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Edited by A Toa's Friend: 2/26/2020 9:34:37 PM
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Forcing guns into obsolecence by limiting their long-term Light level is a terrible idea; here's why and some alternate suggestions

I just finished reading the most recent [url=https://www.bungie.net/en/Explore/Detail/News/48758]Director's Cut[/url]. While I am overall happy that Bungie is making the best efforts that they can to improve the game in all aspects, I have firm criticisms about the decision to limit the Light level of older legendary weapons to limit their effective lifespan in endgame activities (which now include the upcoming Trials, which for better or worse will be Light level enabled). I preface my criticisms by acknowledging that I know very little about the game development process, and that finding good solutions to problems like the sustainability and oversaturation of the gun ecosystem is very, very difficult. However, the non-gamedev opinion has its value because the thing that most players (who are not professional gamedevs) will ultimately judge a game for is what they subjectively experience. Below, I present a few reasons as to why forcing guns into obsolecence will only serve to detract from the overall game experience as it is. In addition, I provide two alterantive approaches to solving this problem -- ideas that I hope the people at Bungie will consider as they move forward. [b]1) Forcing guns into eventual obsolecence will only serve to devalue the experience of acquiring new ones.[/b] Each piece of good gear should have value, which in turn lends value to the activities through which one earns this gear, because each time playing through it is a step closer to getting the right rolls to finish a perfect build. Grinding loot in games as an investment into [i]future[/i] participation in it. But if a gun is guaranteed to be functionally useless in the future, then its practical value is transient at best -- and in the long run, worthless to own. Players will be less excited to get the gun, because its only value is its relevance to the present season; the game loses the excitement of getting a cool piece of gear to integrate into a player's build. The excitement of investment is gone. [b]2) Limiting the amount of time that this gear is actually useful for will also severely decrease the value of the [i]activity[/i] through which it is earned.[/b] This is not to say the gun itself is useless (b/c under this new model, it will be necessary to have it for Light level advantages to complete endgame activities), but when it is known that this gun will be all but scrapped a few months down the road, the loot-grinding activity becomes nothing more than a tedious activity players are forced to participate in if they want to keep playing the game in a meaningful way. With each new season, there will be a new pool of weapons to earn in the game...only for these weapons to become absolutely useless in endgame activities (which, for many players, are a fundamental component of playing Destiny). This cycle will become monotonous, and sooner or later players will start demanding yet another overhaul to the system. [b]3) Guns are both a tool and status symbol for the player; limiting their effectivness in future activities will only devalue them as something worth having outside of current seasonal relevance.[/b] From a player perspective, there are two reasons to value a gun: its functionality, and its prestige. "Prestige" in this context might mean the combination of its rolled perks or its limited window of availability to acquire. For example, my godroll Blast Furnace is my weapon of prestige: any player who did not invest extensively in the Black Armory season will look at my gun and be impressed in some way. This gun is an expression of my dedication to this game and one of its activities. I love this gun, I use it for (almost) everything; I love the way it feels, I love that whenever I use it I know exactly what I have to do to make it work well, it's been by my side through all the highs and lows of me playing this game. Everyone who plays with me regularly knows about my gun. Limiting the future worth of these guns also amputates this individual value and prestige from them. Eventually, I will reach a point where it is no longer feasable for me to use this gun in endgame activities, and that is extremely disappointing and disheartening to know. My hard-earned weapons are a part of me -- an "extension of my character," as the Director's Cut puts it, and I am certain that I am not the only player who feels that way about their arsenal. What's the point in working so hard for a godroll weapon that feels and looks great if it's just going to be replaced by something down the road that I might not like? We talk a lot about the "fashion endgame," and guns are a part of that. We use guns just as much as we use armor to express ourselves. It doesn't matter how flashy or smooth a new gun is: if everyone is using it b/c it's the only thing that's relevant and useful, then it detracts from the idea of acknowledging a player's dedication, veteran status, and accomplishments through their practical gear. [b]4) Limiting maximum Light on old gear does not solve the problem of those guns still existing in the game ecosystem.[/b] Force-funneling players into current seasonal activities to use current gear does not address the fact that old guns will still exist as useable items in non-Light enabled activities. If one of the problems being faced is the overpopulation of guns that need to be balanced and maintained, this problem will persist as long as guns aren't physically removed from the ecosystem. And given how many negative impacts to player experience that the current solution will already present, this seems to be a loss/loss scenario for both players and development. Even if it's only high Light endgame activities that will truly be impacted by this change, it also does not change the fact that players will now have an additional set of gear to manage on top of their old loadouts for old non-pinnacle activities. This goes against the idea presented in previous Bungie publications of allowing players to make the "perfect" build to take with them everywhere they go. [b]Suggestion #1:[/b] My first and best suggestion would be to compromise and allow players to keep infusing old gear to current Light levels at an increasing cost of materials. This will enable players to keep using their old gear and preserve their value while still incentivizing use of new seasonal gear as being more efficient to obtain. Players can decide for themselves whether to replace their old gear with new ones, or if they want to put effort into collecting materials to keep using their old gear. [b]Suggestion #2:[/b] Instead of forcing [i]all[/i] old weapons to become obselete, simply remove statistically underperforming weapons and select old random world drops entirely from the game. The value of new gear is always relative to whatever else can be earned in the game. Right now, most of that value lies in the reliability of how a specific gun is earned, its cosmetic appearace, and perhaps some novel perks or certain perk combinations that are possible on those guns. While world drops should not be eliminated entirely, their sheer number competes and congests the system when it comes to earning new guns. Limiting the kinds of guns that exist in world drops (especially guns that statistically are not used by players) will not only clear up the system for both players and devs, but also further increase the value of activity-acquired guns.

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  • Edited by My Finger Points: 3/14/2020 10:08:42 PM
    Ha, now Bungie is taking the core of the game, the loot, and putting an expiration date on it?! Lmao. Holy sh*t that's stupid. I feel genuinely bad for players who made this game a part time job trying to quire all the things. How does Luke Smith still have a job at this point? How can he be in a leadership position and be that utterly clueless? I was going to fire it up to see what was new but now I'm glad I stopped playing a while back. Remember when everyone thought is was Activision making all those bad decisions? Lol, nope.

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  • Honestly if it happens I am done that's it. Stuck though from D1 beta, suffered the great autorifle nerf. Watched my busted many many vault of Glass runs to get Vex mythoclast and other gear I worked hard to get a drop for. Become useless in The Taken King to finally in age of triumph to get it back because we asked and begged for the old gear to come back. And now I am seeing this happen all the hell over again. I again busted my ass to get gear to drop. Finally got the perks that suit my play style PvE. Got a armor set I actually enjoy aesthetically. Big shocker here, it's a D1 armor design. This is absolutely two steps forward and going back 5 years of stupid decisions. So yeah if Luke Smith get his way I am done with Bungie products. Wasted enough time and money to go back to decisions that did not work the last time it happened.

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  • I think that it is ridiculous to even suggest giving guns a shelf life, when they pulled this move back in The Taken King it utterly brutalized the weapon economy and many people hated the change.

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  • Strongly agree with the first point - having a built in 'expiration date' on weapons will make them [i]much[/i] less exciting to obtain. This is especially true for people like me who can't always keep up with the amount of content. Lots of people have mentioned Blast Furnace - I still don't have one. I was thinking of going for one, but why bother if it might already be obsolete by the time a good roll drops? It'd be no fun finally finding a great weapon and then only be able to use it in easy stuff like strikes. The end result would be a bunch of great older legendaries that I'd [i] never[/i] be able to really enjoy.

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  • I made a post about this [url=https://www.bungie.net/en/Forums/Post/255353746]here [/url]if you want to read the whole thing, but basically my criticism is that the current RNG of the game is too harsh to put a time limit on acquiring god rolls. If there is not a fundamental rework of loot in some way to accommodate the new system of rotating gear, unlucky people will not be able to get the weapons they want before they just become obsolete.

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  • it's a good idea, i dont want to play against Sparebenders, Beloved and Not Forgottens anymore, forcing them out will greatly improve the game

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  • Edited by Xero: 2/28/2020 12:35:27 AM
    I'm bumping this because I like the construction of this feedback. This is the type of feedback the forums need more than ever, especially if you want Bungie to take it more seriously. I can see the ideals behind the suggestions made. It's easy to agree with. But I would disagree more with the second suggestion vs the first one. I don't think it would be necessary. Even then, the first suggestion of allowing infusion to persist, can still have the inevitable result of the new loot not being used. This will depend on how radical the player is in "stubborn persistence" for lack of a better term. My take on reading this has sparked an idea involving the mod system, and it's more based on my observations between static rolls in the game and random rolls as the game progressed. The idea and explanation is below. [spoiler][b][i]Why not turn all gun perks into a mod of their own and make all mods world drops, with raid specific one dropping in raids, Crucible dropping in competitive, Gambit based ones in Gambit etc?[/i][/b][/spoiler] [spoiler]If gun value is an issue from Bungie's perspective, and looking into new weapons to release, why not revamp the gun system by having us find base guns with nothing on them, or randomized "mod perks" only to be able to change them up freely. The Armor 2.0 revamp was received quite well, I think, minus the issues that persist it. But that's a separate topic. Ideally, it should allow more control from Bungie's side of adjustments (nerfs/buffs), as the gun archtype itself isn't adjusted vs a specific "perk mod" being removed for tweaking or just adjusted as a whole. It allows more of a mix and match. Players also should feel a broader sense of customization and control, even if Bungie limits specific weapons with specific mods. I think the principle of having control given in some way, shape, or form that isn't too undermining can go a long way too. What I don't know, is if the system can even allow that, given the number of perks in total that were designed for weapons. This could very well be a pipe dream, but if weapons are going to receive an expiration, this makes me think there is a "loot saturation" problem. I think that was a point in your post somewhere.[/spoiler]

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    1 Reply
    • Edited by Night_Fury147: 2/28/2020 12:01:04 AM
      Bungie will probably introduce an option to infuse old weapons. It will just require $1,000 worth of silver and your soul. All you have to do is sign the bottom line with your blood.

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    • *the way loot games have been made for the last 20 years is wrong* Which makes no sense at all.

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    • Just give weapons seasonal mods like the armor. You can still use it but if you want to do new endgame events you'll probably want to use a current weapon to take advantage of mods

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    • Don't know why you waste your time trying to find solutions to these issues when the actual game designers couldn't care less.

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    • They dont care. They and the fanboys can throw every excuse out at you they want...other mmos do it, D1 did it, new weapons need to shine.... Blah blah they're just too lazy and dont want to dedicate the resources to keep balancing then. End of story If it doesn't revolve around Eververse they cant be bothered. If the seasonal content weren't so disgusting it would he easier to accept this because the fun of doing the activities would overshadow it a bit.

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    • Agreed, nobody liked this crap when they did it i d1 so idk why they are doing it again. Luke smith always does dumb shit . He was the one that changed trials when d2 came out and nobody liked it.

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    • 2
      That was plain and simple poor thought out decision making they need to go back to the drawing board with this one

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    • They dug themselves into a foundational design issue hole from the game's beginning that is bad for the game's long-term health. (Folks are complaining about seeing mindbender's too much for this reason for a good example, not because mindbender's is a better shotgun than the other aggressive / precision frames.) - Why do folks use the old guns? Because they're effective. - Why are they effective? Because the old stats and perks provide exactly as much benefit as the new stats and perks. The power progression with these is linear / it doesn't exist. (Example: 60 range + opening shot + snapshot on a +1 year old shotgun is as good as on a shotgun that'd come out next season.) - The part that could have vertical power progression (light level) can always be infused up to meet the current content's power requirement. This sounds simple, but it's the cause of a very real design problem that does have player experience impact. [i]Realistically all the new guns they make are reskins of old ones.[/i] There's little reason to use new gear. This leads to stagnant experience. They've identified this issue. New gear they create serves no practical purpose. I for one can't come up with a sensible solution. I don't think forced gear redundancy is good with the amount of time investment D2's RNG loot system requires (godroll gun = hitting the single best option with around 1/7 odds, 5 times in a row. Success probability should be 0.714%, [b]or the chance for not getting a godroll is above 99% on average[/b].). But it is the only way to build vertical power progression into the gear. (= only newer gear comes with the power levels for newer content) Making new perks and combinations can work for a bit, but that gets increasingly harder with time. The current ones are already so good there's almost nothing to work with in terms of development. This translates to stagnation for player experience in long-term. That they took so long to start tackling this issue only makes solving it harder. In other MMOs replacing old gear with new one as new content arrives is the norm. (Example: FFXIV completely refreshes gear tiers around every 3-4 months on a consistent cycle. Old gear is scrapped in relevancy and only left as ornament potential.) Not saying it's applicable one-to-one to D2. Just pointing out how other MMOs don't have this issue and now that bungo's moving towards that design, the playerbase is protesting partly because it's not what they're used to. And partly because in D2 the time-investment required per gear piece is astronomical thanks to the massive RNG. New gear will remain redundant as long as old gear is cheaper to infuse to the current power level standard.

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      • So I have an idea. What if pinnacle weapons become a new sub class of weapons. People who have earned them can keep and upgrade them to the new seasons soft cap. But, for endgame content to keep progressing past the soft cap you have to use the new legendary weapons with each new season. Rotate the pinnacle quests between coming seasons (or bi-seasonally) to avoid FOMO. Remove the least used legendary weapons as seasons continue. Also bring back pinnacle drops of +1 light back to weekly challenges and trials bounties to keep both PVE players and PVP players interested. Even if you can only use this to progress half way to the hard cap. Even if it's gritting your teeth and doing activities you may not enjoy your still moving forward.

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        • Edited by EniGmA: 3/1/2020 5:38:58 AM
          It would be a very interesting solution to have legendary guns increase cost for infusion and upgrading to a masterwork by something like an extra upgrade module for each season that passes. So in a year from now, it takes 4 modules per infusion on a gun we got last year rather than 1 for the new guns. Eventually, the cost to maintain a full arsenal of old gear would be too much and guns would have to be dropped in favor of newer, easier to use weapons. But it would still let players keep that one or two weapons out of their whole arsenal that they really like. At least I think that would be better than simply saying no more old guns at all.

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        • This was a good read! Best post in the forum on this issue, IMO. Hope you continue to get more visibility! To add on the subject of giving activities incentive to do them and weapons being overpopulated, I think it really needs to be talked about more in the community about how there's so much old content from Y1 that has been left to stagnate. Pre-forsaken planetary vendors have a great function of selling rotating weapons but said weapons still only have *3 perks* and were not moved over to the random roll system. And in regard to the Leviathan raids (before crown), Benedict actually has a really good vendor system of selling you items that give you incentive to do the associated activity, and also rotate weekly. The leviathan raids still only drop Y1 items from their chests. It's really sad to see content left to rot like this. I agree that simply power capping weapons won't solve this issue, and I hope going forward, they'll revisit the activities already present in the game.

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        • lol u didnt even play d1 did u?

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          • First off, it is clear you thought about this and didn't just fire off a hate post. I appreciate that. Anyhow, I hope that our friends at Bungie are smart enough to only use this on the Seasonal and General Loot Pools. The weapons there are mostly useless at this time. If it is applied to the assorted Functions (i.e. Forge, Gambit, Crucible, Vanguard) Loot Pools, they might as well remove those Functions from the game. I could see a rotating pool each season working for Crucible and Vanguard with the weapons rotated out coming back in the next season.

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          • What the hell is this actual, proper feedback doing on my Destiny 2 forums? Someone knows how to do feedback. I'm in awe.

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            • the current value of old content is rock bottom as is. the new weapons coming out don't get used because people put too much value on old weapons. all the gear should have a cap. you wouldn't use a level 10 weapon to fight a level 50 monster, so why should that same weapon be an endgame weapon for years? the endgame powers up, the weapons should become less effective. this is standard MMO progression, as they move forward into more MMO aspects these cure all loadouts will become a thing of the past and learning what works for current content will be the way to work.

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              • I think they could use the same model as the armor. I don't mind the seasonal mods for armor because i still use older pieces for certain events. They could make seasonal mods for weapons that benefit in current season endgame events but still allow older weapons as a usable option. It would encourage grinding for new weapons to use in endgame while keeping older weapons relevant

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              • How every body on these post's dose not seem to under stand. And I blame Luke Smith for his lack of clarity. The weapons are not going away. they will still exist forever. You just will not be able to take them past a certain power level, So they will not stay viable in. ASPIRING , PINNACLE, TIER EVENTS. how many of you take your spare rations into the raid. Or take Luna's Howl into Master Nightfalls. If there are any , Then i bet it's very few. The open world and crucible power level does not matter. So you can run whatever weapon and load out you want to run. Think About it . regular strikes Power level doesn't matter. Public events Power level doesn't matter Lost sectors Power level doesn't matter regular Nightfalls Power level doesn't matter. Do you guy's understand yet. I'ts only Pinnacle event's , And guess what I am not taking ether doctor into the raid. I can't believe there is this much confusion over this subject. Again if the director's cut was more direct and explanative there would not be this much salt on the forum.

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                • Dadfurnace

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                • Edited by Ken_Malibu: 2/27/2020 1:51:48 PM
                  How about this scenario. You get a weapon drop as a reward in strikes. The possible perks are all only relevant to strikes. The armour mods from the armour drops will all enhance your guns and buff you in strikes. So you have a build for strikes and the ability to mix match a variety of strike only perks and mods. You can now as devs add more weapons, armour, perks and mods over time to keep it fresh and you can hone specifically for strikes. This is also applied to every other activity I.e. gambit, PvP, raids etc.

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