If consider yourself a person that runs the rqlaid but cannot run the relic you are not good at the raid sorry to say the relic is easy to use the smash AOE does it all i dont understand how people cannot run the relic like its rocket science it has three attacks and a shield not tht hard so if u wanna do the raid find a team they are easy to find Ohhh and adding the randomizer was a beautiful idea making people have to learn and not just rely on 1 person the whole time

A raid is ment to be hard!! I for one, played WoW years ago, now if you want hard... Fight the lich king (lvl 70) while you and everyone else is (lvl 80) and still die 8828349292 times over. It is about talking, it does not matter how much damage you or the enemy does, or the health of either! If you's explain what you's are going to do there will be no dramas. I for one have been in a team of 5 on PS3 hard Atheon, we died 2 times, once was when someone needed a piss and another was when we were showing people where we needed them to go. Now the 360... That's a different story, you either get 10 year olds, people with mics WHO DONT TALK! -and/or- the usual lvl 30 saying I CANT USE THE RELIC, I DONT KNOW WHAT TO DO, IVE NEVER KILLED ATHEON!!! Now if you sit there for 5 minutes, think this through... 5 minutes of planning step by step, backup plans after the backup plan fails. This will save you 50 minutes of dying. 5 minutes of planning or 50 minutes of dying..? I for one like to talk, I talk too much sometimes.. But talking and call outs beat kids or even those old men sitting there playing either breathing in their mic or not even talking.. *At the end of the day, your lvl 25 and new to the raiding game, you do 27% less damage than lvl 26? ASK FOR HELP!! If you get yelled at and told your "doing it wrong, go there, do that!" ITS CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM! Use your mic.

I like that it's hard, but I definitely agree with you. I've had limited time to raid and whenever I did get invited to a fire team I was kicked because of my class or weapons. I don't understand why I have a bunch of maxed Legendaries and Icebreaker. I've been raid ready for a month and have not been able to get people together. It seems so easy, but it's been a royal pain in the @ss.

I like it. It makes everybody pull their weight, no more lazy bastards only sitting outside the gate.

1163 vs 826

1136 vs 818

Practice makes perfect!!! We had our main 2 relic holders pre patch and now we have our entire main group comfortable with running the relic... we also use the Templar(yes while we cheese him for the chest no he is not hard to beat legit) to train newer raiders on the mechanics of the relic. The newer transport method is better yes it gave it a little more of a challenge for a bit... I don't like people catching heat however for messing up with the relic especially when the game gets glitchy like self healing minotaurs/fire born hobgobs/ only 2 being teleported...

Although the intentions of the change were good, I think it's an unnecessary change. There's still usually two people who are comfortable using the relic in a raid, and when one of those two aren't sent it's a wipe. I know I should find people who are good at using the relic, but not many people are!

I think it's a good thing. Everyone should be good with the relic, so how would they become good with it if they're never allowed to use it?

In my opinion it spices the raid up and before the change everyone did the same role all of the time and now it is a lot nicer and more unpredictable

Man up and take the relic. Lead your team!

1097 vs 788

I'm gonna say yes only because in doing so, they broke the mechanic completely. It seems like the first teleport he does always messes up. Either sending one person or no one at all. Too many wipes from this.

I decide ld to put this into a spoiler because it's kind of long, but I'd appreciate anyone who took the time to read it anyways haha. [spoiler] I think you must have had a lot of bad experiences with raid groups. First, it doesn't at all take an elitist or a gaming genius to figure out how to use the relic, so if a team constantly dies because of that they should be frustrated since it is something you could literally Google and learn in 30 seconds, or could be told by your fireteam. I had that problem at first with my group, but right after I messaged them all a quick tutorial on using the relic, we beat Atheon. Everything you complain about hardly ever happens to me or my raid group anymore. The first time we did the raid it was probably the funniest time I had with a group of people I had never met before. So much fun that we all decided to start our own small little clan together. Sure, we got our a** handed to us trying to figure it all out the first time, it's supposed to frustrate and challenge you. It's Bungie's " hardest challenge yet" not the worlds easiest, longest strike. In the end we learned to push through and work as a team better. Eventually it does become a casual fight, and you feel like a boss when you are able to fight in the vault like that- all calm and relaxed. All of the people in our group are casual gamers, we only get together on weekends when we aren't at school, work, sports, are tending to a family (so I wouldn't say we're 24/7 gamers...). We get the raid done in around an hour or so if we don't purposely screw around and mess up. Usually, I find myself doing raids more often not for myself, but to help out a lower level group that needs a few tips or extra firepower- even after I already beat the raid that week. I'll even post on forums sometimes saying I just want to join a raid group for the sake of raiding itself. The problem I've found many times with helping low levels is not the fact that they're weak, not that they don't yet know what to do or that I think I'm better. The problem is sometimes is that the individuals simply suck at being a teammate. I carried a level 26 through Atheon in about 15 minutes, why? Because he listened when we told him what the team has to do to beat Atheon. He never died once in that fight, and was actually pretty helpful, even learned how to use the relic his first run. Other groups, I notice will point fingers and yell at their teammates when they are all low levels for even a normal raid, then one will be afraid to say he doesn't know what to do and nobody knows why they keep dying when someone doesn't do their job. There is hardly ever a high level player who will call you a scrub and kick you from the fireteam, but when someone agrees to help you, be someone who is help-able.[/spoiler]

The change was fine, but all the bugs that came along with it really ruin the fun almost completely. We don't need health regenerating enemies and one or two people being teleported in without a third and while in containment bubbles. Plus they have now left it like that for the better part of a month.

I personally think that the change was good. The reason I say this is because before you would join a fire team and what normally would happen was you 2 shoot here you 2 there 1 here and I'll hold relic. So that's how a lot of people don't know what to do now In the raid coz they were never really allowed to learn or try to hold the relic or Ho in the portals. Who's to blame our selves the gamers that made those choices for other people. Mr and my friends recently did the raid with two randoms and we were all on the same boat no one really knew how to use the relic or the mechanics of the raid, long story short by the end of the raid we all learned how to properly use the relic. Coz now what happens is oh shyt 3 people that got teleported have no clue how to use relic or no one wants to grab it or even worse they don't know they have to shoot the oracles and everyone keeps whiping. So I'd say we can't blame bungie for that change and actually making the raid more of a challenge now. Blame all the other controlling players that don't want to let people learn coz if that's the case then those people should just play with either their friends or with other people just like them that don't want to explain to the team they're playing with.

Although I understand bungies idea of getting more people to use the relic I feel it takes away from team strategy. Example on hard it's really annoying when the only 30 gets taken and then the next round it's a 29 and they get wiped out fast.

Just make sure you have at least 4 who know how to use the relic. It's important but I have to say the relic holder is a boring job once you take down the hobos or the minotaur. On top of people yelling "cleanse me cleanse me" calm down the crap has to charge (and a tip for new users if you have it don't hold down the cleanse). Random hasn't really affected me with friends or randoms (w/ or w/o raid experience) and makes it a little more interesting.

It makes the vault more of a challenge, but it should probably just be in hard mode

I think people who haven't used the relic more than once don't like to because they simply haven't learned how to. After three or four times of using it, I went from hating it to loving it. I rather be the relic holder now instead of relying on someone else. But if someone wants to try I have no problem with wiping a few times until they can grasp it

It was nice move..now u have one choice only to complete the raid which is u must learn how to do it..instead of relying on your team

Yes and no. The only problem I have with it is that it makes it difficult for first time players to learn. If they made it so it doesn't happen in normal mode, so you can teach other players easier, it would be better. I say keep it for hard mode, but normal mode is for learning:)