comm Chatter[/url] (thanks for your support Urk!)
>[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJvNTnWPvlc]Beta Gameplay[/url] on youtube
[i]Think Twice[/i] is a simple, yet innovative competitive multiplayer map created by Sven Nietzsche, GodlyPerfection, Jonzorz 124, and myself. The public beta ran from April 11th 2011 to April 23rd 2011. We received constructive and profound feedback from many of the testers, which was invaluable in fine-tuning the map. We humbly thank all of the participants. Your comments have refined the map and made it much better.
[b]Beta Action-Shots[/b]
[url=http://www.bungie.net/Stats/Reach/FileDetails.aspx?fid=16392256&player=Sven Nietzsche]Battle for the Green Room[/url]
[url=http://www.bungie.net/Stats/Reach/FileDetails.aspx?fid=16392252&player=Sven Nietzsche]Whoever wins gets the Healthpack![/url]
[url=http://www.bungie.net/Stats/Reach/FileDetails.aspx?fid=16392287&player=Sven Nietzsche] I guess I lose...[/url]
[url=http://www.bungie.net/Stats/Reach/FileDetails.aspx?fid=16392312&player=Sven Nietzsche] Obi! I told you not to feed the Dinos!![/url]
[url=http://www.bungie.net/Stats/Reach/FileDetails.aspx?fid=16392311&player=Sven Nietzsche]Soo Much Awsome![/url]
[quote][/quote]
[Edited on 04.27.2011 8:04 AM PDT]
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] General_Rafa Goat, will you personally be in any beta playtests this weekend? I would like to play you on this map, provided there is Armor Lock. :P[/quote] My Reach disc is every where except for in one piece inside my Xbox, so no I wont be able to playtest anytime soon. I'm working on getting a new one.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] CHANGINGBULLET1 Yo goat there you go again making accusations against me What I said was if you read more in details was that I said that the BETA failed the first time so what I am asking YOU pudding head is this "What if the second attempt fails then what are you going to do? Cry to mommy?" I think you need to get a better confirmation before bragging what you do[/quote]Failed? I'm pretty sure it was pretty successful. The general feedback from the Beta was very positive, with minor complaints towards some of the wall locations and the power weapons. He's not bragging, he wants the general forum's opinion on his map so that he can make it balanced for matchmaking. If you bothered reading his posts, you would know this. Of course, you didn't, and now you're on some strange rant that I don't even know what the cause of it was.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] araujoisrael up9ghiwrbgvup9y498tgbu95bgfu9rgm8bt4hg8n4it5gni4po53g9i4u3bhn4u9gbnu9453bn45ign4iughn4986hng8'u0t3hng8u3jnmgu093jthniu93nrg9vuewnv9uwvn9u2rnvu93rnvu9w4ht35yt7835gfe8yrvhaw3y98f772eb4d98fwrgbfwu9rgbf98ywb4v798wb8y4bfu8ebf78b4398f7qbh3g3765i5i4w7y46y4 117[/quote] Lol what is this I don't even
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Yo goat there you go again making accusations against me What I said was if you read more in details was that I said that the BETA failed the first time so what I am asking YOU pudding head is this "What if the second attempt fails then what are you going to do? Cry to mommy?" I think you need to get a better confirmation before bragging what you do
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up9ghiwrbgvup9y498tgbu95bgfu9rgm8bt4hg8n4it5gni4po53g9i4u3bhn4u9gbnu9453bn45ign4iughn4986hng8'u0t3hng8u3jnmgu093jthniu93nrg9vuewnv9uwvn9u2rnvu93rnvu9w4ht35yt7835gfe8yrvhaw3y98f772eb4d98fwrgbfwu9rgbf98ywb4v798wb8y4bfu8ebf78b4398f7qbh3g3765i5i4w7y46y4 117
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Goat, will you personally be in any beta playtests this weekend? I would like to play you on this map, provided there is Armor Lock. :P [Edited on 04.22.2011 11:11 PM PDT]
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] CHANGINGBULLET1 BUT I do NOT go around bragging about it. [/quote] So you overlooked everything relevant to testing and feedback in this thread and saw it as an advertisement? [i]sigh[/i]
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[Okay so It could be that I'm tired and its late, but I just Could you further explain that 4th point. Are you trying to say that it's bad that this was a group forge or that it's bad that we are asking other peoples opinions? And who said we were bragging? And that last bit about sticking to the maps we already have or made of our own, what does that mean?[/quote] Jon I'd be willing to explain it no problem :) What I meant was that because of the chance we can create our own maps the way we want em to look and feel good about it. Bungie had added the FORGE in order to allow us to make a great looking map. For one example I made a fire fight map that is called "Killing Season". I made the map challenge a bit different in the shields to 200% and to have a bottomless clip so say if you use the needler or maching gun you can just hold down on the right trigger and it will fire non stop. I am proud of what I did BUT I do NOT go around bragging about it.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] CHANGINGBULLET1[/quote] Anybody who reads this thread and thinks that we are 'bragging' or 'bloating our egos' is gravely mistaken. This isn't about popularity, and it isn't about download counts. If you even read the OP, you'd know that I already addressed this. Downloads don't mean anything. Period. At all. Zip. Zero. Got that? They mean NOTHING! There are [i]terrible[/i] maps out there with 20k downloads simply because they have a catchy name such as "[i]ODST DROP POD DROP INTO THE CITY[/i]", or "[i]ASSAULT ON THE CONTROL ROOM REMAKE PERFECT REPLICA[/i]". Then when you download it, the map has terrible framerate drop, sloppy forging, and it doesn't even look a thing like it should. So let me repeat--Downloads mean [i]nothing[/i]. The purpose of a Beta test is to release an almost finished product and garner large-scale feedback from many different crowds before it is finalized. Every major release in media from software to movies have beta versions. The testers of these betas provide feedback for the developers so they can make the necessary changes and release a polished product. The 4 of us who built this map built it for Matchmaking. We're not building this for fame and we're not building it to brag that we can build maps. Hosting beta sessions is an opportunity that no serious Forger should ever pass up. Bungie does it with their maps. Why should we be different? Are you implying that Forge shouldn't be taken seriously? The only reason I play this game is to build maps for multiplayer. There will be many threads like this in the future because there are more maps to come. Reach shipped with many subpar maps, so it's the forgers' responsibility to build maps for matchmaking and have them tested by the community. This map was a spontaneous project. In the future, we will be gathering input on what the community would like to see in Matchmaking. Invasion on Highlands is a popular request, and so are good BTB and Invasion maps in general. If we didn't take our maps seriously enough to schedule deadlines and hold playtests, nobody would. The community needs to know that we mean business. We aren't throwing a bunch of forge pieces together in our spare time and sweet talking Bungie into liking it. We are designing actual maps for Matchmaking. In the future, I suggest you and other posters [i]think twice[/i] before accusing us of bloating our egos. There's more to this than e-peens. [Edited on 04.22.2011 11:03 PM PDT]
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] CHANGINGBULLET1 OK now it's my turn to speak. First of all I think that this 3 legged goat is nothing but a block head and here I will tell you why. 1. lets NOT forget that before the release of the full version of REACH came the BETA test. 2. It was stated if I can recall what was said that it was decided that for some reason the BETA failed. 3. When I saw the maps that are already made by Bungie, I was amazed as to how they made it look some what realistic. 4. The idea of creating your own maps is to create what "YOU WANT" as a map, so it is wise to share with people yes but to go around here and brag about it is foolish. ----------------------------------------------- So I would like to see the 3 legged goat stop his bull crap and just stick to the maps that we already have or made of our own.[/quote] Okay so It could be that I'm tired and its late, but I just read that post like five times and I'm not exactly sure as to what you are trying to say. I mean you no disrespect in asking these questions, I just honestly wasn't sure wha you meant. Could you further explain that 4th point. Are you trying to say that it's bad that this was a group forge or that it's bad that we are asking other peoples opinions? And who said we were bragging? And that last bit about sticking to the maps we already have or made of our own, what does that mean?
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OK now it's my turn to speak. First of all I think that this 3 legged goat is nothing but a block head and here I will tell you why. 1. lets NOT forget that before the release of the full version of REACH came the BETA test. 2. It was stated if I can recall what was said that it was decided that for some reason the BETA failed. 3. When I saw the maps that are already made by Bungie, I was amazed as to how they made it look some what realistic. 4. The idea of creating your own maps is to create what "YOU WANT" as a map, so it is wise to share with people yes but to go around here and brag about it is foolish. ----------------------------------------------- So I would like to see the 3 legged goat stop his bull crap and just stick to the maps that we already have or made of our own. [Edited on 04.22.2011 10:48 PM PDT]
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Epicly Uber You treat this map like it's something important, I mean, public betas, release dates...? Seriously?[/quote] Here's the thing, the way our maps play is incredibly important to us. We treat the testing and revising process very seriously because we want our maps to be as good as they can be. The public beta, sure that sounds a bit over the top but that's what it is called and that's what we were trying to do. We wanted your feedback, so we put the map out there as a beta, an unfinished product going through it's final stages of testing. The feedback we have received has been fantastic and you can see we have changes a lot in the latest version. As for the release date, well what is the point of having a beta, i.e. a map discussion and revision thread, if there was no projected date of release. Of course we need a release date, 1 because the people who have been waiting and testing for the final version deserve to know when they can expect to get their hands on the it and 2 because we as designers need deadlines, as Goat was saying it keeps us on track and motivated to get our work done by the due date.
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Giving the map official terms such as release and beta help us to think of it with a higher standard. It motivates us to work towards excellence and not overlook things or put off changes. Deadlines help as well. Just a few more days before everyone can get their hands on the finished product based on [i]your[/i] playtesting. Thanks again to all who were involved! We've got a few treats in store for players as well. [Edited on 04.22.2011 9:59 PM PDT]
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Ok guys I love this map but having a "Release Date" is a bit of Overkill...but either way I cant wait to see it finished. [Edited on 04.22.2011 8:33 PM PDT]
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You treat this map like it's something important, I mean, public betas, release dates...? Seriously?
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Looks much better than the first time I checked out the thread. I don't think it's good enough to be getting so much attention (yes I'm jealous) Maybe I'll make a thread for my super awesome map and see where that goes...
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After playing through it, I have gotten a better feel for it. I have to say that the movement between the bottom and top levels is excellent, however the outer circle is a little slow. I don't know how to describe it, but the outer passageways don't feel right with the rest of the map. If I was forging, I would add a ramp or something to each one and make a ledge, but that's just me. Other than that, everything seems to be fine. P.S. I am in the process of developing a map I call [url=http://www.bungie.net/Stats/Reach/FileDetails.aspx?fid=16798196&player=n00bk1ller117]Relay[/url]. I have playtested it with a few friends, but i am looking for feedback. If you could give it a spin, it would be greatly appreciated. There are [url=http://www.bungie.net/stats/reach/fileshare.aspx?player=Warhawk997&fc=0]pictures[/url] and a [url=http://www.bungie.net/Stats/Reach/FileDetails.aspx?fid=16851865&player=Warhawk997]walkthrough[/url] as well (not rendered).
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] TuefulHunden87 My bad, I missed a "btb" in his post. I read "community rotation". :P The side rooms have a lot of cover, but your extremely vulnerable in comparison when making the transition. I really find the incentive to travel through the middle much more enticing. Also, even though the hard cover in the center is minimal, you have to think of the geographically provided technical cover provided through the easy top/bottom transitions. That's plentiful enough cover IMO. I simply don't like the banks in the manner your using because it looks sloppy. Personal preference. I'd rather see a ramp rounded with two banks on the sides.[/quote] While I can see where you're coming from with the whole go to the center duke it out, die and repeat thing. I really have only seen that when the people in the game are still new to the map. Though I will admit there are times when I'm playing that I feel this pull toward the center right when I spawn. When that happens I have learned to assess the decision and usually I end up pushing the side rooms and then maybe pushing the center from the man cannons. But that's me and we all have different play styles and if the map happens to not fit yours that's unfortunate but it awesome to hear that you have given the map some time and who knows maybe down the road it will grow on you. Thank you for the feedback though it's nice have differing points of view.
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My bad, I missed a "btb" in his post. I read "community rotation". :P The side rooms have a lot of cover, but your extremely vulnerable in comparison when making the transition. I really find the incentive to travel through the middle much more enticing. Also, even though the hard cover in the center is minimal, you have to think of the geographically provided technical cover provided through the easy top/bottom transitions. That's plentiful enough cover IMO. I simply don't like the banks in the manner your using because it looks sloppy. Personal preference. I'd rather see a ramp rounded with two banks on the sides.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] TuefulHunden87 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Godly_Perfection [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] CombatJack0331 Just watched that youtube video of some guy walking around shooting the floor. If bungie even considers this map, not only are they skipping a ton of great ones, but showing they'll shove anything out there (as the community btb maps already show that). Looks cool and all, and bravo for all the hard work that was put into it, Lord knows I wouldn't have the time. But if that makes it into my community btb rotation I'll just go back to playing the same 4 maps over and over on the regular btb. The map just really looked boring. Real boring. Doesn't seem like much thought was put into it. Maps aren't just about trying to get a playable result, but one thats fun to explore and look at. This has that been there done that feeling. Good job, though there are hundreds out there more deserving. [/quote] First of all if you read the description, I shoot at everything that changed from the public beta version to the latest version. Second of all, this is not a BTB map it is a 4v4 map.[/quote] He's not saying its a BTB map. He's using the Community BTB as an example of Bungie allowing mediocre maps in. Watched the video as well... Still not down with this map. The middle halls still have too much cover and offer the most incentive for movement. There is little incentive to move around the outside of this map as the routes are lacking cover and the rooms themselves offer much cover and safety. As for flow, I find it to be dull and extremely repetitive. The only consistent flow this map has is to charge the middle, eventually die, respawn and charge again. Too much action in the center, not enough along the outside rooms. And I still don't agree with your choice of banks to use as ramps instead of actual ramps.[/quote] No he definitely said the following: [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] CombatJack0331 Looks cool and all, and bravo for all the hard work that was put into it, Lord knows I wouldn't have the time. But if that makes it into my community btb rotation I'll just go back to playing the same 4 maps over and over on the regular btb. The map just really looked boring. [/quote] And Tueful, there is only one piece of cover in the center and it isn't that large. How you can see that as too much cover is beyond me because without that there is no cover at all. I have an easy time shooting people out of the center because that column in the center provides very little cover period. And as you said the side rooms offer a lot of cover and a lot of safety. Because of this people use these rooms as a place to restore their shields, moving the chase from the center to the side rooms. Also the generators in gold room are a very popular top spot for people to hold on the map in general because it provides a ton of cover as well as being the same level as the center area. And you don't want us to use ramps in the center... you want us to create a bowl in the center. If you get tripped up on those banks, then that is the players fault for not having situational awareness. You can't cater to them for everything. And if you really want us to use ramps then the situation gets worse for players trying to strafe. At least with the bank ramps people do not get caught up on the sides while they are strafing. [Edited on 04.21.2011 7:15 AM PDT]
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Had a 3v3 at a LAN the other night, map plays really well for TS gametypes. Any issues I could address have been updated in the previous post. My major tiff was with the lack of an outside view and lack of coherancy as a result. But I'm glad to see it fixed and I anticipate such a map to make an eventual cameo in the rotation.
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Reminds me of some halo CE and halo 2 map cant remember which one though lol
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Godly_Perfection [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] CombatJack0331 Just watched that youtube video of some guy walking around shooting the floor. If bungie even considers this map, not only are they skipping a ton of great ones, but showing they'll shove anything out there (as the community btb maps already show that). Looks cool and all, and bravo for all the hard work that was put into it, Lord knows I wouldn't have the time. But if that makes it into my community btb rotation I'll just go back to playing the same 4 maps over and over on the regular btb. The map just really looked boring. Real boring. Doesn't seem like much thought was put into it. Maps aren't just about trying to get a playable result, but one thats fun to explore and look at. This has that been there done that feeling. Good job, though there are hundreds out there more deserving. [/quote] First of all if you read the description, I shoot at everything that changed from the public beta version to the latest version. Second of all, this is not a BTB map it is a 4v4 map.[/quote] He's not saying its a BTB map. He's using the Community BTB as an example of Bungie allowing mediocre maps in. Watched the video as well... Still not down with this map. The middle halls still have too much cover and offer the most incentive for movement. There is little incentive to move around the outside of this map as the routes are lacking cover and the rooms themselves offer much cover and safety. As for flow, I find it to be dull and extremely repetitive. The only consistent flow this map has is to charge the middle, eventually die, respawn and charge again. Too much action in the center, not enough along the outside rooms. And I still don't agree with your choice of banks to use as ramps instead of actual ramps.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] CombatJack0331 Just watched that youtube video of some guy walking around shooting the floor. If bungie even considers this map, not only are they skipping a ton of great ones, but showing they'll shove anything out there (as the community btb maps already show that). Looks cool and all, and bravo for all the hard work that was put into it, Lord knows I wouldn't have the time. But if that makes it into my community btb rotation I'll just go back to playing the same 4 maps over and over on the regular btb. The map just really looked boring. Real boring. Doesn't seem like much thought was put into it. Maps aren't just about trying to get a playable result, but one thats fun to explore and look at. This has that been there done that feeling. Good job, though there are hundreds out there more deserving. [/quote] First of all if you read the description, I shoot at everything that changed from the public beta version to the latest version. Second of all, this is not a BTB map it is a 4v4 map.
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I understand where you're coming from. Firstly, the video in the OP is showing the changes that have been made since the public beta version. You can see just how much the map has improved when you compare the two. We received substantial feedback and playtested the map dozens of times. By the time the public beta had arrived, we'd already ran more playtests than every single forged map in matchmaking combined. It's because of that opportunity that we were able to fine tune everything from spawns and weapons to objectives and geometry. I've seen many posters approach the thread and say "They've seen better", yet never on any of the occasions has anybody posted a 'better' map. I'm sure there are lots more great maps out there, but if you truly thought they were good you could post them here so they could be examined and submitted for Multiplayer. We're only in this to build maps for multiplayer. This map has a lot of replay value and is very neatly forged. From a design standpoint, it's a masterpiece. But gameplay to masses of completely new players has yet to be seen, and we're hoping that we get the go ahead to share it with those players. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] CombatJack0331 Just watched that youtube video of some guy walking around shooting the floor. If bungie even considers this map, not only are they skipping a ton of great ones, but showing they'll shove anything out there (as the community btb maps already show that). Looks cool and all, and bravo for all the hard work that was put into it, Lord knows I wouldn't have the time. But if that makes it into my community btb rotation I'll just go back to playing the same 4 maps over and over on the regular btb. The map just really looked boring. Real boring. Doesn't seem like much thought was put into it. Maps aren't just about trying to get a playable result, but one thats fun to explore and look at. This has that been there done that feeling. Good job, though there are hundreds out there more deserving. [/quote] [Edited on 04.20.2011 5:12 PM PDT]
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Just watched that youtube video of some guy walking around shooting the floor. If bungie even considers this map, not only are they skipping a ton of great ones, but showing they'll shove anything out there (as the community btb maps already show that). Looks cool and all, and bravo for all the hard work that was put into it, Lord knows I wouldn't have the time. But if that makes it into my community btb rotation I'll just go back to playing the same 4 maps over and over on the regular btb. The map just really looked boring. Real boring. Doesn't seem like much thought was put into it. Maps aren't just about trying to get a playable result, but one thats fun to explore and look at. This has that been there done that feeling. Good job, though there are hundreds out there more deserving.
