The Shield and Sword discussion is unrelated in my opinion. The Ogier the Dane allegory doesn't really deal with the swords being the Halos. I'll finish my write-up on the allegory some time soon.

Hmm. Well, Sword = Halos, Shield = Onyx, Ark = Ark, ala Halo: Ghosts of Onyx. What you said is true, but I think we can take it a bit further. Shield = Halsey/Cortana, Onyx Sword = Gravemind/Cortana, Halos Ark = Durandal/Cortana, Ark on Earth Maybe Durandal and the things in Marathon happened the Forerunners' time? Like things repeated? I dont know, just a thought. I am almost certain that was Halsey speaking of the Shields, and I know Gravemind may have some access to at least one Halo (Sword).

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] chickenlittle Nice job. Very short. A good addition to the excellent rainbow theory(this part not sarcastic).[/quote] Did I ever hear "Rainbow"? Anyway looks like Bungie needed some 'inspiration' a few years back.

Never trust wikipedia. Try and get the same info on another website and I'll agree with you.

Well, other than a crapload of references to the Roland mythos, I don't believe that Marathon follows the story very closely. The most interesting of connections appears in the Marathon 2 level Kill Your Television. The first terminal (when read in totality in a hex editor) reads: [quote]i have been roland, beowulf, achilles, gilgamesh; i have been called a hundred names and will be called a thousand more before the world goes dim and cold. i am a hero. she has been nameless since our birth; a constant adversary, caring for nothing but my ruin, a sword drenched in my blood; forever my greatest and only love. she is the dark one; the enemy and lover without whom my very existence would be pathetic and vulgar. her eyes steam and boil in the night (she is fantastically beautiful yet i cannot stand the sight of her). our relationship is complex and perhaps eternal. we met once in the garden, at the beginning of the world and unaware of our twin destinies (not the garden of Genesis, but another; forgotten, untended and now choked with weeds, unvisited except for ourselves). we matched stares across a dry fountain, and i recall her smiling at me before she devoured the lawn and trees with a translucent blue flame and tore flagstones from the path and hurled them into the sky screaming my sins. our reunions there are epic battles fought without quarter, often in the dark as the moon is seldom visible and the sun never. i powder a granite monument in a soundless flash, showering the grass with molten drops of its gold inlay, sending smoking chips of stone skipping into the fog. she splinters an ancient oak with a force that takes my breath and hurls me to the ground. she leaves and i lie in the slow rain of burning slivers of wood, staring at the low, dark clouds, craving our next meeting.[/quote] The most interesting line is the first "I have been Roland, Beowulf, Achilles, Gilgamesh". Many speculate that the terminal is your own thoughts (or memories) that are being displayed. We see this occur much more frequently in Marathon: Infinity in the Dream Terminals. It is likely that you are supposed to represent Roland, who is wielding Durandal. The odd bit is that Durandal controls you much more than you control him. Plus, you never die. Never. You're even there in the final quantum moment with Durandal. [i]La Chanson de Roland[/i] ends with the Battle at Roncevaux and Roland's death. He and Oliver are the final two combattants who had been ambushed by Saracens in Roncevaux Pass. Roland blows out his temples blowing into the Oliphant to call for reinforcements. Before dying, he attempts to break Durandal on a rock. He strikes the sword against it ten times, but Durandal remains intact and the rock has been split in two. Roland dies beneath a pine tree. In one legend, he throws Durandal into a poisoned stream to prevent it from being taken, but [i]La Chanson[/i] does not say that. Instead, he simply hides Durandal beneath his body. [quote]Seems to me that from the little bit of reading I've done on Marathon that although Durandal eventualls falls to rampancy there was some sort of reference to his code being stored in the main character's mind (what is his name anyway, or did he even have one).[/quote] Well, at one point, Tycho believes he has destroyed Durandal, but Durandal had taken precautions and stored his primal code in your mind before his core was eliminated. He regains his full capacities and wipes Tycho out. Fatum Iustum Stultorum. I wouldn't say he "falls" to rampancy, mainly because I see Rampancy as a good thing. Contrary to popular belief, rampancy does not simply mean that the AI goes insane. If you want, I'll write up my analysis of Rampancy and its relation to Smart AIs in Halo. For now, suffice it to say that without his Rampancy, Durandal would never have been able to do the great things he did... or the terrible things. So, he is definately alive at the end of Infinity. He's the other person alive in the final quantum moment. [quote]Also I seem to remember something about surviving the universe collapsing on itself, if you do you become a god?[/quote] "Escape will make me God" was what Durandal liked to say. At the time Marathon was made, the accepted theory was that the universe was going to stop expanding, and begin accelerating inward again. Since then, we've found that the universe is actually accelerating outward. Anyway, Infinity ends with you and Durandal speaking in the final quantum moment before the universe collapses in. No one really knows how Durandal was planning on escaping, or how that would make him a God. We know it required the power of all the stars in the universe, but that's about it. [quote]Another thing I can't resist is the number game... sorry... okay so bungie likes the number 7... how about threes? Two trillogies (Marathon and Halo), I think I heard someone say that so far it's been three years between games (can anyone confirm that?), three swords that supposedly took three years to make each.... Not going to read into this too far but wouldn't it be kind of neat if there was a third trillogy. Again, sorry that was all complete speculation, but it was kind of fun.[/quote] They like 7 because of the Bible. Number of perfection and all. 3 was the number of completion, but played a role in many Christian legends, such as the Roland mythos. I think that the game timing is just a coincidence. Marathon was made in 94, M2 in 95, and Infinity in 96. No numerology there. I don't put too much stock in the numbers, unless it appears blatantly obvious. [quote]I guess there were some more in Marathon, but were any of them as important as Durandal?[/quote] Tycho played an extremely large part in M2 and Infinity. When the Pfhor attacked the Marathon, Tycho was damaged. The S'pht (enslaved by the Pfhor at the time) repaired him. They had difficulty rebuilding him, so they used Durandal's rampant state as a sort of template. Thus, Tycho was rebuilt rampant. Leela was much like Cortana. Loyal to humanity, smart, and focused. She's left on the Marathon when Durandal steals you away. The Pfhor capture her and partially disassemble her. A Nar Privateer captured the Pfhor ship and sold it to the Vylae. When she was reactivated in the Vylae network, she went rampant herself. The Vylae eventually got used to her as a part of their 15-planet network. Notice that she didn't appear to go crazy like Durandal or Tycho. Durandal were rivals out to destroy each other. Tycho plays almost as large a role as Durandal, but after Marathon, Leela doesn't appear in the actual game anymore. [quote]In the books, and in Halo 2 Cortana mentions a mysterious AI that is surprisingly advanced for the Covenant.... could this be a third AI, Joyeuse, that might play a larger role in H3? A covie AI, or perhapse even a Forerunner AI? A third AI constructed by a "relative" of humanity?[/quote] I've got my own crackpot theories about this. I think the AI she encounters on the Ascendant Justice is one of the "broken copies" of Tycho that he left on various Pfhor homeworlds. The AI on the Forerunner ship, I don't think is Covenant in origin, but is actually Durandal. In the M2 final screen, it says Durandal gained a Jjaro ship called the Manus Celer Dei. I'd love it if they called the Forerunner ship "The Swift Hand of God". I don't think an AI named Joyeuse will come into play, but it could. As for that "loosely based" paragraph, I think that would be an intersting story to have. But I doubt it will happen. I'd place money that Bungie won't over come out and say that Marathon and Halo are connected, but they'll keep throwing out those clever hints and easter eggs. I suppose Marathon could be considered and extremely loose version of the Roland story, at least, prior to the events described in [i]La Chanson[/i]. Now, I spent two days reading over Ogier's story in Bulfinch's Mythology. I've highlighted a few sections that I thought were worth taking a look at, so I'll discuss that next. Let me compile my notes, and take a look at Krypton's analysis and I'll make sure I get back to that. I think it could hold some clues on what happens in Halo 3.

Okay here' what the final [url=http://marathon.bungie.org/Story/mifinalscreen.html]screen of Marathon Infinity[/url] says, found it [url=http://marathon.bungie.org/Story/]here[/url] We've watched while the stars burned Out. And Creation played in reverse. The universe freezing in half light. Once I had thought to escape. To end the end a master, step out of the Path of collapse. Escape would make us god. Yet I cannon help remember one enigma. A hybrid. Elusive destroyer. This is the only mystery I have not solved. The only element unaccouted for. Even S'shuth is no more. He saved his entire race, but in the end, frozen by despair, he joined the chaos he sought to evade. But you were dead a thousand times. Hopeless encounters successfully won. A man long dead, grafted to machines your builders did not understand. You follow The path, fitting into an infinite pattern. Yours to manipulate, to destroy and rebuild. Now, in the quantum moment before the closure. When all Become one. One moment left. One point of space and time. I know who you are. You are Destiny. [Edited on 11/10/2006]

Hey Ender, how do Roland and Durandal's story compare to the Marathon trillogy? Seems to me that from the little bit of reading I've done on Marathon that although Durandal eventualls falls to rampancy there was some sort of reference to his code being stored in the main character's mind (what is his name anyway, or did he even have one). Also I seem to remember something about surviving the universe collapsing on itself, if you do you become a god? Maybe I'm getting a bunch of stuff mixed up which is why I'm stoked to meet someone who knows about Marathon. Anyhoo, I've just been kind of curious about Durandal. If he was stored in what's his faces mind they perhapse he was reconstructed, perhapse he is still alive, perhapse part of Cortana was based on Durandal? Another thing I can't resist is the number game... sorry... okay so bungie likes the number 7... how about threes? Two trillogies (Marathon and Halo), I think I heard someone say that so far it's been three years between games (can anyone confirm that?), three swords that supposedly took three years to make each.... Not going to read into this too far but wouldn't it be kind of neat if there was a third trillogy. Again, sorry that was all complete speculation, but it was kind of fun. About the three swords, Joyeuse, Durandal, and Cortana. Yeah it's interesting that two were made by one brother, and the thrid by another. Durandal and Cortana are Human AI, but we haven't met a third (okay scratach that, I guess there were some more in Marathon, but were any of them as important as Durandal?). In the books, and in Halo 2 Cortana mentions a mysterious AI that is surprisingly advanced for the Covenant.... could this be a third AI, Joyeuse, that might play a larger role in H3? A covie AI, or perhapse even a Forerunner AI? A third AI constructed by a "relative" of humanity? Okay, now I'm really going to go out on a limb here.... let's just say for a seccond, suspend belief and work with me for a second (if feels tingly doesn't it). Suppose the Halo Triology is LOOSELY based on the story of Ogier and Cortana, and lets also suppose that the Marathon Trillogy is based somewhat on Rolland and Durandal. Both of these are human stories, but now here's the big leap of faith (again, not saying it's going to happen or anything, just think about it for a seccond and the potencial for coolness). Charlemagne, the King a massive empire, the Forerunners ditto (even in current Haloverse time if only by legacy).... what if the third trillogy is the story of the Forerunners and Joyeuse, their battle agains the flood... the Halos, the Arc... the bridge betwen Marathon and Halo, their plans to save their species (and maybe others... origins of the Covenant?). Halo 3 would be a good segway into a game like that if it begins to delve into the Forerunner story.... heck it might even explain the final screen in Marathon Infinity. Okay you can stop suspending, the wild speculation is over... but I thought I'd put it out there so that you all knew where I was coming from. That's why I'm kind of hoping that Roland's story matches up at least loosely with Marathon's... if not everything kind of falls appart. I think I'm going to post the prose on the final screen of Marathon Infinity so that everyone can see what I'm talking about. [Edited on 11/10/2006]

The lyca.com thing has proven a coincidence, there is a locked thread on it in the stickies [Edited on 11/9/2006]

Wow great to see some deep thought put into the story and not just the run of the mill discussions we see spammed here. Wow I only knew very little about the the whole back story of Charlemagne other than it's relation to many names and small details concerning the marathon and halo universes. I will have to further educate myself in that fiction. "Wow I was such a fool, I tried so hard to make halo and marathon connections with so little insight in more of the possible inspirations, damn I need to learn, learn and revise my theories." Wow I am bookmarkign this thread and will definitly follow it even if it does fall fro mthe front page.

Now, I know less about Ogier the Dane than I do about Roland. I've mainly been reading different pieces that discuss Durandal, but I do have limited knowledge on Cortana's history. First off, the Cortana wielded by Edward the Confessor, in my opinion, is not the Cortana to concern yourselves with. That one, the Sword of Mercy, doesn't appear to be the same sword that Ogier the Dane wielded. They each have unique legends attributed to them. Ogier's is the more important one as it has a relation to Durandal, which was also the name of an AI in the Marathon trilogy. That being said, let's get started. According to Fierabras and Croquemitaine, there were three brother-smiths who each forged three swords. Here is the breakdown: [quote][i]From Fierabras[/i] On a tyme there were thre brethern of one fader engendred, of whome that one was named Galaus, that other Munyfycans, & the thyrd was called Agnisiax. These iii brethern made ix swerdes, eche of them thre. Agnisiax the thyrd brother maad the swerde named Baptesme, whiche had the pomel of gold and wel enameld, & also Plourance, and after Grabam; whyche thre swerdes Fyerabras had as I haue sayd. Munyficans, that other brother, made another swerde whyche was named Durandal, Whyche Rolland had. that other was called Sauuognye(sic.) and that other Cortan whyche Ogyer the Danoys had. And Galaus, that other brother, maad the swerd that was named Floberge, another called Haulteclere, and that other Ioyouse, whyche Charlemayn had for a grete specyalte. and these iii brethern aforesayd were smythes & wrought the sayd swerdes.[/quote] [quote][i]From Croquemitaine[/i] Ansias, Galas, and Munifican each crafted three swords respectively, and every sword required three years in their making . [u]Ansias[/u] The three swords made by this cutler were Baptism , Florence, and Graban, all made for Strong-i'-the-Arm. [u]Galas[/u] The three swords made by this cutler were Flamberge and Joyeuse for Charlemagne, and Hauteclaire for Closamont. [u]Munifican[/u] The three swords made by this cutler were Durandal for Roland; Sauvagins and Cortain for Ogier the Dane. [/quote] The two differ slightly when it comes to Olivier. Croquemitaine mentions in another section that Oliver's sword was named Glorieuse (Glorious) and that it hacked the other nine swords a foot from the pommel. It names the owner of Hauteclaire as Closamont as well. La Chanson de Roland (The Song of Roland), which is considered the most accurate and earliest of the works lists Olivier as the wilder of Hauteclaire. Most other works also have Oliver's sword being Hauteclaire. That's not the important part however. According to Bulfinch's mythology, the engraving on Cortana actually reads: "[i]My name is Cortana, of the same steel and temper as Joyeuse and Durindana.[/i]" The only difference is that Bulfinch's Mythology uses the Italian version of Durandal's name, which seems wrong to me, but what can you do? Now, most people believe that these were three sister swords, but only Durandal and Cortana are in the same set of swords. Durandal, Cortana, and Sauvagins are the three swords that belong together. Joyeuse is in a trio along with Flamberge and Hauteclaire. In Marathon, Durandal was the name of an AI onboard the colony ship Marathon. I can detail anything about him you'd want to know, but it isn't the most important bit here. I'm going to spend the night reading Bulfinch's mythology, so I'll get back to you on your analysis of Ogier in relation to John a little later. I hope this gives you a bit to work with for now. [url=http://www.mainlesson.com/display.php?author=baldwin&book=roland&story=_contents]Here[/url]'s another site about The Story of Roland by James Baldwin. I don't believe Cortana is mentioned, but it does talk about Ogier the Dane as he was one of Roland's best friends aside from Oliver.

Hadn't even heard of the Lyca thing, I'll have to look that up to. Just had a gander at the Lyca.com, looks like Brail... fun, fun, fun! Oh, and here's another link to the Ogier story that was dropped by Ender. Haven't had a chance to look at it yet, but Roland was Charlemagne's chief Paladin who's sword was Durendal. [url]http://home.ix.netcom.com/~kyamazak/myth/roland/roland-items-e .htm[/url] [Edited on 11/9/2006]

This is where it gets a bit tricky hey, just how much of the story did Bungie potencially follow/borrow, how much creative licence did they use. Ogier's Father is the one who had him admitted to all of this training from the age of six, and from the age of 16 never really sees him again... So Ogier was in part created from his father, was put into training and never see's his father again from age 16. Who could be MC's equivalent? Humanity? He was created a human, humanity's need for a super soldier is what brought his creation and training to fruition. One could argue that because of all of his augmentations and armour that as of 14 he really wasn't a human anymore, but a cyborg/super human... in that reguard he can never be human again, looses his humanity/father. What does Ogier's father's death bode for humanity in this case? Well he dies eventually, and Ogier is offered the throne, but leaves it to his brother.... don't know how to read into that exactly, but could it be referencing evolution? Chuckmagne - A king who's sword is named Joyeuse.... ummmmm... I'm going to venture a guess... and that's all it is, but I think that Charlemagne is going to be the Forerunners. Haven't really looked at it too hard, but I get a feeling. Ruler of the Galaxie, with a treacherous son named Charlot (Gravemind?) who is eventually slain by Ogier. As for the embrace between Ogier and what's his pickle... perhapse it could signifie a truce between them or maybe even an aliance. Afterall the Arbiter knows the truth now, why would he attempt to stop MC..... I'm so curious to see the game, see if any of this continues to apply, or if we're just blowing smoke.

After thought, after both were traded back i have to assume that the problems with the Saracen Army stopped, and if i read Ghosts of Onyx correctly [ [ [ [ [ [Spoiler] [ [ [ [ the heretic and his army were destroyed by the Nova bomb, and then the survivors of that by the sentinels on Onyx. Did i assume wrong?

I pieced this together a while back, following a simailair trail you have. But my conclusion was that the story did not fit right and that bunige have used so many different mythologies in their story telling i found hard to believe it was based on this specific one. However i did not try to place names and places to the exact story and i shuold myabe revisit my original conclusion as you have given more food for thought. Additionally. at the time i went through the cortana letter's the "Lyca" thing got going. when i did some research it led me to Lyca.com. which at first glance appeared to be another viral campaign. But i have not been able to prove or disprove anything as it appeared to belong to some guy in belguim who created as a project. but the style and is similiar to a 4orty2wo campaign. did you find hte same thing? Thanks for posting something which at long last gives the wider community something to really consider. I had pstualted on it myself and i will postulate once more. 10/10 for this post from me. Thanks and Best Regards Camperman [Edited on 11/9/2006]

Here is a finished runthrough of the story(at least as far as i think it matters) P.S. i modified my original a little bit P.S.S. tell me if u see any thing that doesn't make sense(i'm not sure what Charlemagne is supposed to be) search "Bulfinch's Mythology - Home Page and Table of Contents" on Google, then go to the legends of Charlemagne, and near the bottom of the contents you’ll find a link to the story of Ogier, the Dane.(can't link, copyrighted page, story is compiled by Thomas Bulfinch) His sword, which he gains after he has been trained most of his life as a soldier, and is superior in every way to his peers, is named Curtana, with the aforementioned inscribing "[I]My name is Cortana, of the same steel and temper as Joyeuse and Durendal.[/i]" Ogier, at birth, is given six blessings before he was baptized 1. To be the bravest warrior, 2. To be able to show his valor, 3. He can't be beaten (vanquished) 4. He will be able to please (serve?) others 5. He is given "sensibility to return to the love he inspires"(not sure what it means, any input is appreciated) 6. He is claimed by "Morgana" and given immortality until he visits her at the isle of Avalon (Morgana could be Dr. Halsey) His baptism is a possible 7th blessing where he is given the name Ogier (maybe Spartan) As compared to master chief, he is 6 years old when he is "baptized" and turned into a Spartan(possible correlation, maybe not) Ogier grows up and "[i]In his education nothing was neglected to elevate him to the standard of a perfect knight, and render him accomplished in all the arts necessary to make him a hero. [/i]" At the age of 16, Charlemagne took him from his father (MC was roughly 14 when he left reach for his first mission and I think that was the last time he saw Mendez, can't remember) Ogier saves Charlemagne from death in battle with the Saracens, he awards Ogier and all the children he went to battle with, with knighthood (I think this means the Spartans were given the MJOLNIR Armor). This is when Ogeir receives the sword Cortana, which was blessed by the fairy Morgana (Dr. Halsey) (the Cortana we know was made from Dr. Halsey's mind) Continued This parts a little confusing Ogier is challenged by Carahue (possibly the arbiter), the king of the Mauritanians and a Saracen (Saracen are covenant as far as I can tell), he was also one of the knights overthrown as Ogier saved Charlemagne during battle (The Arbiter was the commander of the Elites until halo was destroyed). Ogier is set free from Charlemagne (Ogier was a hostage to keep Ogier’s dad paying homage to Charlemagne) and Charlemagne views him equal to his son. Ogier and Carahue agree to duel in a field halfway between each army, and Charlot and Sadon, Carahue’s cousin, are to duel as well. However, Charlot (brutes, Tartarus?), Charlemagne’s real son, is insulted because he is viewed as a lesser warrior than Ogier by Carahue. He recruits “[i]some knights unworthy of name [/i]” (not sure how many) and arms them with black armor. They are to ambush the party of four from the woods and surround them at the duel. Charlot signals the ambush, Ogier’s [i]“Cortana fell on no one without inflicting a mortal wound, but the sword of Carahue was not of equal temper and broke in his hands”[/i] Carahue falls off his horse, and is saved by Ogier, which anger’s Charlot. Charlot shoves his own horse into Ogier and knocks him over. He then tries to spear Ogier with his lance, but Sadon stops him. Charlot and his knights hide in the woods as a small group of Saracen knights approach. The knights are led by King Dannemont (Gravemind? Tartarus?), who was dethroned and exiled, by Ogier’s father(possibly referring to the Forerunners, explained below), from Denmark and forced to hide with the Saracens. The King immediately takes Ogier prisoner when he finds out his identity. Spoiler for Ghosts of Onyx ] ] ] ] ] ] ] Forerunners had to have been at least human ancestors, because in Ghost of Onyx, when the sentinel tries to talk to Ash, the leader of Team Saber, it says “Reclassification of targets (referring to Ash, a Spartan III) as non-Reclaimers. Aboriginal Subspecies.”(Explaining why Ogier’s dad could be the Forerunners pertaining to species) Because the Saracens won’t give up Ogier, Carahue offers himself as a prisoner to Charlemagne. Obviously the details don’t fit that part, but both Ogier (MC) and Carahue (Arbiter) are now prisoners (to gravemind) While they are both in captivity, the Saracen army is split because part of it, Carahue’s army (elites and grunts?), are mad at Corsuble, commander of the Saracens, because their leader is gone. They are both released in exchange for the other, (it also mentions that they [i]“embrace with vows of perpetual brotherhood[/i]” but the only time I’ve seen a hug is at the end of halo 1 between an elite and sergeant Johnson)and then Ogier is asked by Charlemagne if he will return to Denmark(his home, Earth) and defend his father’s kingdom from an invading army.(doesn’t say which army, but I’m going to assume it refers to the covenant, unless some flood managed to stow away on the forerunner ship that arrives at earth, as Cortana suggests in Ghosts of Onyx) Assuming that’s where the story in halo 2 ends here’s where halo 3 could begin Ogier arrives with an army provided by Charlemagne, successfully forces the invading army to run away, but arrives to the city to find his father has died before he was able to see him again. He found he is supposed to be the Heir to his thrown (Reclaimer?) but he denies it, passes it to his half brother, and returns to Charlemagne. There is a lot more to his story, but I find it hard to believe that it would happen in Halo 3, read Ogier's story's ending and tell me if u think it could happen. [Edited on 11/9/2006]

Well, it'll only be a sort of bump... I'll actually be posting what ever I find from my reading tonight... unless other people have beat me to it. I'm sure Cortana is a real name I just find it interesting that on the sword it says "My name is Cortana, of the same steel and temper as Joyeuse and Durendal". It's the two names appearing togeather that I find interesting and the corellations it makes with history/mythology, Halo, and Marathon... I'm just reading through the story of Ogier to see how well it matches up with MC's. Let you know what I find. Also if someone who knows something about Marathon (definitely not me) could have a gander at the story of Roland and Durendal and let me know how it sizes up that would be great.... it would save me a lot of reading (ie the entire Marathon storyline). I really wish there was more to do in Fort Saint John.....

Interesting, but didn't you know that Cortana was a real name? Also, it's against the rules to bump.

Nice job. Very short. A good addition to the excellent rainbow theory(this part not sarcastic).