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Destiny

Discuss all things Destiny.
Edited by PsykoticDrummer: 9/29/2014 7:41:30 AM
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The current state of the industry -or- why DLC is ruining our games

EDIT: Some are unclear on exactly what I mean. DLC is fine when you're adding to the game. Even if you plan for it before even releasing the game. New content is just new content. DLC is not fine when you intentionally remove something that was already there in the first place and sell later as an "addition," even though it was already part of the core experience. That's not new content. That's intentionally limiting the player experience to get more money. Also, tl;dr at the bottom [u][b]What DLC was, and no longer is, but SHOULD be:[/b][/u] NEW Content. An Afterthought. Something that the developers came up with after finishing the core game, to be released as downloadable content to ENHANCE the player experience. [u][b]What DLC is now, but once wasn't, and should NOT be:[/b][/u] Existing content that is removed, locked, or otherwise restricted from player access. pre-existing content part of the core game that is cut and repackaged for later sale. Something that the developers (or more likely in this case, the publisher, Activision) decided to remove from the finished product and resell to the consumer to COMPLETE the player experience. I remember a time where not every game had extra content, and the ones that did were neat, fresh new ideas (see: Bioshock Infinite burial at sea DLC). This is no longer the case. We no longer see fresh ideas that come as afterthoughts, additions to already significant and fulfilling games. We no longer see games released, feeling finished, feeling truly like the ART that video games are. No. Now, we see money. All we see is money. We're nothing but dollar signs to publishers. What we see in video games now are core, unpolished, naked, stripped versions of games that are ~fun~ but aren't fulfilling or persistent. We see these games released behind a veil of hype. We see that the content which felt like should have already existed is released later. Oh, but we have to pay for them. We have to pay more for a finished product than we did before. Why is it that we, gamers, have become so complacent, so easy to take money from, so........ dull? We're satisfied with unfinished products. The hype train carries us on its back. We tell ourselves that the game "just needs time" or the people who criticize it "should play something else" or "don't understand." The problem is, we do understand. We understand what video games once were to us: fulfilling adventures. What Destiny turned out to be, and many other games like it, is a small walk in the park, with pretty things to look at, and a bunch of extensions, but all of these extensions have been closed off. Video games should be like hiking a mountain, seeing beautiful things, feeling fulfilled, as if you've been on a, shall we say, a Great Journey. And then, after you've finished hiking the mountain, satisfied with your journey, you come down, only to realize that there is a beautiful forest which you had not seen before on your way home. You walk through the forest, amazed at how different it was compared to the mountain, but still a part of the geography, still a part of the journey. It was new, unprecedented. You were already satisfied, but this simply put the cherry on top. What happened to this industry? Where did the love go that went in to designing video games? Even with the best of intentions, developers still cannot overcome the leash that publishers put on them. Bungie signed a 10 year contract with Activision. That means, to Activision, that's 10 years of basically guaranteed revenue for their wallets from us. They don't give a damn about how good the game really is, that's the developer's job, right? Oh but they have to work around the leash we throw on them. They can't release all this content at once or we'll have nothing to sell later. This isn't how it used to be. I remember games like the Legend of Zelda. There was no DLC in that day, but the game felt finished by itself. It was a wonderful, exciting adventure. Then we had the first Halo, truly a marvel of the FPS genre. Fun action, beautiful graphics, and a heck of a story to boot. Another game, Oblivion. One of the best RPG's I've played. Fantastic storytelling and questing, with fun combat and mechanics as well. Further along the timeline, we have games like Mass Effect, one of my favorite scifi pieces. It undersells the game to call it a Space Opera. It's so massive that even half the game felt satisfying. Moving further along, however, and Call of Duty turns in to a cash cow. Why do so many people dislike it, yet so many people adore it? The gameplay struck a note with gamers. It was incredibly fun, especially for PvP mechanics. The Publisher then built an entire empire around just the gameplay. You have games now, like Destiny. Destiny tries to remind us of the huge adventure that videogames can be, but falls short because it can't escape the leash that business owners hold on it. Why release all of the content when we can release some of it and then sell the rest later? The consumers get their finished game and we get more money. That's the way the game is played now. My fellow gamers, I am appalled at our stagnation, our complacency, our acceptance of the cheap, money grabbing schemes going on in this industry. We're supposed to be one of the most revolutionary, innovative industries, and yet we can't even have the guts to tell developers or publishers what they did wrong. We have no desire to fix anything. If all it takes is a quick buck, sure, you'll buy whatever they sell you. Please, my fellow gamers. Disembark the hype train. Remove the veil. Think for awhile about what it is you think video games should be. Should they be a quick walk in the park with pretty sights and some areas that you have to pay for? Or should they be mountains of glorious magnitude, with satisfying adventures and the surprise of a beautiful forest at the end of your journey? You decide. I know where my heart lies. I won't sit by while games are reduced further and further from their beautiful, natural state into simple vehicles to transport money from our wallets to theirs. I'll scream and cry and write long essays about it until something changes. This is not the way it's supposed to be. Let's change the way games are made. Thanks for reading. I cherish your feedback, whether you agree, disagree, or simply don't care. EDIT: To add some clarification and so you see where I'm coming from: I fought for this game. I fought tooth and nail, telling the naysayers that it was all "part of the plan" and the full game, after the beta, would be much, much more. I fought for the idea that Destiny would live up to what they said it would be. I was disappointed. No. I was heartbroken. I was a fanboy. I was one of those fanboys many of you criticized for being blind. I thought you all didn't see it the way I did. I thought I was going to prove you wrong. In the end, you proved me wrong. I'm not a fanboy anymore. I'm a disheartened, aspiring game developer whose faith in the industry was shaken a bit. tl;dr: cutting out core content and selling it later is not how DLC should be and is a practice that is killing the essence of video games. DLC should be content that adds to the game, not content that completes the game. Plus some emotions and a bit of passion and stuff because I care too much about these things or something.

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  • You spent alot of time on this post and although it was well thought out.. I'm affraid the people reading this is your average gamer that is at work and can not play Destiny at the hour they are posting a reply.....such as myself. If I were at home I would no doubt be playing Destiny or Sleeping due to exhaustion / fatigue. You know damn well you and everyone on here are rubbing there greedy little hands like a FLY about to eat some food. Just waiting for the DLC to hit the market place / online store. Oh yeah you will be downloading that Shit and your going to play it on day 1 and you will be back on here when your at work telling us if it was worth it or not. Forums are for being away from the game. If you had access to your game you wouldn't be on the forums. :) Cheers , see you in the DLC

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    • I fully agree, pre determined dlc just means its stuff that should be in the original release. Unfortunately people are sheep and just do what the market tells them.

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    • You have violated the code of conduct, prepare to face ninja justice

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      • If there is no new planets and enemys i will not buy any DLC for Destiny! Placing only new waypoints and stuff in already existing surroundings takes realy not much time to create and should not cost money! With so less afford to create new strikes and stuff there should be much more content in the main game. I mean they dont have to build any new level or map for any strike like in other games. Its all already there! Just placing some old enemys and waypoints and the strike is finish. They try to get much money for a work of 1 or 2 days. Thats a no go for me! Give us 1 planet with the same size as the old ones and minimun 1 new raid, 5 story missions and 3 new strikes. Thats i whould pay 15 bucks for!

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      • Gonna go into a few things here. First off, you mention Zelda as a "complete" game. You also mention Halo as being a "complete" game. How long did it take you to beat those games? A couple hours at best? And yet you felt satisfied after playing them. Halo might have given you a bit more gameplay if you did some split screen pvp, but the actual game wasn't all that long at all. And yet it is still famed as such an amazingly brilliant breakthrough in gaming. How many hours have you put into Destiny though? Looking at your characters its over 3 days worth of play time. 75 hours and the games been out what 3 weeks? Thats averaging over 3 hours every single day. And still, all of that content somehow wasn't worth your $60? You are already at the point where you are paying less than $1/hour for Destiny. Why do you still think the game is incomplete? Is the storyline amazing? No, but it is a complete storyline as much as most games are anyway. Lets compare Destiny with Halo. You start the game off and are awakened by an ai (cortana/ghost). You run into some aliens that want to kill you (covenant/fallen) . You end up fighting those aliens until you find out about a 2nd alien threat even worse than the 1st (flood/vex). You do some more fighting with the 2nd aliens, sometimes with the 1st aliens added on, before finally blowing them up at the end (halo explosion/brain thing explosion). Notice this, albeit very short and simplified, synopsis is the exact same story for both Halo and Destiny. Why is the one so highly regarded for being so amazing and yet the other is condemned for being half a game? Halo didn't have that much backstory when it first came out. You learned all the other neat facts about the storyline in halo 2+ and all the books and everything else that came out for it. Destiny at least started out with a lot of the extra story info in the grimoire cards (which if you actually take the time to look at, add a whole lot of story, even if I don't like how they make you go through the site/app to view it instead of in game) Now, onto the DLC portion. Back when you were playing Halo, or Zelda, or whatever "good, complete" game you played back in the day. Did you ever think "Man, I wish there was more to this game so I could keep playing"? Whether it be more playable characters, more missions, more maps, whatever. I know I woulda loved another dungeon in Zelda, or a couple more missions in Halo. Well when the developers were working on those games, they probably HAD another dungeon or mission (or at least some good ideas and sketches for one) but they reached a point in the development when they just had to say "sorry, this item just isn't good enough to keep spending our resources on it, we gotta cut it" and that dungeon/mission/map is scrapped and nobody ever gets to see it. Instead, they can look at that and say "You know, this item just isn't good enough or won't be ready in time for launch. But we really do like the idea of it, so lets pull back on the resources of it, but still work on it and we can release it as a DLC." They worked on it the entire development cycle of the game, and it could have even made it onto the disc in time for launch, but its still DLC because it is something would have just been completely scrapped if DLC wasn't available. It took them extra time and resources to keep working on it, because they knew they could charge a bit extra to pay for it. Lets look at a few games to see how it works: CoD:*insert number here* - They make maybe a dozen different multiplayer maps because thats what they have in their budget. They know its mostly sold as a multiplayer game, so they spend a little chunk on the single player, then spend a big chunk on testing and balancing and everything else, and then they spend whats left making however many different maps they can. The game is perfectly complete as it is (whether you enjoy the series or not, its complete) but they know people will get bored of the maps eventually so they start working on new maps, long before the game is even out yet. Maybe even finished before its out yet, knowing they'll release it a few months after to give the players a nice change. Does that make those maps "not DLC" because they worked on it beforehand? Not at all, it makes them smart and it *should* satisfy their customer base more because they are trying to think ahead to satisfy them, rather than make them wait the whole year til the new one comes out. Injustice - This game had quite a few characters as DLC. All of which (as far as I know, I didn't play much of it) were built, tested, and ready at launch of the game. The DLC was even available right from the get go. Does that mean they are terrible money cashing pigs? No. They knew they only had the budget for X amount of characters, but they also knew some people would LOVE to see their less popular hero/villain added to the game too. So they compromised and still worked on a bunch more characters, but the diehard players that really wanted them had to pay for them. tl;dr 1. You, and lots of others like you, have spent WAY too much time on this game to complain about how short the game is or that it is "half a game" or whatever other nonsense you are criticizing. 2. DLC takes resources to create. If DLC wasn't a thing, those things just wouldn't ever get developed to begin with, they woulda been scrapped at some point in development because the budget just didn't allow for it. The reason developers continue to work on them is because they want to please the player base by giving them even more content, and they hope that they might recoup their expenses by selling enough DLC items to pay for that resource cost to make that extra content. If its a large enough game, with reputation or hype, they can work on that DLC long before the game comes out, because its almost guaranteed that enough people will buy them. Ex: CoD doesn't really have to worry about not enough people buying their new map pack for their new installment, so they can easily go ahead and work on future DLC long before the game is even out.

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        • Tell me 1 good reason why publishers (especially Activision) would not want to go this route (cutting content and selling it part by part) after the HUGE success that COD and its map packs are having since all those years, breaking sales record over sales record. They can do it, people buy it, they make more money, no reason not to do that. COD yearly buyers and map pack buyers are all to blame for the industry going this way, and there won't be any turnaround of the situation anytime soon. Period.

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          • Long Post. All I am gonna say is learn from the Persona series Devs. Done.

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          • Need a Clan? Serious or Casual. Join "Skill Capped" A newer clan with a cool group of people who complete strikes, pvp, help friends and just about everything else. We plan on getting a core raid team together for VOG within the next week or so we're just looking for the last few dedicated players who want to get in there and take care of business. If you think you meet this description or just want a laid back clan to join for when you need help or just want others to enjoy the gameplay with then search no longer! Mainly on the xbox360 but all others are welcome. You can check us out at - http://www.bungie.net/en/Clan/Detail/374769 Happy Hunting!

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          • I agree with you, but I think at this point, the dlc's are bungie's way of reincorporating the content cut by activision in an attempt to keep the game what they wanted. They didn't cut it for the sake of cutting it and then charging for it. activision cut it, now it's the only way for Bungie to add that cut content back into the game

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            • DLC should be extra content not cut content from the game to make extra money like destiny which is why the DLC is on the disc its just locked thats just pathetic

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            • Wow, you like to type. I bet no one read the whole thing. Remember before these new consoles released, all of that speculation that games might cost $70, $80 or even $90 for the disc? It's because creating games has become unbelievably expensive. The fact of the matter is that these consoles should cost more than $400 and the games should cost more than $60 but as an act of good faith. Microsoft and Sony promised the new games would stay at $60 or lower. The reason all of these games are coming out on both next gen and last gen is because they more than likely couldn't recoup costs on next gen alone. Season Passes are how game publishers are getting around that $60 guarantee. Technically, Destiny will cost you $90 or Watch Dogs was $80. Ever hear of inflation? The prices of everything have gone up over the past 10 years except video games, they are still $60 for the base game and Season Passes are sold if you would like the "whole game" that should have just been originally sold at $90.

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              • Someone give this man a medal.

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              • DLC - the new online pass.

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              • Honestly I expect to see a lot more on disk dlc. Here is why. With pretty much every new generation of console there was an increase in game prices. Usually $10 more than the previous gen. The problem is that prices for ps4 and xbone are the same as 360 and ps3. In real dollar terms that means ps4 and xbone games are actually cheaper than when the 360 and ps3 were originally released (inflation factored in). On top of that the games are now bigger and require more development dollars. So how can publishers increase the price of the game without changing the initial price, on disc dlc. I wish they would just let you pay more and get the full game instead of pretending that the devs are working on the dlc by delaying the release a couple of months. Or just charge 70 bucks and give us whole games.

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              • Dlc is okay if the game has a beginning middle end. Destiny ended in the middle wether you like it or not.

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              • Amen, I am so disheartened by the actions taken by bungie/Activision to limit the amount of content available at "release". The main reason I was so excited about destiny is that I figured bungie was not the company that would ever stoop to such a low business model, now I have lost faith in their business.

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              • That was........ beautiful. Enjoyed reading your post. You hit the nail on the head

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              • DLC should be extra content not cut content made into DLC For money and there fanboy excuse is that this trash game is a MMO even when the devs said its not

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              • I agree with this. One of the issues is that gaming is no longer a small niche of people who play and enjoy the artistic value of games. Now it is a massive global market with millions of consumers worldwide. As the masses get involved they care less about artistic value and the integrity of the developer/publisher.

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              • ITT: I am very hurt that DLC content is pretty planned before release for years now. Bungie WAI U R MODERN DEV? Seriously, this has been going for years. Some you guys act like this was an incredible revelation or something. They are announced 2 DLC packs. That means they were probably way into the design process for both. Welcome to modern gaming.

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              • I'm just gonna take a guess that the people complaining about the game and how much they hate bungie are probably still playing it.. save your tears for someone who cares.

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                • It really shouldn't matter if they made the content pre-release and decided to cut it out to sell it to us later as DLC. They put the time into it and should get however much money they feel their time is worth. Gamers have become so demanding of developers in the last few years and game prices haven't budged in a VERY long time. Inflation has gone up and game prices have remained steady which is mind boggling from a purely economic standpoint. Name one item that has remained the same price over the last decade and you MIGHT have an argument. Not to mention all the additional work that goes into making these games multiplatform. Would you have been willing to pay $100 upfront for the "complete" game? I very much so doubt it specially after a huge game like Skyrim couldn't get more than $60. Fact remains they spent time and resources, which cost money, on a product and they get to determine how much money in return they want to get for it and you get to decide if it is worth your money to purchase. You want this type of practice to stop then you need to be willing to pay a higher purchase price for your games otherwise they are relegated to making up their costs with DLC, no matter when they make it. DLC is a cheap way for a company to earn back some of the cost associated with continued support because the framework is there all they have to do is add spawns and quest objectives.

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                • Edited by sergeantawesome: 9/29/2014 2:37:23 PM
                  How do we know that it was completed game content that was cut before the game released? Unverifiable statements.

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                  • To be fair, when we are demanding game devs to make bigger better games year after year but aren't willing to pay more for them at store level ya kinda force them to use cheap money tactics to make us pay more then those 60$.

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                    • ITT: People thinking discs are endless little voids of storage with no limit on what you can fit on them.

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                    • If you disagree, speak with your dollars. Don't buy DLC. I myself will be buying the DLC because I believe in supporting BUNGiE more than I dislike the practices. I want to see BUNGiE succeed, even if it means I have to watch Activision succeed as well.

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