I too have been posting on the forums addressing this issue, showing support to the many threads on this topic. On how they should be separated. A lot of games have separation between the two game modes but i keep getting responses from people who act like its blasphemous. I got two that really made me smirk. "D1 couldnt impliment that because *insert bungie excuse here*" Well this is d2 and this issue has come up since vanilla destiny, example: mythoclast, thorn, suros etc. Them making d2 to cater balancing only goes to show that what we explicitly said was an issue, was not a priority to them. My second and most favorite one has been and will be. "Did you ever stop and think that bungie wants it this way?" [spoiler]Joe Dirt: You're gonna stand there, ownin' a fireworks stand, and tell me you don't have no whistlin' bungholes, no spleen splitters, whisker biscuits, honkey lighters, hoosker doos, hoosker don'ts, cherry bombs, nipsy daisers, with or without the scooter stick, or one single whistlin' kitty chaser? Kicking Wing: No... because snakes and sparklers are the only ones I like. Joe Dirt: Well that might be your problem, it's not what you like, it's the consumer. [/spoiler] I too dont want to feel like joe dirt.

I've heard it said often that gamers buy a game for story, but PvP is what keeps them around until the next one. I don't think that's entirely true, at least not in my social circle: most of my gaming buddies buy for the PvP and stay for the PvP, because they really only care about how fun it is to shoot each other in the face. Not to mention how many games are purpose-made PvP games with little to no story and still sell well. Battlefield 4 anyone? LoL? DotA? Overwatch? If a developer relies on PvP to keep players around, to me it means the story was weak and offers little replayable enjoyment (if any, considering you can't really replay Destiny 1's story completely). But, PvP is cheaper to build and manage, because it's fairly small and entirely repetitive, so developers and publishers flock to it as a means of extending a game's lifespan. Not to mention every developer/publisher these days seems to have grand delusions that their game will be the next big e-sport. I say all this as a setup to say this: I understand why they focus on PvP. I understand why they're so dead-set on making sure PvP is balanced. Players are always going to be weaker than AI enemies: that's kind of the point. Hence, abilities that are useful against AI are grossly overpowered against other players, [i]because [/i]players are weaker. And if they're going to bank on PvP retaining players until the next xpak drops, they dang-well want to make sure it's enjoyable. What I DON'T understand is why Bungie refuses to separate the game modes. Plenty of games have been doing this for years. I played an MMO way back from 2005 up through 2012 called Guild Wars. Roughly halfway through it's run before the sequel launched in 2012 (GW1 is still active today) the developer ArenaNet realized they had to separate their PvE and PvP skills and weapons. Making things effective in PvE made them laughably overpowered in PvP, because of course it does. They got on their forums and sent out email newsletters explaining why things were going to change and what it meant for the players. And guess what: I don't recall much complaining. Everyone understood that it needed to happen. Hardcore PvP players screamed "FINALLY!" while the PvE-ers were simply relieved that it wasn't going to interfere with their game. The only complaints came from the guys who dominated PvP and were mad that their domination was about to get tossed. Fast forward and there's another game running today called Warframe. Developer Digital Extremes also realized that you have to separate your PvE and PvP in order to keep both enjoyable. In that game you have different loadouts depending on which game mode you're playing. They function differently. Any multi-player game that allows customization of ability or gear (cosmetic notwithstanding) is going to have a ton of balance issues. The more customization offered, the more difficult balance is. So as a developer you have 4 choices: 1: lock players into a fixed build with no customization (Halo, CoD) and keep your modes concurrent 2: allow customization and keep your game modes concurrent, balancing for PvE, with PvP OP and un-fun (not sure any game does this) 3: allow customization and keep your game modes concurrent, balancing for PvP, with PvE underpowered and un-fun (Destiny, Destiny 2) 4: allow customization but separate your game modes and balance each independently, with fun for all (Guild Wars, Warframe) Any intelligent dev would take option 4 every time. Some, like EA with Battlefield 4, acknowledge that their game is meant to be a PvP game and the PvE mode was sort of tacked on as an afterthought. At least they admit it, and I can respect that. But Bungie seems bound and determined to take an approach hybridizing options 1 and 3. Our class build customization appears to have been drastically scaled back from what it was in D1, to the point of almost none. On the other hand, guns and armor now seem to have mod-slots that allow players to tailor them however they want, which means they're going to have to balance them for PvP. I've only played this beta for a short bit. I've made one run through the story mission and got mostly through the strike before teammates started quitting and couldn't finish. Overall, it's underwhelming at best and a turdburger at worst. Every time I read articles where people have spoken to Bungie (usually Luke Smith) about D2's development and the ideas behind it, I hang my head in disappointment. This franchise had so much going for it back before D1 launched but it's been a fail-whale ever since. A Fun fail-whale, one I do enjoy playing, but also one I am constantly reminded could have been so, so much better.

I was posting about this months before the summer and I felt like no one was listening lol. Glad people are finally coming around and understanding the dynamic of the two modes. It's literally this simple. Pvp=balanced fun Pve=unbalanced fun Separate loot pools, perks, and recharge rates for both. The two will and SHOULD NEVER meet! If Bungie still hasn't addressed this problem I don't think they will. The problem is it would be more work for them and I think their studio is too small for the concept they were trying to create. They have been extremely stubborn in regards to this subject and while their vision sounded great on paper, in real life and in real gameplay, it just doesn't work. You end up alienating one type of the player or the other if you cater to one side or the other.

In response to the common refrain that this is only the beta...yes, that is technically correct. It is not, however, the reveal of a watershed game engine or groundbreaking design. Bungie is working off of the first game (as it should), and that is why it looks and feels so familiar to long-time and even relatively new players. My fundamental concern is that this build--at some relatively recent stage in the process--was taken seriously enough to be chosen by the Bungie Braintrust as "the" first impression for the game. They had to know that kinetic and energy weapons felt nearly indistinguishable and--at times--downright boring, right? They had to know that grenades and supers were nearly non-existent, didn't they? The TWAB portrays it as though it took 10,000 man hours at Bungie to happen upon the Power Ammo famine. Yet the same problem hit the player base like a freight train within 30 minutes. What objective indicia screamed out, "this is the build to demonstrate that PVE and PVP have made meaningful steps towards harmonious coexistence"? Perhaps budgetary and time constraints dictated that they give us this build for the beta rather than something that will be more reflective of the final product. But Bungie's relatively stubborn mindset that what is good for the PVP goose is also good for the PVE gander is nothing new. How many times has Deej doled out the old company line, "The Destiny sandbox is a place where guardians can discover kick-ass loot through glorious combat in the wild and also retain their exact same identity in Shaxx's Crucible"? Thus, I remain skeptical that this beta build is showing anything other than what it was intended to show: expansive changes made to prioritize gun skill in PVP. Finally, if the beta is not the time to have a constructive conversation--that Bungie actively invited--about the game's systems, then when is? After the launch on September 6? Isn't that what happened three years ago when Bungie rode in on Halo's very large coattails? The product at launch featured an utterly incoherent story, Master Rahool's shenanigans, and a broken investment system (for the sake of transparency, I played and played and played that mess, because the Vault of Glass was phenomenal, the community was great, and the space magic combat was a hoot). It makes sense to at least talk about this now, with the goal being that we will all be spending much, much less time on these forums come September and far more time just playing what hopefully will be a wonderful sequel. P.S. Bungie, is it asking too much for you to make power ammo rain from the heavens and grenades flow to players like the salmon of Capistrano?

Why make Pve easy? You kids just want easy mode enabled. PvE in Destiny 1 is ridiculously easy after grinding to max light. Don't worry. Once your character is maxed out, it won't be so hard for you.

I agree completely. Fixed Talent Trees + Ability Cooldowns + “Freedom Slots” + Power Ammo Drop Rate = Monotonous PVE Gameplay Over the course of three years—and carrying into Destiny 2, it would seem—too many sacrifices made upon the sacred alter of “PVP balancing” have materially detracted from what differentiates Destiny from the myriad other shooters out there. I can shoot bullets at people in Call of Duty, Battlefield, PUBG, H1Z1…the list goes on. But in how many games can I fly 40 feet into the air, fling two grenades made of purple void goo, launch a tracking rocket that will burst into several smaller rockets on impact, and finish things off by hurling a giant purple void bomb from the palm of my hand? Space magic is what makes Destiny the game that it is. But by nerfing countless exotics into uselessness (see Red Death, Hawkmoon, Thorn, Last Word, Suros, oh you get the point), making bizarre change after bizarre change to special ammo, and—now—slowing ability cooldowns to a painful crawl, the game has started to feel more and more like a generic shooter, which is pretty darn sad. Case in point, on my team’s first run on the Inverted Spire strike, only one (ONE!) power ammo brick dropped between the three of us collectively throughout the entire strike. The two unfortunate souls who got no power ammo—myself being one--were reduced to plinking away at the final boss with kinetic hand cannons (yeah, we had no energy ammo either). This mind-numbing experience brought back swell memories of wailing on Rockets McDingleberry in Vanilla Destiny for what felt like hours on end. And things were made worse by the fact that cooldowns on supers and grenades now have to be clocked with a sundial. Rather than having that wonderful space-magic experience of chaining Titan bubbles with Warlock tickle-fingers, fusion-spamming the boss, or walling off an onslaught of Vex ads with a line of solar grenades, my friends and I were bouncing around (with the new and downgraded super-floof jumps) like pogo sticks armed with nothing but a pistol and our powerless fists. How could this happen? Weren’t “Freedom Slots” (Bungie's super snazzy spin on saying, “We have officially waved the white flag on shotgun balancing”) supposed to enhance the PVE experience? Why do I feel like I am playing a souped-up Call of Duty in outer space? Limiting grenade/super abilities’ roles and significance in combat to this extent seriously waters down the Destiny experience. More importantly, why must players’ abilities in PVE be inextricably tied to their abilities in PVP? Can’t Lord Shaxx operate the Crucible as he sees fit, with a mandate to all guardians that they work on their gun skill so as to not be overly reliant on the super-sexy abilities bestowed upon them by the Traveler (or whatever fills that role while Gary is still hijacking the Traveler)? It seems patently absurd—when the whole premise of Destiny is to defeat the mythical Darkness…and Gary…I guess—that Guardians’ powers will be purposely scaled back for the sake of fostering a competitive environment in Shaxx’s simulations. I know that lore and story have never really been a point of emphasis in this franchise (“The Vanguard still believe Rasputin to be simply a Warmind.” Seriously?#$% How did that dialogue ever get approved?), but this just makes no sense. And again, I have loved playing Countdown thus far. My friends and I have had more fun playing Countdown the past two days than we have had in Destiny 1’s PVP for years. But why on Earth or Nessus can’t a guardian—who is imbued with space magic ninja skills—throw more than three (now ineffective) grenades in an entire strike??? It feels like we are being forced to bring butter knives—super balanced, tremendously fair butter knives—to an interstellar sword fight. PVE already had to cede customizable skill trees, random gun rolls, special weapons, and titan skating/awesome horizontal mobility for the sake of making things easier on the Crucible team. Practically eliminating abilities and half of the game’s weapons (that are already smushed into a single slot) amounts to nothing more than using a sledgehammer to crack a nut.

https://www.bungie.net/en/News/Article/46077/7_This-Week-At-Bungie--07202017 This was posted by Cosmo on another post. I think everyone should give this a good read. I also think you will find it interesting and helpful if you are not pleased with the beta.

I get it. Bungie has made thing too hard for PvE, but just know, all of these things you have complained about, bungie has already fixed. They have said before that the beta is an old version of what they had. They fixed grenade, super, melee, power ammo drops, and many other things. We just need to wait until the full game. Everything will feel like it should.

This is the worst Destiny has ever been. Bungie has their heads up their asses. The majority of the player base plays PvE, not PvP. Nobody bought Destiny for PvP either.

Agreed. PVP and PVE has no business correlating. I'm move PVE-centric, as I focus on storytelling/building/lore and gameplay than I do the competitive side, but there's no reason that PVE should ruin PVP, and vice versa. They [i]need[/i] to be separated. I'm floored that Bungie thinks we can't handle the mix and matching of our abilities. It's insulting. Young adults can surely figure it out. Part of the fun is building your own character and "become legend", as Bungie would often say.

I played D1 at launch and quit about 3 months later due to the high cost of DLC (most already included on the disc), the additional cost of DLC not in the season pass ($180+ total cost of the game), and primarily Bungies focus on PVP and a small group of hard core raiders. Imagine my surprise when I get a beta invite only to find that D2 is a PVP and hard core player focused game that will cost at least $100+. That graphics, especially the rain look great, but the rest of the game plays like a Chinese knock-off on steam. Anyone who thinks Bungie will fix everything before launch because this is beta is fooling themselves and have learn nothing from the history of Bungie and Destiny. They still keep forcing their narrow PVP focus down the rest of the player base. At this point it looks to be a bigger mess then Mass Effect Andromeda They had one chance to win me back, and as they said in Jerry Maguire : "You lost me at hello"

Trials has -blam!-ed this game now, because it was such a success and kept the game alive for abit there Bungie now think that this is what everyone wants, a more PvP cater game... I am very pissed off about the changes of the Ammo/Weapon system, thats one of the things Bungie actually got correct in the first one and it was flawless tbh.. I DO NOT WANT 2 -blam!-ING PRIMARYS!??! ****BRING BACK HEAVY/SPECIAL AMMO****

My solution is outlandish. I want two games. A PvP and a PvE game, and I buy the one I want, or both if I want to. All the hard yards with maps, characters is there already. Failing that, a complete separation between the two, with three characters for PvP with PvP gear obtained [i]only[/i] from PvP activities, and the alternate set for PvE. Can't be done? Bullshit. It's a program, not a physical object. [u]Anything[/u] can be done! An added thought. If both games cost 100 Plus buckazoids, then that's fine. I'm paying for a game in which I don't play half now, so no difference to me. At 100 each, they'd both be [b]great[/b] games, one would hope.