Those threads started off well, but unfortunately went to hell. This thread could still do that. But it hasn't yet. Shai's threads were only locked after the discussion ended and the flaming started, IIRC. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Jeff McRae So how come all of the threads that Shai made about how the community is going downhill and he blames YOU guys (the Bungie staff), it gets locked almost right away? That's not really fair is it?[/quote]

Why should it be locked? It is on topic, not a flame, sparking conversation. In every way, it is a good forum post. Just because you and your group happen to be made not to look so hot, doesn't make it something to be locked. I may not agree with his points in some ways, but that doesn't make it something to stop. That's not how things work here. That might be why the OP things you'd be a crappy moderator, Jay. :) [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] JAY132 Seriously, I've resisted defending my group, and myself here because I find it so laughable (like how the guy who wrote wouldn't post it for one!), but may I ask why this isn't yet locked? Or even edited in places (namely the part mentioning my group)? [/quote]

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] snowmanaxt7 First – Bungie.net needs its community guy. Sketch seems a perfectly nice chap so it’d be a shame to see him go, but a doer and not a deserter is required. If he can fulfil that role again, then excellent. If not, then an alternative must be sought. Thus, a more intimate relationship can be established between the community and Bungie. The other staff members who can help, should, since their responsibility is foremost to Bungie.net and not HBO. I’m not suggesting at all that the community should be restricted just to Bungie.net, but the Bnet community needs to be the chief priority of those contracted to work for it. [/quote] Bungie needs someone dedicated to online community management, as I said before. But again, you are trying to dismiss the importance of sites like HBO, and that simply is an incorrect course of action and won't be happening. [quote]Secondly, the exclusive social clubs must be dispersed and the snobbery forced out of the members on punishment of a banning. They must realise that all but the worst spammers and the greatest snobs have a right to participate as long as they follow the rules, and it is the moderators’ job, not theirs, to ensure that the people do just that. Many people on Bungie.net seek attention and nothing more, so permitting them it is not a good encouragement to the better spirit of the community. Some of the girls, sadly, get attention just because of their sex, and more sadly, some of them even enjoy it to no end (though thankfully most do not). Some of the site staff are guilty of such attention-doling, also, and it seems not that the humpdays and the intimate friendships between staff and girls have any other root than gender.[/quote] So... like I've always said - ignore the morons, report them to mods. How is this any different than what we've ALWAYS said. And how many times do people ignore us? This doesn't count as a solution - nothing changes when you just say it. You've simply given yet another writeup of a known issue, yet you have still not provided anything in the way of a solution. [quote]Thirdly, the ninja selection has gone out of control.[/quote] What the hell are you talking about? What ninja selection? We hardly ever get new ninjas, and of those, only ONE has ever left under somewhat bad circumstances. I think your letting some personal feelings get in the way here. If you have a problem with a moderator, how come you've never messaged me about it? If it isn't important enough for you to send me a message about it, then why should I be expected to care about it? [quote]Fourthly, the community needs to do things as one. Chapters can play in their exclusive little groups, but the Flood should be a forum for everyone to talk off-topic, not stupidly, and the Septagon should be for those from all “walks of life” to congregate and discuss matters at hand. A few gaming events here and there can’t hurt, after all. Division amongst people is always inevitable, but at current there is no opportunity for anything to be different. Again, that is why chapters exist, and the fact that so few chapters are successful is reflection that people do not need them, as their little groups grow in public forums, slowly infected public property and morphing it to private.[/quote] Uh... I'm not really sure what you're talking about here. It seems you want everyone to be of one mind (that agrees with you)... but since we're not all of one mind, that doesn't work. Idealism is fine and all, but expecting it in a community of this size exhibits that you don't really understand the problems at hand. [quote]I am being hugely idealistic here, and apologies are due to those whom I have misled into thinking that a perfect community is a realistic prospect. Nevertheless, there needs to be more incentive for the interested users to stick around than the prospect of modship (and with so many moderators being chosen seemingly at random, this lure is a very large one), and also for the lovers of the games.[/quote] That's not what you said earlier. And as I've already said, the fundamental problem is that there is no positive reinforcement (and no, being a mod is not positive reinforcement). [quote]Perhaps a better fanbase would actually encourage more Bungie staff members to log on.[/quote] Most Bungie staff are not permitted to speak to the fans as they have not been appropriately trained to not say something that would have bad consequences. Those that do speak out tend to do so elsewhere, because it easier to hide in plain sight, so to speak. This is a roundabout way of saying that you're probably stuck with just me and Frankie. [quote]Everyone is so scared of authority and damaging their chances of becoming ninjas these days that they are afraid to speak their mind. Take it from somebody who has devoted countless hours to trying to improve things both publicly and privately, and who has seen many great members fade away to be forgotten. Ultimately, I am wasting my words. Next thing you know, JAY132 and Jeff McCrae will be sitting there proudly with the titles of “Forum Ninja” under their usernames. It saddens me that I would no longer be surprised to see this happen. – A most disgruntled former Bungie.net user [/quote] Maybe you are afraid to speak your mind, but in my experience that is not a common problem here. You'll find that I, at least, hardly ever use my Ignore PMs button - even for those that send me death threats.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] snowmanaxt7 Fast forward half a year, and now there are four of them free to do as they please, with powers they intend not for the bettering of the community but for their own egotistical purposes. Job well done? Well, they must be good, if Bungie picked them. But Bungie didn’t, since nobody from Bungie, save Frankie and KPaul whose main interests lie in HBO and not the site they’re contracted to work for, really frequents the community. Achronos does his bit in the Septagon and occasionally travels further afield to answer in-depth or plain arrogant queries, but that’s not involving in the community on the whole. Again, the lack of a community guy is salient.[/quote] KPaul's contract is over, he doesn't work for Bungie anymore. And he originally was active a lot in that community. And I don't really care if you don't like that they post in HBO - there are other communities around Bungie games other than the one here, and they are just as deserving as you guys. And, by the way, I read and watch way more of this site than you give me credit for - just because I don't respond doesn't mean that I'm not listening. There is simply too much to respond to. It is easy to say nothing is happening when you don't have an inside track on everything. We give a lot of inside track compared to most developers, and I think you'll find that I am going to be somewhat dismissive of this particular claim (that we aren't participating here). Even Brian does his best to watch the goings on around here, despite the high amount of noise around here. I think the rest of the community team does a pretty good job in picking up the slack. [quote]Nosferatu_Soldie is another name of which I can make an example, though not that I really wish to since I, at least when he used to visit Bungie.net, liked him a great deal. Here was a promising new member who apparently had quite the social objectives, which isn’t a bad thing considering he didn’t act like an arse-kissing jerk publicly nor, from what I’d seen, privately. Yet in very little time at all he was promoted to the status of ninja, and here certain TFM members, ironically in that their members became moderators in practically the same manner, were outraged. The explanation for his upgrading was, apparently, that he’d played World of Warcraft with Bungie and had got to know them quite well.[/quote] That's not the whole story. He's been around a lot longer than that. Give us a little credit, here. And besides... what exactly is your complaint about him other than your ill-informed story of how he became a moderator? [quote]He, like Jim after his acquisition of powers, faded away from Bungie.net and ceased to be quite the superb members they once were. Granted, both had plenty of personal excuse, but even when they returned more permanently the activity levels didn’t increase. Recently, too, Nosferatu became a master moderator, though his contributions to Bungie.net during the period before that were negligible. Proof of the social structure of moderator selection, and also the hypocrisy when the claim is made that moderators are picked based on contributions. That said, it’d still be excellent if he were on more often, as with so many good members of the community jumping ship, every remaining one really counts.[/quote] Now, you're just out in left field. Moderators are picked on community involvement. However, that isn't the only criteria, and we're not only talking about THIS community. Furthermore, as I'm sure dmbfan and impurity will tell you - moderating requires that you watch a little bit what you say, because you are viewed as an "official" mouthpiece, even when you're not. I'm sure the other mods can expand on this a bit. The only one who probably didn't really alter much of what he said or did was Shishka - but he didn't make any friends because he didn't take any crap from you. Of course, that prevented a lot of you from incurrring my far worse wrath... [quote]The VII Toast affair springs to mind. He seemed a nice enough fellow – until he was elected a moderator, at which point reality surfaced and he was revealed for the savage power freak he truly is. The problem is, the community and its pleas for action against his transgressions were ignored, and it took until the senior ninjas started to take notice for him to be brought to justice. This process took well over a year, and he had already wrought considerably havoc upon the site, deleting posts, thoroughly deceiving users and banning others for no reason. During his reign, he was undoubtedly responsible for the selection of yet another poor ninja choice, and perhaps more than one. More damage done to the community. If the worst, most blatant abuser takes about a year and a half to be dealt with, it is distressing to consider that he was not the only one to have taken his privileges lightly.[/quote] Yeah, that's not how it happened. Toast started out as a good moderator, got a few warnings, and then I asked him to make a choice, and he chose not to be a moderator anymore. And don't you DARE try to infer quality of subsequent moderators on his activities - that is not a logical progression. Furthemore - it should be known that every single moderator gets pretty much constant claims of biased or unfair treatment. Well, except for Jeremiah and myself. We just get death threats. But anyway, all I will say about that is you are missing a huge part of the story about that, and assuming that it was ignored or overlooked is not accurate. [quote]I think it is fair testament to the issues with moderating now that impurity quit his post as ninja after a short while indeed. Here was a guy who had countless discussions about the betterment of the community in olden times, who always sees the best in people and who at the same time opposes snobbery. It was a good day for all those concerned with the community’s progression and improvement when he was selected, but I think he began to realise that it was no longer possible to use his powers to any true end, and that modship had become nothing but a surface appearance. Most were content to carry on, knowing this, but he figured that he could help out more as a regular member than as an arse-kissed puppet. Dmbfan was the same, with good intentions, and quit knowing that ultimately his powers would go to waste and his better judgment wouldn’t have any effect. Moderating is a volunteer job at its core, which is fair enough, but it’s supposed to be an opening for the very best of members to serve the community in more than one way.[/quote] Okay, this section is complete and utter bull-blam!-. I'm sorry, but they quit because moderating is hard, and you have to be careful what you say and how you say it. It is hard to enjoy the forums in the same way, and those two just decided that they preferred to just have fun as part of the regular community. Don't make stupid assertions - you're becoming almost as bad as those idiot forum cops who hold moderation up on a pedestal like it is some power trip. It is hard work, and no matter what you do, someone always has something bad to say about you. This relates to the Toast thing too - one thing I always promise the mods is that I have their back to deal with those kinds of things. And quite frankly, most of the things alleged about Toast were very minor our just made up. Only toward the end when he lowered himself to the level of those making crap up about him did things get out of hand. And again I say this kind of made up stuff about "what moderating is" is part of the problem. [quote]With living proof of how more or less anybody who follows the formulae can become a moderator... their personality masks are liable to change on a whim, since it is not really their own character posting, but rather a stereotype with a specific purpose.[/quote] Oh my god, I hope your next is post is better than this one. This is because people can and do make hundreds of spam and troll accounts because they can - there is very little to stop this kind of thing. People routinely trade passports around and let others use their accounts, and such. The moderators know about lots of this, but they can't do much because they don't have the tools to deal with it. It is also out of their job responsibility. Seriously, you went off the deep end with this part. You make lots of incorrect assumptions about moderators and how things work, and use them to support conclusions that aren't even entirely correct based on the assumptions... I'm not trying to pretend everything is all rosy, but you guys are STILL focusing on the wrong thing. Hint: the moderators have very little to do with it... it has to do with the fact that bungie.net does very little to truely encourage positive participation... we have lots of negative reinforcement, but no postive reinforcement.