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4/9/2011 1:52:46 AM
875
"Think Twice" Map feedback thread (now available)
[quote][b]Updated [url=http://www.bungie.net/Forums/posts.aspx?postID=58880594&postRepeater1-p=1#58880616]Thread Disclaimer[/url] below[/b][/quote]
Download[url=http://www.bungie.net/Stats/Reach/FileDetails.aspx?fid=16952073&player=A%203%20Legged%20Goat][b] "Think Twice"[/b][/url]
[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRuXUdYk6TA]Think Twice gameplay montage[/url] by riftegifle
-[url=http://carnage.bungie.org/haloforum/halo.forum.pl?read=1067705]Halo.Bungie.Org post[/url]
-[url=http://www.reachingperfection.com/2011/04/think-twice.html]ReachingPerfection Post[/url]
-[url=http://www.forgehub.com/forum/reach-competitive-maps/124573-think-twice.html]Forgehub Thread[/url]
-[url=http://halocharts.com/grouppages.php?group_id=4984&page=Think%20Twice]HaloCharts Satryros thread[/url] (public page)
[quote][b]Screenshots[/b]
[url=http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5228/5653850654_8dfd427242_b.jpg]Red Base[/url]
[url=http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5304/5653850826_91fb64ae16_b.jpg]Blue Base[/url]
[url=http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5150/5653279813_62b8a4d060_b.jpg]Green Room[/url]
[url=http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5222/5653279655_cb9996118a_b.jpg]Gold Room[/url]
[url=http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5146/5653279717_50d3b6f206_b.jpg]Top Center[/url]
[url=http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5230/5653279511_0852e4fb92_b.jpg]Bottom Center[/url]
[url=http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5063/5653427773_6054e6fdc8_b.jpg]Top and Bottom Levels[/url]
[/quote]
The Think Twice Public Beta has concluded. On behalf of the four of us, we thank all of you who participated in testing and posted feedback in this thread. Your comments helped the map nearly reach perfection. Our refined and polished design is now available for all to download and share. However, a map is never finished, so this thread will continue to serve as the feedback thread for Think Twice. Thanks again for all of your support.
To view the list of changes from Beta to now, as well as new videos, please see [url=http://www.bungie.net/Forums/posts.aspx?postID=58880594&postRepeater1-p=28#59369861]this post[/url].
[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CL-S3S2aXW8]Final Version Youtube Walkthrough[/url]
>[url=http://www.bungie.net/News/content.aspx?type=news&cid=31214]Public Beta on Comm Chatter[/url] (thanks for your support Urk!)
>[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJvNTnWPvlc]Beta Gameplay[/url] on youtube
[i]Think Twice[/i] is a simple, yet innovative competitive multiplayer map created by Sven Nietzsche, GodlyPerfection, Jonzorz 124, and myself. The public beta ran from April 11th 2011 to April 23rd 2011. We received constructive and profound feedback from many of the testers, which was invaluable in fine-tuning the map. We humbly thank all of the participants. Your comments have refined the map and made it much better.
[b]Beta Action-Shots[/b]
[url=http://www.bungie.net/Stats/Reach/FileDetails.aspx?fid=16392256&player=Sven Nietzsche]Battle for the Green Room[/url]
[url=http://www.bungie.net/Stats/Reach/FileDetails.aspx?fid=16392252&player=Sven Nietzsche]Whoever wins gets the Healthpack![/url]
[url=http://www.bungie.net/Stats/Reach/FileDetails.aspx?fid=16392287&player=Sven Nietzsche] I guess I lose...[/url]
[url=http://www.bungie.net/Stats/Reach/FileDetails.aspx?fid=16392312&player=Sven Nietzsche] Obi! I told you not to feed the Dinos!![/url]
[url=http://www.bungie.net/Stats/Reach/FileDetails.aspx?fid=16392311&player=Sven Nietzsche]Soo Much Awsome![/url]
[quote][/quote]
[Edited on 04.27.2011 8:04 AM PDT]
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] XxXAlesanaXxX [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Shotgun fun 101 WHy should I care about one persons map, why should 5+ threads be made for one map, why do you think people are gong to play on it more than once or twice before going to MM[/quote] None of that even bothers me because he's not trying to just get popular through the map just trying to get some good stuff in matchmaking. I don't like that he gives it a release date. Don't be corny just release the map. It's not like I'm gonna be sitting around waiting for the more polished version of your map to release. [/quote] I assure you none of us are expecting you to be sitting around waiting ever so diligently for the map to come out lol. We are not that naive. We have a release date simply because we decided to have a two week public beta, and by the end of those two weeks we would have a finished version available. We did this because we felt that it would be disrespectful to those who have taken the time to test our map to simply say thanks for the feedback we'll finish it when we get a chance. I know it can sound like we are trying to be all super official but that's how the words sound and we are sorry of it comes off that way.
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What's so special about this map that you have to hype it that much like "yeah, public beta" etc. ? Map looks boring, not just because everything is (again) grey. Many Community Slayer maps are build after the exact same concept. Best map so far was and still is "Enclosed" since the author not followed the same concept every other map creator used. Maybe some day the other creators will find out the (pretty simple) secret behind Enclosed. [Edited on 04.23.2011 9:24 AM PDT]
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Shotgun fun 101 WHy should I care about one persons map, why should 5+ threads be made for one map, why do you think people are gong to play on it more than once or twice before going to MM[/quote] Well first off it was made by 4 people, and I'm not sure where these 5+ threads are either. But on to the meat of your reply. Asking why you should care about one persons map is the same as asking why should you care about anyones maps. if you are not open to the idea that people are trying to build content for the community then you will never be able to accept anyones maps. As for the why do I THINK anyone will play this map before going to play MM. I don't think, I simply hope. I do not bloat my ego thinking that everyone will play this map continually forever because it's so awesome. As a designer, you do the very best that you can do with your design, take in feedback and then HOPE that it is accepted well. While I would like to THINK that people will enjoy the map, I never make the mistake of assuming they will be cause we do. That is why we take in criticism in the hopes that the community will enjoy what we have created as much as we do.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Shotgun fun 101 WHy should I care about one persons map, why should 5+ threads be made for one map, why do you think people are gong to play on it more than once or twice before going to MM[/quote] None of that even bothers me because he's not trying to just get popular through the map just trying to get some good stuff in matchmaking. I don't like that he gives it a release date. Don't be corny just release the map. It's not like I'm gonna be sitting around waiting for the more polished version of your map to release.
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WHy should I care about one persons map, why should 5+ threads be made for one map, why do you think people are gong to play on it more than once or twice before going to MM
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I can not emphasize enough that we are not trying to win a popularity contest. We are doing this for the community, the community that we are a part of. We want to see enjoyable maps make it into matchmaking. We and many others do enjoy the map, which is awesome, and yes, of course, there are people who do not like the map. We know we cannot please everyone but we have been doing our best to implement and test any suggestions the community has come up with. I can assure you we are wholly innocent in our intentions. We love Halo. We love building maps for the Halo community. We do our best to create enjoyable experiences. That is all.
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hey can I join or something I'm interested, my gt is the same as my bnet account name but if you're done its cool
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coming to MM or what?
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] A 3 Legged Goat We can outdo ourselves 10x here, and when we get to Invasion you'll see just what I mean.[/quote]Good luck on the Invasion map. Hope it turns out excellent. :)
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] TuefulHunden87[/quote] Thanks for all of your great feedback so far Schnitzel. And I do agree we have to stack our map against the competition and we are definitely doing so behind the scenes. And when we advertise, we advertise based on our audience. Most of the guys that roam BNet haven't seen maps like Think Twice. If we were advertising on a more established forge site we would advertise the map differently for sure. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Epicly Uber One final thing to say, looking at the final version walkthrough, I don't think the Sniper really... belongs in this map, or I just don't think it should spawn in that area, I think it'd be better suited with a Rocket Launcher IMO.[/quote] We've explored every option for the center power weapon and the sniper works out best. It is not an overly dominant weapon on this map, but it does play a very unique role and if used right it can definitely sway combat in your favor. The main reason rockets was not put up there was because we wanted a longer lasting power weapon. Rockets are fire, get kills, and then wait for the next spawn. We wanted to add a little more difficulty into it, especially since this is a pretty small map. Also we already had plasma launchers and grenades filling the center, we don't want to fill it with even more explosives. THis is the same reason we didn't put the pro pipe on the map.
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One final thing to say, looking at the final version walkthrough, I don't think the Sniper really... belongs in this map, or I just don't think it should spawn in that area, I think it'd be better suited with a Rocket Launcher IMO.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] WETbiscuit 808 While this map was fun when I play it with you guys. I wont be playing Halo on the 25th. The Gears of War 3 beta comes out for those of us that pre ordered it. [/quote] Lols I have had the beta since the 15th, poopy doopey. BTW REACH isn't good.
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While this map was fun when I play it with you guys. I wont be playing Halo on the 25th. The Gears of War 3 beta comes out for those of us that pre ordered it.
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True, we are fairly conservative in our designs... At least, the ones we submit to MLG. There are some innovative maps with nifty gimicks and such that do pop up though. Take a look at DeathstarsOG's Cargo for instance. Generally the more unorthadox maps are passed up for MLG selection, but many of them weren't particularly forged for MLG to begin with. A good number of us have become rather disenfranchised as of late with how the MLG community chooses maps and the choices they're making in general and are redirecting our efforts for forging maps for MM in general now. Thats some heavy competition to contend with for getting maps into MM mind you. ;) Of course, compared to the majority of maps that have "graced" the community playlists so far, a polished turd could be considered better. There's really not contest in comparing "Think Twice" to this sort of rubbish. Not saying "Think Twice" is a turd of course. ;) What you need to consider when shooting for MM complies with Porter's Five Forces. Here we have a comparative analysis of the forge map market: We have Bungie as the "customer", whom have a monopsony of the market as they're the only "customer", were as we have multiple "supliers" (ie forgers) competing to get their maps accepted. Of this we are the "suppliers", but there also exists the "new entrants" (new forgers) and "substitute providers" (other established forgers). When you think about how "Think Twice" stacks up, you have to consider not just what has made the cut in the past but also the competition that you must contend with. Does "Think Twice" truly stack up to other solid maps from the competition? Considering that this is a feed back thread, I'm afraid I'm starting to drift grossly off topic here. Sorry for that. OT: You really should try browsing around the MLG forums occasionally... We're really not all "Onslaught" rips and arena maps... There's actually substantial variety in our forums and some extremely aesthetically appealing maps. I really do hate the negative stereotypes other forge communities give us. :/ [Edited on 04.23.2011 7:31 AM PDT]
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] TuefulHunden87 MLG Forge Forums[/quote] I don't ever compare any maps that I or my collaborators build to MLG maps. The maps that are in matchmaking right now (save for the MLG maps) were not fortunate enough to receive extended playtesting. This is because most of them are forgetac maps. The reason I keep going on about the map receiving a lot of playtesting is because players have since lost faith in the community playlist. The maps didn't seem polished and that turned people off. Even if this map ends up to be a disaster, it will at the very least represent what a polished map should embody. We want to stress the importance of testing a map and retesting and rebalancing and rediting. This is how you we do business. I don't ever mean to come off as arrogant, but if we're comparing this to what Bungie decided to put into MP in the past, then I don't have to doubt the design. We're approaching the map with the intent of correcting th emistakes made by the forgetac designers. But hey, if Bungie doesn't like the map, I personally will have lost nothing. I only care about Invasion. Oh, and IMO all MLG maps are the same. Symmetric UT arenas with neutral power weapons and open bases. I enjoy MLG gameplay, but the originality of their maps is next to non-existent. They don't take risks and branch out to new ideas. [Edited on 04.23.2011 1:54 AM PDT]
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] A 3 Legged Goat [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Epicly Uber Tell me honestly what differentiates this map than any other community map that's already been implemented into MM? I just don't see how I can see this map being anymore than just a "Oh, another community made map, let's see where the rocket launcher is on this map now..."[/quote] Well I can tell you 3 things that make it substantially different: 1. It has been playtested more than nearly all the other community maps in matchmaking combined. That alone means more feedback was given and more issues were addressed early in development 2. It has no performance issues, sloppily forged areas, or bad spawns/weapons. Everything from objective placement to textures matching up with each other has been tweaked to their highest potential. 3. Gameplay is complete and polished. The experience is seamless and players don't end up fighting the map instead of the players. The center design is also very innovative and weapon set provides fresh and new combat that differs from other maps. We're not heralding Think Twice as "the map to end all maps". Frankly, this is nothing compared to what we're working on now. We can outdo ourselves 10x here, and when we get to Invasion you'll see just what I mean. On Monday you'll be able to experience what a finished map looks like. [/quote] To be frank,you do sound a little full of yourself here goat. Its really not hard having a map that's been more thoroughly tested than the trash in the community playlists either. This map most definitely hasn't been tested more than some of the more solid maps coming out of the MLG Forge Forums though. Maps like Viridian, Android, Cargo, Preserve and etc really put this map to shame. Half of which are more aesthtically pleasing (omg, aesthetics in mlg maps?), and all of which have more refined designs. What I want to know is what REALLY sets this map apart from the rest? What makes this better than the maps that come out of the veteran forge community? It has silky smooth frame rate, but most maps by competent forgers do as well... It can perform in split, a rarity but not unheard of amongst competent forgers... The only two things I see going for this map that separate it from the rest currently is the middle structure with the easy top/bottom transitions and the balancing for extremely casual play. Does that instantly make it great? Not really... And I could definitely see this being one of those maps that gets abused by playlist try-hards. However, I do happen to like the general design of it... The map just isn't one of those that stands out as something I'd want to play. :/ Do note: I'm not bashing the map, I'm saying there are better maps out there that I prefer. This also isn't a case of being "jelly", or having a bias towards friends, as several of my preferred maps are from forgers I can't stand.
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The updated version looks sweet =] I'm glad I was able to play on the current version with my buddies. We mainly did FFA but it was fun nonetheless. The size of the map worked pretty well, as well as weapon placement. Can't wait til it goes into matchmaking. Keep up the good work guys!
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Think Twice? Heh, I think if the majority of the community could just think once we'd be in good shape.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Tomberry Hey I just skimmed through this thread and look forward to downloading the map in the future but just a question, which people have tested it, or better who are the best players that have tested it? Not trying to sound like a dick but you know as well as I do that gameplay at a very high level plays differently then it does at low levels.[/quote]RioT wwwmmmmwmw, MLG FFA player.
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Hey I just skimmed through this thread and look forward to downloading the map in the future but just a question, which people have tested it, or better who are the best players that have tested it? Not trying to sound like a dick but you know as well as I do that gameplay at a very high level plays differently then it does at low levels.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Epicly Uber Tell me honestly what differentiates this map than any other community map that's already been implemented into MM? I just don't see how I can see this map being anymore than just a "Oh, another community made map, let's see where the rocket launcher is on this map now..."[/quote] Well I can tell you 3 things that make it substantially different: 1. It has been playtested more than nearly all the other community maps in matchmaking combined. That alone means more feedback was given and more issues were addressed early in development 2. It has no performance issues, sloppily forged areas, or bad spawns/weapons. Everything from objective placement to textures matching up with each other has been tweaked to their highest potential. 3. Gameplay is complete and polished. The experience is seamless and players don't end up fighting the map instead of the players. The center design is also very innovative and weapon set provides fresh and new combat that differs from other maps. We're not heralding Think Twice as "the map to end all maps". Frankly, this is nothing compared to what we're working on now. We can outdo ourselves 10x here, and when we get to Invasion you'll see just what I mean. On Monday you'll be able to experience what a finished map looks like. [Edited on 04.23.2011 12:30 AM PDT]
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Not the best date, eh? Everyones gonna play the GOW3 beta then.
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Tell me honestly what differentiates this map than any other community map that's already been implemented into MM? I just don't see how I can see this map being anymore than just a "Oh, another community made map, let's see where the rocket launcher is on this map now..."
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] A 3 Legged Goat [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] CHANGINGBULLET1 the BETA failed the first time so what I am asking YOU pudding head is this "What if the second attempt fails then what are you going to do? Cry to mommy?"[/quote] What Beta are you referring to that "failed"? [/quote]I think he's just jelly
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] CHANGINGBULLET1 the BETA failed the first time so what I am asking YOU pudding head is this "What if the second attempt fails then what are you going to do? Cry to mommy?"[/quote] What Beta are you referring to that "failed"? We've done 3 major testing phases: Internal Alpha, Internal Beta, and Public Beta. None of them failed, and if they did the map wouldn't be releasing on Monday. [Edited on 04.22.2011 11:19 PM PDT]
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] General_Rafa Goat, will you personally be in any beta playtests this weekend? I would like to play you on this map, provided there is Armor Lock. :P[/quote] My Reach disc is every where except for in one piece inside my Xbox, so no I wont be able to playtest anytime soon. I'm working on getting a new one.
