[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Locke357 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Seggi31 Fox news? Lol. I'm actually a pretty firm liberal. I'd describe myself as a social democrat, but, before that, I'd describe myself as a rationalist, and I will say with confidence that sympathies with Islam as it is practiced in the middle east are derived either from ignorance or a sense of guilt. Yours might be a bit of both. [url=http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/wests-liberals-fail-to-help-says-hirsi-ali-20120415-1x1jh.html]Relevant[/url]. Liberals as a collective need to stop giving a bad name to the liberalism I love and stand up for the rights being crushed by Islam.[/quote]Well I better understand your position now, thanks, though you still seem quite misguided. You see, you keep referencing to the concept of "Islam" as being an inherently oppressive force used equally in many countries, where in reality, just like christianity, how it's applied is defined solely by the people and the leaders of the people. While undoubtedly the people in many countries throughout the world suffer from a lack of basic human rights and are being oppressed by their governments, like the people in afghanistan were, it is clear that the US model of intervention has worked. Have we brought freedom to these people? No. Have we brought rights to these people? No. All we have done is militarily occupy them for over a decade, completely removing and semblance of self-determination and sovereignty they had. These people needs human rights, and need freedom. On that we agree. I simply hold that the US method of intervention clearly has not worked, and these people we're trying to help have received neither. [/quote] The United States has brought the Afghan people the freedom of democracy. It has brought the Iraqis and Kurds freedom from the persecution and totalitarianism of the Ba'ath state. The greatest threat to human rights in Afghanistan, right now, is compromise with the Taliban. The failures of American intervention do not point to a problem with interventionism per se, but a problem with the techniques, policy, and quivering contradictions that restrict the possibilities of such policy. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] coolmike699 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Seggi31 Liberals as a collective need to stop giving a bad name to the liberalism I love and stand up for the rights being crushed by Islam.[/quote] No, we need to stand up for the rights being crushed by dictators, not Islam. There are billions of people practicing Islam who don't infringe on anyone's rights, and people of other religions and beliefs do that too. [/quote] Islamism is a far more powerful force than Christian dominionism in the Liberal West. If you're born in the Islamic world, you're pretty much guaranteed to be, to some degree, under the authoritarian rule of Islamist law. [Edited on 04.19.2012 9:40 AM PDT]