[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Nihilistic [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Carpetfresh Just like Affinity, it sucks. Bungie has lost all integrity and it's pride ever since Activision bought them....[/quote] You my good sir sound as if you have a large cylindrical object shoved far in something. [/quote] lol I love you nikki. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] TuefulHunden87 The map has excellent performance for 2-player split. Best settings I find for frame rate testings are with players camo'd, bottomless clip, and AR/Focus Rifle load out. A bit extreme for finding frame rate as if you find any on here with those settings its very likely to be extremely situational.[/quote] As goat said using the new overshield effect in matchmaking you can give everyone overshields and have everyone with a flaming trail running around the map. Pair that with bottomless focus rifle and you have a nice recipe for frame rate dropping goodness. And yeah from the beginning we designed for splitscreen, as much as I would like to support 3-4 player splitscreen, sometimes it just isn't possible unless you want your map to be all sorts of bland. lol... thanks for the tip though schnitzel.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] TuefulHunden87 The map has excellent performance for 2-player split. Best settings I find for frame rate testings are with players camo'd, bottomless clip, and AR/Focus Rifle load out. A bit extreme for finding frame rate as if you find any on here with those settings its very likely to be extremely situational.[/quote] I heard there's a new test around the block where everybody has overshield with flaming feet and bottomless fuel rods in Elite Slayer. I doubt any of that will ever happen, but it sounds like a fun test nonetheless. Here's a new batch of screens. [b]Screenshots[/b] [url=http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5228/5653850654_8dfd427242_b.jpg]Red Base[/url] [url=http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5304/5653850826_91fb64ae16_b.jpg]Blue Base[/url] [url=http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5150/5653279813_62b8a4d060_b.jpg]Green Room[/url] [url=http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5222/5653279655_cb9996118a_b.jpg]Gold Room[/url] [url=http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5146/5653279717_50d3b6f206_b.jpg]Top Center[/url] [url=http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5230/5653279511_0852e4fb92_b.jpg]Bottom Center[/url] [url=http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5063/5653427773_6054e6fdc8_b.jpg]Top and Bottom Levels[/url] [Edited on 04.25.2011 9:31 AM PDT]

The map has excellent performance for 2-player split. Best settings I find for frame rate testings are with players camo'd, bottomless clip, and AR/Focus Rifle load out. A bit extreme for finding frame rate as if you find any on here with those settings its very likely to be extremely situational.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Carpetfresh Just like Affinity, it sucks. Bungie has lost all integrity and it's pride ever since Activision bought them....[/quote] You my good sir sound as if you have a large cylindrical object shoved far in something.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] MilesDude32 It plays very good for what I've played of it. It looks really nice too. I found a couple of places where things can be stood on that I'm not sure were supposed to be stand-able. Right as you're about the enter the top core area (from any of the four sides), look left or right. The crossed-line decorations on the side can be stood on, which can be advantageous to any jetpacker looking to get the drop on a guy coming through. Whether this is a good or bad thing is up to you. I personally like it. @GodlyPefection: Were you using Camo in playtesting to test the map for framerate drops (which I never noticed any) or just so you could own folks with your trusty hammer? Just wondering.[/quote] Well Miles you obviously haven't downloaded the final version. That area is kill zoned as of yesterday. ;) And I use camo for a little of both. Speaking of framerate, this map still plays silky smooth in 2 player splitscreen. ;)

It plays very good for what I've played of it. It looks really nice too. I found a couple of places where things can be stood on that I'm not sure were supposed to be stand-able. Right as you're about the enter the top core area (from any of the four sides), look left or right. The crossed-line decorations on the side can be stood on, which can be advantageous to any jetpacker looking to get the drop on a guy coming through. Whether this is a good or bad thing is up to you. I personally like it. @GodlyPefection: Were you using Camo in playtesting to test the map for framerate drops (which I never noticed any) or just so you could own folks with your trusty hammer? Just wondering.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Sven Nietzsche [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] ONPD I don't really like this map... yes this is an echo of previous comments but im sorry, corridors are too narrow, too long. No AA's? Seriously? [/quote] We found it unnessesary to add AA's to the map simply b/c you pick one at spawn.[/quote] Apologies for my foolishness, I thought you ment the default gametype was no AA's. Read it through again, rubbed eyes. Apologies.

Hey Goat, don't listen to all this flamers. You're a great forger, and Urk knows it. They're just either too jelly or are just tired of all that grey forge has, but that's not your fault. Keep up the good work bro! And just something I think would be nice to forge: A forge map on Tempest. It offers a beatiful landscape and some nature sense I´m sure you can pull off. I have seen some very impressive maps there, and it's a nice break from all that grey.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] ONPD I don't really like this map... yes this is an echo of previous comments but im sorry, corridors are too narrow, too long. No AA's? Seriously? [/quote] We found it unnessesary to add AA's to the map simply b/c you pick one at spawn.

I don't really like this map... yes this is an echo of previous comments but im sorry, corridors are too narrow, too long. No AA's? Seriously?

D-riding and high horsing is not being civil. Thats called being a douche. So yeah, it still stands in a fight by my definition and you stand as a troll. Let me and Goat argue if we feel and do see your way out. kthxbye.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Homeboyd903 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] A 3 Legged Goat You can view a [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRuXUdYk6TA]montage of gameplay in this video[/url], created by riftegifle[/quote] Such a kick ass video for such a kick ass map. Quote me. Go ahead...[/quote] Just did! haha, i keep watching it. its really bad for my health.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] TuefulHunden87 Lets just agree to disagree. This is a fight that neither of are willing to give up any ground on. [/quote]"Fight"? A 3 Legged Goat is being civil, whereas you're making a complete and total ass of yourself by flaming him repeatedly. The only one "fighting" here is you.

Lets just agree to disagree. This is a fight that neither of are willing to give up any ground on.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Carpetfresh Just like Affinity, it sucks. Bungie has lost all integrity and it's pride ever since Activision bought them....[/quote] Wait, are you under the impression this is a Bungie-made map? If so, that's more of a compliment than anything. Well, it would be for me anyways.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Carpetfresh it sucks[/quote] You aren't going to get into game design if you provide feedback like that. [Edited on 04.24.2011 9:50 PM PDT]

Just like Affinity, it sucks. Bungie has lost all integrity and it's pride ever since Activision bought them....

ive played your maps goat and they are always very enjoyable experiences, they feel very natural and i hope forge city is created so you can continue to make these master pieces

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] A 3 Legged Goat You can view a [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRuXUdYk6TA]montage of gameplay in this video[/url], created by riftegifle[/quote] Such a kick ass video for such a kick ass map. Quote me. Go ahead...

Really? 12:00 release? lol downloading. [Edited on 04.24.2011 9:30 PM PDT]

Think Twice has been completed and is now available for download. On behalf of the four of us, we thank everyone who participated in testing and this thread for their support. [url=http://www.bungie.net/Stats/Reach/FileDetails.aspx?fid=16952073&player=A%203%20Legged%20Goat]Download Think Twice[/url] You can view a [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRuXUdYk6TA]montage of gameplay in this video[/url], created by riftegifle I conclude my reply with the updated disclaimer portion of the second OP: [quote][b]THREAD DISCLAIMER:[/b][/quote] We've received a lot of negative feedback about the feedback thread itself rather than the map. While we appreciate you taking the time to comment, we kindly ask that you refrain from posting off-topic or otherwise inappropriate remarks related to anything other than the map itself. This thread wasn't made with the intention of promoting our map for downloads. It wasn't made to provide exposure for the four of us as designers. We posted this feedback thread with the intention of improving the gameplay experience on Think Twice. We understand now that posting it as early as we did wasn't fair to the rest of the forgers, and we also understand why we seemed to come off as egotistical, arrogant, or elitist. Conversely, we stand by the necessity of posting feedback threads, and we hope that this has been an example to all forgers. It is imperative that you take your map seriously when you are testing it. Not everybody is going to like you or your map, but how you handle their criticism (legitimate and otherwise) and how you apply it towards your creation is what will define you as a designer. If you're building maps for matchmaking, you'll have to endure repeated testing and tweaking before it's ready. While we can be a bit biased at times, I assure you that the four of us strive to be as humble as we can and take in all constructive feedback. Being told your map isn't good can be disheartening, but we've approached the legitimate criticism with open-minds and either considered or tested many of the ideas. Thanks to all for your cooperation, and thanks to Urk and the rest of Bungie for supporting us. We hope you enjoy the map, and if not, please share your feedback with us.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] TuefulHunden87 [url=http://www.forgehub.com/forum/reach-mlg-maps/123172-android.html]Android[/url] [url=http://www.forgehub.com/forum/featured-maps/117963-retroactive.html]Retroactive[/url] [url=http://www.bungie.net/fanclub/400941/Forums/posts.aspx?postID=59326773]Veridian[/url] [url=http://www.forgehub.com/forum/featured-maps/119311-rise.html]Rise[/url] [url=http://www.bungie.net/fanclub/400941/Forums/posts.aspx?postID=59438772]Cargo[/url] [url=http://forums.majorleaguegaming.com/topic/202408-transit-asym-all-abooooooooooooooard/page__st__60__p__6685976__hl__transit__fromsearch__1#entry6685976]Transit[/url] [url=http://www.bungie.net/fanclub/400941/Forums/posts.aspx?postID=59438123]Solace[/url] [url=http://www.bungie.net/fanclub/400941/Forums/posts.aspx?postID=59438642]Boulevard[/url] [url=http://www.forgehub.com/forum/featured-maps/122543-cynosure.html]Cyonosure[/url][/quote] Some of those links don't work...And of the ones that do, two are remakes and the rest are MLG maps. I'm not saying they are bad, but they are clearly different styles to Think Twice. Apples and oranges and all that shiz? [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] TuefulHunden87 And you know whats funny? I've criticized the hell out of every one of those maps, but the authors (minus DeathstarsOG) have been very humble and accepting of such criticism and have also seen the light of it. Further more, each and ever one of these forgers has more talent and understanding of forge in their little finger(s) that the four of you knuckle heads combined.[/quote] Now, good sir, that comes off as arrogant. You are basically saying, right there, that your criticism is sooo important, these guys took my advice, see, see. By saying "seen the light of it" you present your thoughts as divine will and undoubtedly correct. I do not know you personally. I do not know whether you understand design. But I DO know that you are being just as arrogant as you claim these guys are. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] TuefulHunden87 Normally I wouldn't respond like this, but your arrogance in the matter is mind blowing. Where do any of you four get off thinking your some sort of authority or experts on map making or design when you pale in comparison to many of your contemporaries across the greater forge community? [/quote] I've already mentioned the hypocrisy in the arrogance statement, but before you make such statements (and before I reply and indeed before anybody should deign to listen to them) please provide clear evidence. Quote, explain, infer. Basic logic skills. Now, in reference to your latest post, features at these sites are a recognition of worth. It does not automatically make those maps with features a definitive list of the greatest forge maps ever. As you well know, Think Twice is NOT an MLG map. Therefore it cannot be featured at an MLG forum. If you run a search at Forgehub, you will find that Think Twice has NOT been posted there. As Forgehub only features maps that have been posted there, it would be amazing indeed if TT was featured there. In addition to that, features don't necessarily mean anything. I've never seen a Bungie map featured, and they have some of the best levels I've ever played. And as I recall, the authors of TT have stated that they don't care about downloads, and I'm sure you can recall their reasoning to that effect. The same reasoning applies to features. (Well, not the section about the highest downloaded maps are crap, that doesn't wash with the features...) Edit: [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] jbh0220 I have a small, unrelated query. [i]How is it that you can get a map straight into matchmaking[/i] without having to win some wretched contest? Thousands of people worked hard on competing with others in the Forgetacular Contest, yet you seem to be able to just send maps right into the pools. As you know, I'm obviously just jealous. It doesn't seem fair in my [b]opinion[/b].[/quote] They are not getting their map straight into matchmaking. They will submit it to the Community Cartographers via a number of groups, such as Satryos. Also, I'd just like to say that most entries in the Forgetac were not worked hard upon. I'd say "hardly worked". Oh, and that's based off the huge amount of maps that were almost immediately discarded. [Edited on 04.24.2011 6:17 PM PDT]

3 L3gged goat was the 777th comment! [nerdgasm]

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] TuefulHunden87 I'm done in this thread... Blocky is not a critique of a map? Every map is blocky. Whats the difference between rectangular blocky and 12 Pyramid pieces blocky? Nothing, they look like easily identifiable forge world pieces. [/quote] Take a look at the textures of pieces. The 2x4 is mostly grey and it has lots of busy lines on it. The 3x3 is a lighter grey and is smoother, with blue hues and more defined shapes. These pieces don't match together aesthetically. Look at the side of a Staircase. Now look at a coliseum wall. Notice the dark grey? Those pieces are cohesive and look nice when they're used together. Now look at the center of Think Twice. Except for the column, everything matches up texture-wise and they flow into each other. This is repeated around the entire map (except in some instances where there was no alternative, such as the column). This is what makes a map cohesive. I'm sure the maps you linked play great. I'd love to play on them myself since you've assured me that they've been tested and tweaked. But what those map makers don't understand is how to make their map's objects flow into one another. If this isn't something you support or are interested in, then we can at least agree to disagree. I'm always in support of good maps for matchmaking, and I support those forgers just as any other good forgers out there. But the 4 of us who worked on TT do things differently. We design maps. We made this thread so the community could help us on gameplay. If this map ends up being a colossal failure, it probably means that we didn't have enough people testing on the gameplay front. I've received almost as much feedback on the map as I have for this feedback thread itself. That to me is just disrespectful. We aren't busting our balls building maps to build egos. When people come and trash us for doing bad gameplay wise I can't help but call them hypocrites. It's their part to test the gameplay. I don't know why Urk posted it on the front page other than to see how the testing went. I haven't been on in nearly 2 weeks, but judging from what I've been seeing, it doesn't seem like we had reliable support. But that's the way things go. We learn from our mistakes. In the future, these threads wont be posted until the map pases alpha stages and is tested internally by newer players. You're right--we did force it. This map wasn't even an idea 3 weeks ago. [Edited on 04.24.2011 5:18 PM PDT]

I'm done in this thread... Blocky is not a critique of a map? Every map is blocky. Whats the difference between rectangular blocky and 12 Pyramid pieces blocky? Nothing, they look like easily identifiable forge world pieces. What do the majority of the maps I listed have in common? Features. Features at Forge Hub and features at MLG. In regards to a comparison between those maps and this, it doesn't even compute. Those maps have soul... Those map play high end competition and casual play. Those are balanced and well thought out maps that are polished designs that have persevered over months (and years in some cases). Think Twice just feels forced IMO. There's features I like of it, but I don't think the map over all is gold. No hard feelings of course. I get heated, thats all.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Oughta Otter[/quote] Hey calm down. I'm not trying to start a flame war here. I asked him to post maps that he thought were better and he did. I didn't ask him to post God's HDD into the thread. @Tueful Otter has a point though. The maps you posted were very blocky and were comprised of Forge objects that I could list by name. They don't look like maps, but rather objects tossed together. Now that doesn't mean it wont play good. I'm sure they'll play very well--even better than Think Twice. And I wasn't ever trying to come off as arrogant. If I did, then I apologize. I [i]wanted[/i] people to post good maps so I can study them and see what they do right that we did wrong. We aren't trying to boost our egos with this thread. I don't think any of us were expecting it to be frontpaged by Urk. Think Twice was a spontaneous forging concept that we came up with one night. We weren't building it to be the next Pit or Midship. We wanted to build a map that used a dual-layered center area that you could transition between. The side areas and bases came as a by-product of that, but the core of the map is quite literally its core--the center. Again, I know there are better maps out there. We can even build better maps. This was just us trying to experiment with some concepts, which designers need to be willing to do. Taking risks is what leads to discovery. Building inside the comfort zone of, as otter put it "Sniper Rockets Shotty" and the wide open, inclines, blocks there, railing there has already been done to death. Forge is too grey; too overkilled. With Think Twice, we tried to change that. Maybe it's not your style of gameplay. Maybe it'll be a complete disaster. I don't know where it'll be headed, but we tried what we could and we built it with default multiplayer in mind. That means AAs and gameplay for people who probably don't know how to callout in the first place. We aided that by aligning the map with cardinal directions and giving it distinct colors. I'd love to build a competitive map, but (as you said yourself I believe) I probably don't understand how to and I should best leave it to people who do. So that's all fair and done, correct? Then I'll stay over here and build maps that use risky designs and objects that flow together nicely. I'll build maps that look like actual maps and not block 2x4, block 3x3, strut, railing large, column, ramp xl, etc. MLG designers can build the competitive maps. I want them to. I like maps like Element and that other one with the weird name (Android?). Those maps just aren't what I want to build. No hard feelings I assume? [Edited on 04.24.2011 4:35 PM PDT]