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#Community

1/2/2013 5:10:47 AM
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A huge problem with this community

Before I begin, let me clarify something. This thread is mostly in reference to threads on the Flood, because the Septagon is saturated with employees, moderators, and people dedicated to pleasing the previous two groups, and because the game forums have effectively died. Bungie.net has a culture problem. A culture problem that I believe is detrimental to the growth and success of the website. Hostility is not really something I see talked about much here so I figured this was worth a thread. The Flood's not a pleasant place, and it never really has been. In fact, it got so bad that the Big Man had to step in and [url=http://www.bungie.net/Forums/posts.aspx?postID=26466683]do this[/url]. It kind of feels like the entire community, moderators and members both, have forgotten [url=http://www.bungie.net/Help/content_viewer.aspx?link=conduct]that being a jerk is a bad thing.[/url] Anyone who posts often on the Flood can see this. People are constantly tossing around insults, and pretty nasty ones at that. For some reason, no one seems to care anymore - maybe because we're dark, or maybe because we've just all gotten lazy or grown out of being bothered by such things. [url=http://www.bungie.net/Forums/posts.aspx?postID=76620787]Just look through a few[/url] [url=http://www.bungie.net/Forums/posts.aspx?postID=76616824]pages from a couple of threads made since yesterday.[/url] Let me stop here and say that I am not trying to be negative and judgmental towards the moderation team. I know that holding that position is difficult from experience elsewhere, I know how exhausting and bothersome the job is. I'm aware that moderators can't be everywhere at all times to ban people who are hurling nasty insults at someone. This is just as much a call to members. Every one of us are given a report button so we can help keep the forums clean, but who really uses it unless they're upset over something an OP said? How often do you see a post reported aside from OPs and harmful links? The sheer nastiness that can be seen just by scanning over any somewhat long thread is astounding. Maybe moderators don't ban people within threads because they don't see them. Maybe the same is true for people not reporting a post. I can't tell you how many times I've seen a moderator lock an exceptionally long thread, that everyone knows is nothing but a cluster-blam!- of angry people spewing hate at each other, and not bother to even read the second post. Like I said, I understand when you just don't see it, but why in the hell are people in these huge threads not reporting these types of posts? I know that people will be jerks on the internet, and I'm not expecting it to change. But can we please do something to get rid of this toxicity before new people start pouring in? People have strong opinions on things, and they're certainly entitled to them, but why do you have to insult someone by saying you can't tell if she's a boy or a girl? Why do you have to say nasty things to non-heteros, or females, or people who don't like the same private group as you do? Why is any of this tolerated at all? Allowing this stuff to go on is just running people away from the site, because a civilized person has no reason to spend their time being involved in a community that harbors these types of people. I know what the responses will be to this post. People will tell me how I'm being too sensitive and how it's just the way the internet is. People will tell me I'm one of the jerks. And look, I know I overstep the line sometimes when I'm joking. None of us are perfect, but I don't think asking members to attempt to be decent (and mods to enforce decency when needed) is too much to ask. You can ignore this problem all you want, but I know from talking to others that I'm not the only person who sees this. It's a real problem that needs to be fixed.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] DarkBen64 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] CrazzySnipe55 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] DarkBen64 How about that, proof of Godwin's Law. [/quote]It's not proof of Godwin's Law. Proof of Godwin's Law would require Hitler to come up in every thread on the site, and increasingly more often in larger threads. This is not the case.[/quote]godwin's law states that the probability that hitler is brought up approaches 1 as a discussion grows longer. Since it never actually reaches 1 and half of the topics on Bnet aren't even discussion worthy the fact that were here discussing Hitler in an unrelated topic now is proof enough. [/quote]Godwin's Law is that as a discussion continues, the probability of someone being [i]compared[/i] to Hitler approaches 1. Nobody's calling anyone else Hitler, so it hasn't yet been invoked.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Biack Rose66 I think your example is good, and would result in an almost immediate ban. But, that is more low level trolling. I'm talking about discussions that would lie in between. Something like "would the cause of jewish-born communist leaders in European nations give Hitler more leverage to spread propaganda?" I tried to word it in a neutral way, but along these lines, a thread like that would have chance to thrive by its OP. There is a distinct difference between promoting the label of a healthy and welcoming community to doing something for the good of the community- something that HAS to be done. We're talking about the extremes though, basically I think popular opinion shouldn't dictate who is right and who is wrong, especially if someone is really wanting to create a healthy discussion.[/quote]Take a look at this thread. It hasn't gotten this long because everyone wanted to talk about the OP's points in a reasonable and well-mannered fashion. Do you honestly think people here would be capable of having that kind of discussion without it being dragged down to this level? I don't - and the moderators generally seem to agree, because if they didn't, they'd allow political and religious discussions that had the potential to turn out well, and they generally don't. And yet, for some reason, that same standard isn't applied to discussions of gender, race and the like despite the fact that the same old trolls love to come out of the woodwork to derail such discussions. Here are the options: 1) Allow the discussions to continue, but crack down on people who attempt to derail them or use them as springboards for poor trolling. I believe that's what OP is trying to advocate. 2) Don't allow the discussions to continue, because the mains are incapable of hosting them without them turning to crap. I personally believe that solution #1 is the better one - but it requires an acknowledgement that there is a problem (i.e. that people like to derail and troll in these kinds of discussions, and more needs to be done about stopping them so that the quality of discussions and the community as a whole can increase). For some reason, several people ITT seem resistant to the idea of acknowledging that this kind of behaviour goes on at all - and ironically, they've chosen to do so in a way that only reaffirms OP's point. I do believe that the community can be improved, because I have seen other communities improved - and because I have seen people improving [i]here[/i], given the right kind of encouragement. But in order to improve, one must first acknowledge that there's room for improvement. People seem oddly resistant to that.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] CrazzySnipe55 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] DarkBen64 How about that, proof of Godwin's Law. [/quote]It's not proof of Godwin's Law. Proof of Godwin's Law would require Hitler to come up in every thread on the site, and increasingly more often in larger threads. This is not the case.[/quote]godwin's law states that the probability that hitler is brought up approaches 1 as a discussion grows longer. Since it never actually reaches 1 and half of the topics on Bnet aren't even discussion worthy the fact that were here discussing Hitler in an unrelated topic now is proof enough.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] jaythenerdkid [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Biack Rose66 The ambiguity of hatred towards antisemitism to curiosity or someone bringing evidence suggest something different to what we believe happened during that period is very large. Someone may honestly just want to play devil's advocate and make us actually think as opposed to saying what we've heard. If you blindly seek to destroy posts riddled with antisemitism, you'll destroys everything else in its way that resembles antisemitism. This goes for anything else: racism, sexism, or transphobia. If it's blatantly antisemitic in the form of violent videos or pictures, then that's a clear signal the person means harm, but you can't, nor shouldn't censor taboo-y topics for the sake of correctness if their only mean is to discuss it. [/quote]But the mains censor topics for the good of the community all the time. It's not like people are banned from discussing politics or religion because those topics are offensive - it's because discussing them often leads to the kind of hatefulness that's against the rules. I don't think it's possible for a forum such as this one to discuss whether or not Hitler was right (for example), without it leading to the same kind of hatefulness or poor attempts at trolling. Therefore, for the same reason that politics and religion aren't acceptable discussion topics, that one shouldn't be either. That's going solely by logic that is already employed by moderators making decisions about what to allow and disallow.[/quote] I think your example is good, and would result in an almost immediate ban. But, that is more low level trolling. I'm talking about discussions that would lie in between. Something like "would the cause of jewish-born communist leaders in European nations give Hitler more leverage to spread propaganda?" I tried to word it in a neutral way, but along these lines, a thread like that would have chance to thrive by its OP. There is a distinct difference between promoting the label of a healthy and welcoming community to doing something for the good of the community- something that HAS to be done. We're talking about the extremes though, basically I think popular opinion shouldn't dictate who is right and who is wrong, especially if someone is really wanting to create a healthy discussion.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] DarkBen64 How about that, proof of Godwin's Law. [/quote]It's not proof of Godwin's Law. Proof of Godwin's Law would require Hitler to come up in every thread on the site, and increasingly more often in larger threads. This is not the case.

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  • How about that, proof of Godwin's Law.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Elite Mouse Harlow is almost as good at disguising threads as Jay. Almost. The problem is we are meant to believe that you give a damn at all about what happens in the mains, which you of course don't. This is just about you not liking the way you are treated outside of your castle, and nothing more. dat ego[/quote]

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] jaythenerdkid [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Recon Number 54 For those who would ask us to "clean up based on not just HOW someone posts, but what they post", here's an example. Personally, I have a low threshold and tolerance (I am almost regretting this before I type it) for anti-semitism, holocaust denial and (what I see as) historical apologism/revisionism. Does that mean that I should (or would) permaban anyone who makes a "Hitler wasn't all bad" thread or uses terms like "Zionism" as if it explains everything? I could. And I would be able to explain/justify my actions, probably even get them to comply with the letter of the ToU and CoC.[/quote]Um...yes? Anti-semitism is disgusting and vile, and incredibly hurtful to the people at whom it's directed. How is that [i]not[/i] rule-breaking? It has nothing to do with personal triggers - that's a very nasty form of bigotry and there's no reason why it should be allowed in any forum claiming to promote a healthy and welcoming community. Same for any other kind of racism. Same for sexism. Same for transphobia. Same for people who pick on the disabled. It's not a difference of opinion, it's bigotry. And as far as I know, that's against the rules.[/quote]1. Anti-Semitism is not racism. Just thought I'd get that out of the way. 2. Someone can make a thread arguing that Hitler was not an Anti-Semite and that he did all that he did in relation to those 6 million Jews because of political necessity or some -blam!- like that. It is not a likely situation. It is not the correct interpretation of history. But it is not impossible to make a "Hitler did nothing wrong" thread without being anti-semetic.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Biack Rose66 The ambiguity of hatred towards antisemitism to curiosity or someone bringing evidence suggest something different to what we believe happened during that period is very large. Someone may honestly just want to play devil's advocate and make us actually think as opposed to saying what we've heard. If you blindly seek to destroy posts riddled with antisemitism, you'll destroys everything else in its way that resembles antisemitism. This goes for anything else: racism, sexism, or transphobia. If it's blatantly antisemitic in the form of violent videos or pictures, then that's a clear signal the person means harm, but you can't, nor shouldn't censor taboo-y topics for the sake of correctness if their only mean is to discuss it. [/quote]But the mains censor topics for the good of the community all the time. It's not like people are banned from discussing politics or religion because those topics are offensive - it's because discussing them often leads to the kind of hatefulness that's against the rules. I don't think it's possible for a forum such as this one to discuss whether or not Hitler was right (for example), without it leading to the same kind of hatefulness or poor attempts at trolling. Therefore, for the same reason that politics and religion aren't acceptable discussion topics, that one shouldn't be either. That's going solely by logic that is already employed by moderators making decisions about what to allow and disallow.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] jaythenerdkid [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Recon Number 54 For those who would ask us to "clean up based on not just HOW someone posts, but what they post", here's an example. Personally, I have a low threshold and tolerance (I am almost regretting this before I type it) for anti-semitism, holocaust denial and (what I see as) historical apologism/revisionism. Does that mean that I should (or would) permaban anyone who makes a "Hitler wasn't all bad" thread or uses terms like "Zionism" as if it explains everything? I could. And I would be able to explain/justify my actions, probably even get them to comply with the letter of the ToU and CoC.[/quote]Um...yes? Anti-semitism is disgusting and vile, and incredibly hurtful to the people at whom it's directed. How is that [i]not[/i] rule-breaking? It has nothing to do with personal triggers - that's a very nasty form of bigotry and there's no reason why it should be allowed in any forum claiming to promote a healthy and welcoming community. Same for any other kind of racism. Same for sexism. Same for transphobia. Same for people who pick on the disabled. It's not a difference of opinion, it's bigotry. And as far as I know, that's against the rules.[/quote] The ambiguity of hatred towards antisemitism to curiosity or someone bringing evidence suggest something different to what we believe happened during that period is very large. Someone may honestly just want to play devil's advocate and make us actually think as opposed to saying what we've heard. If you blindly seek to destroy posts riddled with antisemitism, you'll destroys everything else in its way that resembles antisemitism. This goes for anything else: racism, sexism, or transphobia. If it's blatantly antisemitic in the form of violent videos or pictures, then that's a clear signal the person means harm, but you can't, nor shouldn't censor taboo-y topics for the sake of correctness if their only mean is to discuss it.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] im am b0red Does OP know that this is the internet? [/quote]i keep thinking this. This happens everywhere, in every community, in real life or on the Internet.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] jaythenerdkid [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Recon Number 54 For those who would ask us to "clean up based on not just HOW someone posts, but what they post", here's an example. Personally, I have a low threshold and tolerance (I am almost regretting this before I type it) for anti-semitism, holocaust denial and (what I see as) historical apologism/revisionism. Does that mean that I should (or would) permaban anyone who makes a "Hitler wasn't all bad" thread or uses terms like "Zionism" as if it explains everything? I could. And I would be able to explain/justify my actions, probably even get them to comply with the letter of the ToU and CoC.[/quote]Um...yes? Anti-semitism is disgusting and vile, and incredibly hurtful to the people at whom it's directed. How is that [i]not[/i] rule-breaking? It has nothing to do with personal triggers - that's a very nasty form of bigotry and there's no reason why it should be allowed in any forum claiming to promote a healthy and welcoming community. Same for any other kind of racism. Same for sexism. Same for transphobia. Same for people who pick on the disabled. It's not a difference of opinion, it's bigotry. And as far as I know, that's against the rules.[/quote] What some call anti-Semitic, some would just call their person views, whether or not you like it. Just because one's personal views do not coincide with yours does not mean they are wrong. And, thankfully, [i]this[/i] forum is not run based on being against the higher ups popular opinions.

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  • That's fine to refute that, but this is the internet. This is the flood, they can not be changed. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Bricypoo Actually that is untrue, there are many occurrences of murders regreting their previous actions and changing their ways. I remember when a good friend of mine told me about his friend who killed his grandfather and was sentenced to life in prison. I would have said the samething, but the murder had counseling. (From someone I know) Who admitted that he regretted his actions and everyday he could take them back. But he didn't argue that he should be realized he stated he deserved what he got. But he would do is best to be a light in prison. This long story just to explain that even a murder can change his ways, then it is quite possible for a floodian troll to change his ways. You shouldn't not try something just because it is hard or because it seems impossible. Sometimes you have to try to change things for the better even if it seems to me a waste of time. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] the dark freckle You can't change the actions of a murderer (Unless by death.)[/quote][/quote]

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  • Does OP know that this is the internet?

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Recon Number 54 For those who would ask us to "clean up based on not just HOW someone posts, but what they post", here's an example. Personally, I have a low threshold and tolerance (I am almost regretting this before I type it) for anti-semitism, holocaust denial and (what I see as) historical apologism/revisionism. Does that mean that I should (or would) permaban anyone who makes a "Hitler wasn't all bad" thread or uses terms like "Zionism" as if it explains everything? I could. And I would be able to explain/justify my actions, probably even get them to comply with the letter of the ToU and CoC.[/quote]Um...yes? Anti-semitism is disgusting and vile, and incredibly hurtful to the people at whom it's directed. How is that [i]not[/i] rule-breaking? It has nothing to do with personal triggers - that's a very nasty form of bigotry and there's no reason why it should be allowed in any forum claiming to promote a healthy and welcoming community. Same for any other kind of racism. Same for sexism. Same for transphobia. Same for people who pick on the disabled. It's not a difference of opinion, it's bigotry. And as far as I know, that's against the rules.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Recon Number 54 I am not here to protect each and every member's personal experience and make sure that they each feel comfy, safe and welcome. I can't do that. I am here to make sure that the community as a whole is welcoming, friendly and open. That (IMO) means that we allow for a little "rough and tumble" exchange of views. Something gets TOO personal, too over the line (my line, not yours), then I act. But when I act, it is not to protect or defend the individual, but to act on behalf of the entire community and our hosts.[/quote]Interesting. I've had moderators tell me that I should report harassment more often because they believe they have a responsibility to make the place safe, comfy, and welcoming, as it were, for everyone - even minorities like me. But I suppose not all of you see it the same way.

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  • Actually that is untrue, there are many occurrences of murders regreting their previous actions and changing their ways. I remember when a good friend of mine told me about his friend who killed his grandfather and was sentenced to life in prison. I would have said the samething, but the murder had counseling. (From someone I know) Who admitted that he regretted his actions and everyday he could take them back. But he didn't argue that he should be realized he stated he deserved what he got. But he would do is best to be a light in prison. This long story just to explain that even a murder can change his ways, then it is quite possible for a floodian troll to change his ways. You shouldn't not try something just because it is hard or because it seems impossible. Sometimes you have to try to change things for the better even if it seems to me a waste of time. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] the dark freckle You can't change the actions of a murderer (Unless by death.)[/quote]

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Jiggleslinky Because you know all about being welcoming and understanding. K[/quote] QFT But in all seriousness, it doesn't help.

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  • I was referring to the Flood to make that clear. Yes I agree that you don't have to force everyone to be nice, but I disagree that Floodians can control their actions. Because, quite honestly they can't. If actions speak louder than words, then why is the pen mightier than the sword? There might certainly be a few nice and thoughtful people in the flood, but for every nice person in the flood; there's thirty baby killers and rapists. You can't change the actions of a murderer (Unless by death.) You can certainly not change the actions of someone behind an invisible wall, being able to talk about whatever they want, because they know that whatever they do, it won't come back and bite them in real life. You can't kill the majority my friend. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Bricypoo That I disagee with, you don't have to make every last person on the site a nicer person. You don't have to force people to be nice to make a nicer atmosphere, you just have to control your actions. Actions speak louder than any words ever could. If a few people were to take a stand for the community to help bring community and nice atmosphere it won't automatically fail. Some of the people who are helped by these few will learn by example and help others. It is a chain reaction that in the end could change the community for the better. Of course there will always be jerks, but you aren't trying to force them to be nice. You are just trying to make their screams quieter. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] the dark freckle [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Silentone2 Let me say this tenderly: There's no way, whatsoever, to change this. It isn't a problem. And if I could give you some advice, it would be that, if you want a peaceful forum geared towards gentle discussion, the forums for a series of first person shooters popular with teenagers probably isn't the place to look. [/quote] Exactly, if you go here to have intellectual conversations; or try to make this place a much nicer atmosphere. You are going to fail.[/quote][/quote]

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  • That I disagee with, you don't have to make every last person on the site a nicer person. You don't have to force people to be nice to make a nicer atmosphere, you just have to control your actions. Actions speak louder than any words ever could. If a few people were to take a stand for the community to help bring community and nice atmosphere it won't automatically fail. Some of the people who are helped by these few will learn by example and help others. It is a chain reaction that in the end could change the community for the better. Of course there will always be jerks, but you aren't trying to force them to be nice. You are just trying to make their screams quieter. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] the dark freckle [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Silentone2 Let me say this tenderly: There's no way, whatsoever, to change this. It isn't a problem. And if I could give you some advice, it would be that, if you want a peaceful forum geared towards gentle discussion, the forums for a series of first person shooters popular with teenagers probably isn't the place to look. [/quote] Exactly, if you go here to have intellectual conversations; or try to make this place a much nicer atmosphere. You are going to fail.[/quote]

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Silentone2 Let me say this tenderly: There's no way, whatsoever, to change this. It isn't a problem. And if I could give you some advice, it would be that, if you want a peaceful forum geared towards gentle discussion, the forums for a series of first person shooters popular with teenagers probably isn't the place to look. [/quote] Exactly, if you go here to have intellectual conversations; or try to make this place a much nicer atmosphere. You are going to fail.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Recon Number 54 In other words, there are going to be rude kids here. ___-phobes and haters of every ilk. When they go too far, the community and the moderators can/do respond. The fact that some members of the community want the line drawn elsewhere is a perfectly acceptable notion, but in the end, I draw my lines where I see them, and while I can accept, respect and even am willing to discuss (civilly) with anyone who disagrees. I have to be true and honest to myself in order to be capable of explaining/justifying my own actions.[/quote]I accept that, but what I am trying to say is that that outright hatred, with little to no civility behind it does not fall into a position that deserves respect in any way, in my opinion. It is explicitly stated in the rules that blatant disrespect is not tolerated, yet, as I mentioned, it's ALWAYS the moderators following a textual trail of destruction, usually after a thread has become a hot topic. Warnings and bans seem to be rarely issued except for extreme cases and, as I said, alts come back fairly quickly to do it all again in a different way. Not trying to sound pompous and/or self entitled, and I'm not sure if I'm the only one thinking this, but I have to deal with these sorts of people outside of the internet almost daily. When I come here, I come here to wind down and attempt to enjoy some conversation. I don't appreciate some immature asshats instigating a witch hunt against me because somebody else merely mentioned me. Now obviously, this is an extreme example, but it happens literally every time I'm mentioned. I did mention this to moderators before, and was assured that such behavior was inappropriate and would be subject to moderator intervention from then on. Again, this "intervention" hasn't happened outside of the few hours it was worst. More to my point though, replace "me" with any sensitive or even irrelevant or repetitive subject and you have yourself most of the people involved in the same offenses repeatedly, split between alts and seemingly untouchable accounts. As I said, there really doesn't seem to be any motive or repercussions for people voicing ill mannered thoughts or accusations (not necessarily opinions or viewpoints) to change their behavior. There's a difference between using a poor choice of words or manner to express a volatile opinion and just being offensive or insulting for the sake of it.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] iTz Hermione the flood forum is fine the way it is. People aren't always going to agree on everything. I don't mind the blunt attitude that the flood has. If a thread looks dumb in the flood I do this thing called: avoid it.[/quote] [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] DarkBen64 My only suggestion would be appoint a mod with a European timezone.[/quote]I like the sound of this. ;) All I got from reading this thread is: [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Telec ITT: people need to grow a thicker skin[/quote] [Edited on 01.02.2013 2:25 PM PST]

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  • Recon explains everything well.

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  • I agree that people should be nicer, and more courteous. But I also agree that especially on controversial subject as long it isn't breaking a rule everyone should be able to give his opinion. No matter how completely stupid the person's opinion seems to you. I think Recon explains it pretty well. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Recon Number 54[/quote] [Edited on 01.02.2013 1:47 PM PST]

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  • For those who would ask us to "clean up based on not just HOW someone posts, but what they post", here's an example. Personally, I have a low threshold and tolerance (I am almost regretting this before I type it) for anti-semitism, holocaust denial and (what I see as) historical apologism/revisionism. Does that mean that I should (or would) permaban anyone who makes a "Hitler wasn't all bad" thread or uses terms like "Zionism" as if it explains everything? I could. And I would be able to explain/justify my actions, probably even get them to comply with the letter of the ToU and CoC. But I realize that I would be letting what I know to be a personal hot-button affect my performance and judgement that is (hopefully) respected because I make every effort to NOT be subjective, or to inject/project my own personal views into my actions. Would these forums be "better off" without jerks who think that "Jew" is a verb, that there are evil moneychangers looking to rule the world and that the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" is anything other than a hateful piece of fiction? I would say that they (and the community) would be. But I know, recognize and accept that I have a less-than-dispassionate reaction to such things and so, I do my best to temper and even perhaps over-compensate before I act/react. Would I even have to consider or go to such lengths in a private group? Nope. Especially if it were mine. I would ban such fools so fast their heads would spin. My "tolerance and acceptance" has its limits too. But in the public forums, I do my utmost to not project my own bias and prejudices into my actions/reactions. Did I just explain things better, or make them worse?

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