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Edited by Cortana Five: 9/16/2014 11:45:21 PM
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THE NEW IP Bungie Formula:Durandal, Cortana, Joyeuse?

***Long friggin' post alert!*** [u]THIS IS A REVISED VERSION![/u] [quote][u]PLEASE FAVORITE THIS THREAD FOR FURTHER UPDATES![/u][/quote] The vast majority of my edits are due to [url=http://www.bungie.net/Forums/posts.aspx?postID=40929715&postRepeater1-p=8#41730446]Ender's post here[/url] among others. I will cite him as much as possible in here. [quote]"My name is Cortana, of the same steel and temper as Joyeuse and Durendal."[/quote] [b]Reader's Digest Version-ish[/b] This quote is the focus of my theory for a "formula" for Bungie trilogies. The quote above speaks of three famous swords that had once come together in battle. The three swords seem to correspond with two of the AIs from Marathon (Durandal) and Halo (Cortana). The third sword, Joyeuse, is the mystery AI and holder. If the first two swords can be proven to purposely correspond with the game characters, then perhaps Joyeuse and its holder (Charlemagne) is what the new IP's characters will be like. This theory also ties into several other theories. But in order to connect them while making sense, I must explain how and why the AIs and their swords correspond. As you read, keep [url=http://marathongame.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page]Pfhorpedia[/url] handy if you're not in tune with the Marathon universe. While we're at it, [url=http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page]this[/url] and [url=http://marathon.bungie.org/story/]this[/url] may come in handy. IF YOU WANT TO PLAY THE MARATHON TRILOGY YOURSELF: Download the games through [url=http://source.bungie.org/index.php?title=Get_Marathon]Aleph One[/url]. We'll be talking a lot of Marathon in here, my friends. So to set the mood: ***JUMP PAD ACTIVATION INITIATION START*** ***TRANSPORT WHEN READY*** Dear reader, This is going to be a huge post. A [i]good[/i] post, but a long one. I mean, this [i]will[/i] take several slots to cover. So, grab a nice cup of coffee and a pair of reading glasses or something that will keep you awake and in your chair. Until the coffee passes though. [b]I will also ask you to take this thing with a pinch of salt[/b]. I don't know if this is the truth in its entirety, and you probably don't either. Unless you're someone like Joe Staten or Jason Jones who's [i]really[/i] bored on a coffee break and stumbled upon this thing. Then, of course, you'd know if this is dumb speculation or not. Wishful thinking, right? [u]Please, please, please!!![/u] Give me feedback on this, tell me about anything you may dig up on this stuff, and if any of my facts/lore/spelling/[b]grammer[/b]/bad jokes/historical events are incorrect. ***JUMP PAD ACTIVATION INITIATION START*** ***TRANSPORT WHEN READY*** [quote]Durandal-Durendal (Endurance- True definition unknown)*[/quote] *The name probably comes from the French verb "durer", "to endure". [u]Sword Info:[/u] In The Song of Roland, the sword is said to contain within its golden hilt one tooth of Saint Peter, blood of Saint Basil, hair of Saint Denis, and a piece of the raiment of the Blessed Virgin Mary. In the poem, *[i]Roland attempts to break Durendal by smiting it against a marble block ten times. This proves fruitless. The myth of him creating La Brèche is merely a folktale of the land. It is not stated as such in La Chanson de Roland (The Song of Roland).[/i] According to Ludovico Ariosto's Orlando Furioso it once belonged to Hector of Troy, and was given to Roland by Maugris. *[i]Orlando Furioso is a work created centuries after La Chanson do Roland. In La Chanson, it is made clear that Charlemagne was given instructions by the angel Gabriel to let Roland wield Durendal.[/i] By Ender. In [i]Marathon[/i], Durandal [u]told the player[/u] that he did not want to suffer the same fate as Leela, so he asked to be destroyed.* The player finds out that Durandal was not actually destroyed, just as Roland couldn't destroy the sword. (Note that the fate of Leela turned out to be completely different and that Durandal didn't actually want to be destroyed. He was loopy and rampant.) *[i]Please note that Durandal's request to be destroyed was part of a plot of his own, and not an honest request and that Leela was not actually destroyed either.[/i] [b]Holders:[/b] Hector of Troy and Count Roland Note: [i]MRN54 [url=http://www.marathon.org/story/mjolnir.html]may or may not be you[/url].[/i] [u]Hector of Troy & Mjolnir Recon Number 54[/u] (Not the forum ninja) Hector was a Trojan prince and the greatest fighter of Troy in the Trojan War and the son of Priam and Hecuba, a descendant of Dardanus (son of Zeus and Electra). Because Hector was a descendant of several gods, he would in theory be a hybrid of sorts. The parallel here is that MRN54 [i]is[/i] a cyborg and a fighter. From Marathon.Bungie.Org: [quote] There are those references to your physical ability: [i]You slam your fist in frustration onto the control panel[/i](Manual page 2) Whether this is of significance or not depends largely on what material the control panel is made of. We have no information on this. [i]It's funny, but you've always been the colony's trouble shooter. You're bigger and stronger, and a better shot. In games, you always scored the most points and looked the hero. (Manual page 2)[/i] [/quote]. [quote] Alas! the gods have lured me on to my destruction. ... death is now indeed exceedingly near at hand and there is no way out of it- for so Zeus and his son Apollo the far-darter have willed it, though heretofore they have been ever ready to protect me.} My doom has come upon me; let me not then die ingloriously and without a struggle, but let me first do some great thing that shall be told among men hereafter." -Spoken by Hector facing Achilles, after a missed spear-throw, The Iliad Book XXII Lines 299-305.[/quote] This quote could represent the AIs in the trilogy toying and luring the player towards his destruction or towards their will. The AIs had protected the player for their plans, and in a sense, the player was doomed to what they had in store for him. [u]Count Roland & MRN54:[/u] The tale of Roland's death is retold in the eleventh century poem [i]The Song of Roland[/i], where he is equipped with an unbreakable sword, enchanted by various Christian relics, named Durendal. As said earlier, Roland couldn't break the sword, just as MRN54 couldn't break Durandal throughout the trilogy. Orlando Furiouso (among other works) includes Roland's battle with a Saracen giant named Ferracutus who is only vulnerable at his navel. The W'rkncacnter; a being(s) seemingly indestructible may have been a reference to Ferractus. The Sacren's navel may have been represented by activating a Jjaro station to trap the W'rkncacnter. [quote] [i]To stop the Pfhor from their folly and our demise, you must activate the ancient station that Yrro used eons ago to trap the W'rkncacnter. If we can activate it in time, it will crush the Pfhor fleet before we're all destroyed.[/i] *You Think You're Big Time? You're Gonna Die Big Time! (Terminal 1)*[/quote] [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Ender If we restrict our view to the first Marathon game, it is more likely that the Ferracutus analogy is to The Pfhor. They are larger in numbers, more technologically advanced, and ready to squash us. We, however, find that they rely heavily on the S'pht slaves they captured. Durandal instructs us to free them and we do so, allowing a rebellion to unfold, crushing the Pfhor attack.[/quote] At last, a confirmation (one of many) of the connection between Roland's sword and your well behaved AI (Yes, that was sarcasm): The first terminal on Fire! Fire! Fire! Fire! Fire! relates the tale of Count Roland, who near death, attempts to break his sword to prevent it from being taken by the Saracens. [quote][i]Count Roland smites upon the marble stone; I cannot tell you how he hewed it and smote; Yet the blade breaks not nor splinters, though it groans; Upward to heaven it rebounds from the blow. When the count sees it never will be broke, Then to himself right softly he makes moan; 'Ah, Durandal, fair, hallowed, and devote, What store of relics lies in thy hilt of gold!' -From The Song of Roland (Translated by Dorothy Sayers, Viking Penguin, NY, NY, 1957)[/i] *Fire! Fire! Fire! Fire! Fire! (Terminal 1)*[/quote] [u]Roland and Charlemagne references by Durandal:[/u] -[url=http://marathon.bungie.org/story/sphtkr.html#Feel%20the%20Noise]Feel the noise[/url] -[url=http://marathon.bungie.org/story/roland.html]Roland[/url] By gathering this information, I can say with confidence that Durandal is [i]defiantly[/i] the spitting AI image of the sword Durendal, and that it's holders Roland and Hector are the inspiration for MRN54's situation involving the AIs in Marathon; specifically Durandal. ***JUMP PAD ACTIVATION INITIATION START*** ***TRANSPORT WHEN READY** [Edited on 02.12.2011 1:12 PM PST]

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  • Blizzard have expertise AND infrastructure in place to run MMO games, and that may very well be the reason Bungie signed a deal with them. In the case of most games, the publisher is more or less irrelevant except for funding, but in the case of MMOs the publisher becomes much more involved. Anyway, here's a thought: the new Bungie game will be set on board Marathon, except *during* it's journey to Tau Ceti. So it will be an MMO, but with a timeline already in place. Eventually the ship would reach Tau Ceti and the MMO community (who by this time would have honed their combat and trading and organisation skills) would get to play out the destiny of the human colonists in their battle with the Phor (whether on Marathon or planet side).

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  • I don't think you quite understand the partnership between Activision and Bungie. Activision is basically Bungie's ATM. As Jason Jones said, "Just give us the money, and have faith that we'll make something great." Activision is nothing but a [i]publisher[/i]. And I never said that the new IP will have a ton to do with the other games. My point was that they follow the events of three swords and their holders. Besides, to be "connected by lore" would be putting the games in the same universe. This is only about how the game plots are structured. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] bone Quad I'm betting the new IP has little to do with Marathon or Halo (though literary allusion and symbolism are sure to abound). Activision Blizzard partnered with Bungie, because only Activision Blizzard and Activision Blizzard alone had the expertise that Bungie required for their new IP. Bungie is making a departure from Halo, and they are making it cross platform (something they couldn't do with Microsoft) with their new IP focused on broad appeal. Put it together: Activision Blizzard partnership: (They made the most popular MMO) Bungie: New IP has broad appeal. When you partner with Activision Blizzard for their expertise, when you want broad appeal, you get a cross platform MMO whether that be MMORPG is unknown). It may be connected by lore to Marathon or to Halo, but I doubt it. Edit: Interesting read though. I love the theory, and I don't intend to be party-pooper.[/quote]

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  • I'm betting the new IP has little to do with Marathon or Halo (though literary allusion and symbolism are sure to abound). Activision Blizzard partnered with Bungie, because only Activision Blizzard and Activision Blizzard alone had the expertise that Bungie required for their new IP. Bungie is making a departure from Halo, and they are making it cross platform (something they couldn't do with Microsoft) with their new IP focused on broad appeal. Put it together: Activision Blizzard partnership: (They made the most popular MMO) Bungie: New IP has broad appeal. When you partner with Activision Blizzard for their expertise, when you want broad appeal, you get a cross platform MMO whether that be MMORPG is unknown). It may be connected by lore to Marathon or to Halo, but I doubt it. Edit: Interesting read though. I love the theory, and I don't intend to be party-pooper. [Edited on 02.12.2011 12:57 PM PST]

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  • JEEZ thats alot to process good post.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] cortana 5 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] valker That was a fantastic read, and boy am I glad I sat down with some coffee and read that -blam!-! Awsome job man. I am now stoked for Bungie Aerospace... at least I [i]think[/i] it'll be aerospace, but who knows, right?[/quote]You know, while we're on that subject, Bungie Aerospace doesn't sound like a game. If anything, it sounds like a platform. What game includes the company's name in such a literal fashion?[/quote]In-game hub? Like Waypoint except for Bungie related material. Post-Halo of course.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] valker That was a fantastic read, and boy am I glad I sat down with some coffee and read that -blam!-! Awsome job man. I am now stoked for Bungie Aerospace... at least I [i]think[/i] it'll be aerospace, but who knows, right?[/quote]You know, while we're on that subject, Bungie Aerospace doesn't sound like a game. If anything, it sounds like a platform. What game includes the company's name in such a literal fashion?

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  • That was a fantastic read, and boy am I glad I sat down with some coffee and read that -blam!-! Awsome job man. I am now stoked for Bungie Aerospace... at least I [i]think[/i] it'll be aerospace, but who knows, right?

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  • Far as my five cents go, reading the inscription on the sword and the other two AIs background (they all played ship AI at some point), I guess Joyeuse would be the AI of some sort of personal training vessel, meant for the practice flights of undergraduate officers. That, before things went south.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] chuckiej2 2) CortanaV, what are your theories on what happened to the AI Joyeuse in this new universe? Is it lost or locked away somewhere? Perhaps it is on a ship and all hands were lost some time before the game?[/quote]It's up in the air at this point. If the legend about the sword being retrieved by a knight is to be true (which I CANNOT CONFIRM) then perhaps in a game the AI may have been lost, abandoned on a ship, etc. and later retrieved. The inscription on the blade is "anyone's sword" so that could lead to even MORE possibilities.

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  • I really enjoyed reading that! At first I was thinking "why all this detail?" but when I got to the end it made sense. A few thoughts: 1) It is a new IP we are talking about here so: a) it will not be linked to Halo or Marathon in any real story way (Yes, yes I know. Halo and Marathon had similar stories/backdrops but were not in the same universe. The Marathon logo was used in Halo. But If they were in the same universe, Microsoft would own Marathon too, right? Not really but having the two directly linked would be bad for a future Marathon game ) Well I guess it could be linked to Marathon since Bungie still owns it (and sold me a lovely hoodie with the logo), but when they say new IP to me that means completely new. b) Bungie is planning this to be a 10 year universe with all of the extra-gaming media like books. So the player might start out as a "nameless knight" that finds Joyeuse but he/she won't stay that way for long. 2) CortanaV, what are your theories on what happened to the AI Joyeuse in this new universe? Is it lost or locked away somewhere? Perhaps it is on a ship and all hands were lost some time before the game? [Edited on 01.16.2011 10:06 PM PST]

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  • Yes I though New Monarchy fit pretty well. Seraphs could also fit in since they are angels.

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  • I was considering putting something up about that, actually. "Osiris" sounds like an obvious reference to the Egyptian god. "Seven Seraphs"- Seven "[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seraph]burning ones[/url]?" I'll have to get out by Bible tonight and check it out. And then there's the obvious seven in there. "New Monarchy" is what's really grabbing my attention. If anything, it could have to do with Charlemagne's rule or how he was the father of Europe. It would be safe to say that this new IP would involve starting something new, or unifying a region, etc. if we are to keep paralleling things to the swords and their holders. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] SPAR7ANB71 This is an awesome theory. You are definitely on to something. If it helps, there is some news on Bungies next IP at HBO. Maybe you'll recognize something from your research. I guess they put copyrights on "Osiris" "Seven Seraphs" "New Monarchy" and "Dead Orbit"[/quote]

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  • This is an awesome theory. You are definitely on to something. If it helps, there is some news on Bungies next IP at HBO. Maybe you'll recognize something from your research. I guess they put copyrights on "Osiris" "Seven Seraphs" "New Monarchy" and "Dead Orbit"

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  • Just read the main post and the links, and I noticed a similarity (or so I think) not sure if any one else has mentioned but here goes: [quote] Maybe the knight who recovered Joyeuse could count as a holder. If a game (or part of one) was set up around rescuing the AI Joyeuse, then perhaps the player is the nameless knight. Which [i]would[/i] make sense. From the time of Marathon to Halo, the character has been mysterious and without much of a past (disregarding the Halo books that include backstory). The inscription the sword holds may support this theory. "Anyone's sword" could mean that anyone could pick it up and use it, the knight included. The inscription may also imply that the AI may be a freelancer in some sense. A freelance AI may mean rampancy, thus why it was being contained in a grave or treasury. [/quote] The character(s) that I find most resemble the description above are quite contrary to our previous heros. In fact they are both Villains! One we have fought, the other we have not. Those two are Mendicate Bias and The Gravemind. Lets start with Mendicate Bias. 1) He is an AI, a rampant AI. That makes him easily associated with Durandal and Cortana, and thus the swords. 2) How to connect him to Joy? That I haven't quite conquered yet, any help from any one would be nice. 3) We know Mendicate Bias does unite with Cortana during the final mission of Halo 3, but then we have the problem of where to find Durandal. 4) There has been speculation that part of Mendicate Bias is contained within Cortana, how exactly that might fit is unknown to me. 5) Mendicate Bias has been in a 'grave' when with the Gravemind, and has been in a prison courtesy of Offensive Bias. 6) The Gravemind has Obiviously wielded Mendicate Bias. Now for the Gravemind, a much easier connection: 1) It is very easy to consider the Gravemind anyone, as it can assimilate anyone and thus it is anyone. 2) The Gravemind has been a source of MASSIVE change and persuasion in the universe, starting with the Precursors (I think) and the Forerunners. Conquering both. 3) The Gravemind can bee viewed as a nameless warrior (rather than knight) to retrieve Mendicate Bias after it was lost to the Forerunners. I think it fits rather well in and of itself. A large ruling force, finding the weapon it needed, being considered Anyone, etc. On top of that, the Gravemind has been responsible for destroying Chiefs 'family' (his race) and the Chief swore to kill it. which he does, as well as having an allegiance with it in order to kill a common enemy. Durandal is still missing, so perhaps he'll turn up shortly, who's to know? that or the Flood itself is a organic AI created by the Precursors and is in itself Joyeuse. But thats just speculation because Mendicate is no named anything along the lines of Joyeuse.

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  • Well this certainly was an awesome read! If you don't mind, a thought came to mind about the third A.I. You mentioned the sword was berried in a grave after a great war. What if this war was the war of the forrunners and the flood. It was 300 yrs long and the forrunners did make quite a few super advanced A.I. SPOILERS : At the end of Halo 3 (LEGENDARY DIFFICULTY), master cheif, cyro-frozen and in half of forward onto dawn, was seen crashing on to a supposed forrunner planet (due to the designs on it). SPOILERS : Also it is to be mentioned that just as Jorge was taken away in slip stream somewhere in space, there was another spartan that could have suffered the same fate and we just did not know it. The spartan Sam mentioned in the fall of reach dying tragically in a covenant ship exploding from the inside due to spartan placed bombs. This actually sounds pretty random but what if, and I'm only saying if, the slip stream was activated as an attempt for the ship to escape. Maybe somehow the direct exposure to the force of the bombs and the slip stream sent him into slipstream at a random direction, say toward a certain possible forrunner planet with a possible third A.I. that kept him alive and helped him. Sam was one of Cheif's best friend's growing up in the spartan 2 program (parallel). This is only speculation. :) please tell me what you think

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  • How did you come across these "three swords"?

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  • Oh, I was pretty late to the party D: Ah well, props to Cortana 5 for getting there first :)

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Jason 735 Joyeuse: The Joyous, anybody's sword. This one seems the most dangerous as an AI. One who willingly serves his friends, but truly loves to kill? Joyously? I am reminded of the Mormagil in J.R.R. Tolkien's story of Turin Turumbar. A sword that will serve any that will kill with it; a sword that will bite on friends if ill supplied with foes. [/quote]That's an interesting comparison. I'm wondering if Joyeuse will go with the anger "red" stage of rampancy, or go with what (if I recall correctly) SonicJohn said, go with all three colors/stages, like in the legend. I don't really know if there's anything else to suggest if Joyeuse will be good or evil.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] robyslobbynobby Very epic post. I just wanna say though the part about Joyeuse getting rescued and stuff sounded a lot like Cortana being held prisoner in the covenant ship, being rescued by John, so maybe Joyeuse is like another part of Cortana you know "forged from the same steel" cause didn't she split herself in reach?[/quote] She not only split herself during Reach (her fragment), but she also did many times as well throughout Installation 04, the events taken in [i]First Strike[/i], and Installation 05 also.

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  • Very epic post. I just wanna say though the part about Joyeuse getting rescued and stuff sounded a lot like Cortana being held prisoner in the covenant ship, being rescued by John, so maybe Joyeuse is like another part of Cortana you know "forged from the same steel" cause didn't she split herself in reach?

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  • Very good read and excellent theory... i believe everything that you wrote is in fact true and not a theory

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  • I didn't read the whole forum, so if someone else pointed this out first, props to 'em. I would point out that in Duranal and Cortana's names and histories outside of the gaming universe, something of their identity in the world of Bungie can be found: Durandal: probably from the same root as endurance and durability, Durandal is the unbreakable sword. And the unbreakable AI. "The dead walk again. We cannot wait. -Blake" Cortana: The Sword of Mercy. The Cortana had its point removed (but the edges remain) and is considered to be a symbol of mercy. Cortana showed something new to the bungie world. Kindness. She shows signs of truly loving her friends and is willing to sacrifice herself for humanity. She is sharp and deadly, but also in a word, merciful. "The Captain! His vitals are fading! Please, Chief, hurry!" Joyeuse: The Joyous, anybody's sword. This one seems the most dangerous as an AI. One who willingly serves his friends, but truly loves to kill? Joyously? I am reminded of the Mormagil in J.R.R. Tolkien's story of Turin Turumbar. A sword that will serve any that will kill with it; a sword that will bite on friends if ill supplied with foes.

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  • Yikes! I abandon this thread for a week and cool stuff gets posted! That is a great find. I find it interesting that Cortana and Durandal are constantly found together, but with a different third sword: Joyeuse, Sauvagine, and now Almace. I still stand by my theory that because of the inscription on Cortana's blade, it's Joyeuse. It's just hard to prove my point and otherwise. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] EnsnaredCadaver In my seacrh for informantion related to this topic I came across the wikipedia page of [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wayland_the_smith]Wayland the smith[/url]. Listed on that page and under the heading "Swords described as having been forged by Wayland" are Durendal, Curtana, and Almace. Accordig to the [i]Karlamagnus Saga[/i] the third sword was Almace, not Joyeuse. Although, I definitely still believe Joyeuse to be the sword of Charlemagne. I could not however find any reference to who forged it. I also found some other info that claims Joyeuse was forged to contain the Lance of Longinus within its pommel. The Lance of Longinus is also known as the Holy Lance, Spear of Destiny, Holy Spear, Spear of Longinus, and Spear of Christ. This is a great thread and I hope this info can be of some help.[/quote]

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] cortana 5 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Professor24 Is it possible for it to be an MMO and a FPS, or just one or the other?[/quote]Well, I'm not sure about the genre. This theory attempts to figure out the plot.[/quote]You can have both, there's a game that's an FPS and an RTS.

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  • The Spear of Destiny, the Lance of Longinus connected to Joyeuse... The search continues! I had a feeling there was a connection somehow with the Lance, but must have oveerlooked Joyeuse being used to contain it within its pommel. Great find, Cadaver. I will have to continue researching.

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  • The spear of christ? Do you think its gonna be possible for some sort of connection of an AI and a Bloodline that dates all the way back to forerunners? The signifigence of the spear was the blood of christ, the Bloodline, same with the holy grail, and it could easily be seen that someone within the storyline has an ancient bloodline that ties back to the forerunners i hope someone can shed some light on these ideas, but i can totally see this all tying in with the future stories withen the game c:

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