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12/28/2012 4:24:32 AM
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Who REALLY won the war in space?
The more I think about it the more I start to tell myself that the UNSC, and not the Covenant, won the war in space in the end.
Yes I know it took three or four UNSC ships to destroy one Covenant ship, but overall I still think the UNSC had many major wins. The Unyielding Elephant, destruction of High Charity, the gas planet Admiral Cole nuked to cook the Covenant fleet in orbit, etc.... I really can't remember a time when the UNSC lost at least 150 ships or more in a single battle....
So overall, even though the Covenant won almost every engagement, when you add in Unyielding Elephant(500+ ships), High Charity (1000+ ships) and the fleet destroyed near the gas planet (300 ships) it looks like the covies lost a lot more in space than Humanity did.
Discuss.
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Humans ended up in a better position in my opinion.
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You forgot the NOVA bomb in Ghosts of Onyx. Not sure how many Covenant ships were lost then.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] nemesishunter7 You forgot the NOVA bomb in Ghosts of Onyx. Not sure how many Covenant ships were lost then.[/quote] I think it was only thirty or so ships correct? If I remember correctly I remember a small UNSC fleet defeating a small covenant fleet in space over Onyx, but then a larger Covenant fleet came and whiped out the remaining UNSC fleet. And then those new covenant ships were the ones that advanced onto Onyx, unless that was the fleet whiped out by the sentinels? I do remember a group of sentinels that fought against the covenant either before or during that battle, or perhaps it was an earlier battle.
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Well the covenant have many thousands of ships and the UNSC lost almost all of theirs. Even with the huge losses they took in space, their industrial capacity and the huge population, just made them easily replaceable. Think World War 2. In the Battle of Stalingrad, the Germans lost ~250,000 men, the USSR lost over 1,100,000 men. Guess who won. [Edited on 12.28.2012 1:19 AM PST]
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earth wins. always. [Edited on 12.28.2012 1:37 AM PST]
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UNSC barely made it. Covys had thousands of pre war hulls ready. Not to include troops and personnel. Only reason we won was due to the Events of Halo. Flood intervening. With out that humanity was fresh off the defeat of Reach. Yet Halo was that game changer. Elites Revolted allowing UNSC and Humanity a reprieve that saved every one from both Truth and the Gravemind. Humanity suffered allot of losses. We won by the skin of our teeth do not be fooled into thinking UNSC some how came out of it in good shape. It would have been interesting had the Spartans were able to capture Covy ships to learn where there leaders were but that did not pan out. Sure they lost allot of ships but they had plenty more the Covys did. Good thing In Halo Wars they were stopped also or Forerunner ships would have ended that war in months. [Edited on 12.28.2012 3:17 AM PST]
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All your examples are UNSC victories by pulling a deux ex or outnumbering the enemy. Otherwise Covies stomp. Only the keyes loop broke that cycle. Post war though. UNSC ships + shields + faster slipspace + other updates = Covie extermination
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] TallestSpark [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] nemesishunter7 You forgot the NOVA bomb in Ghosts of Onyx. Not sure how many Covenant ships were lost then.[/quote] I think it was only thirty or so ships correct? If I remember correctly I remember a small UNSC fleet defeating a small covenant fleet in space over Onyx, but then a larger Covenant fleet came and whiped out the remaining UNSC fleet. And then those new covenant ships were the ones that advanced onto Onyx, unless that was the fleet whiped out by the sentinels? I do remember a group of sentinels that fought against the covenant either before or during that battle, or perhaps it was an earlier battle.[/quote] Actually, no. Vice Admiral Whitcomb left a NOVA bomb in First Strike. Then in GoO, it explains how it was set off. I think it destroyed a very large Fleet, in the hundreds. It even says it destroyed a moon.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Mass Cat All your examples are UNSC victories by pulling a deux ex or outnumbering the enemy. Otherwise Covies stomp. Only the keyes loop broke that cycle. Post war though. UNSC ships + shields + faster slipspace + other updates = Covie extermination[/quote] That only seems to count for the Mary-Sue, I mean Infinity at the moment.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Mass Cat Post war though. UNSC ships + shields + faster slipspace + other updates = Covie extermination[/quote] Actually no, at this point all they have is the [i]Infinity[/i], which while more powerful than any Covenant ship is still only [i]one[/i] ship.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] And Im Here Too [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Mass Cat Post war though. UNSC ships + shields + faster slipspace + other updates = Covie extermination[/quote] Actually no, at this point all they have is the [i]Infinity[/i], which while more powerful than any Covenant ship is still only [i]one[/i] ship.[/quote] Nope, Frigates now have shields and other UNSC ships were getting slipspace drive upgrades. If frigates have shields then don't be shocked to find if more powerful UNSC ships have them to.
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...Yeah because Humans totally pushed the Covenant back to their respective home worlds. Oh wait...
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You forget how many human worlds were glassed.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] TallestSpark I really can't remember a time when the UNSC lost at least 150 ships or more in a single battle....[/quote] Because the UNSC had far fewer ships. The Covenant were going all-out, attacking human colonies and destroying them. The UNSC were doing their best to fend them off, and retreating when it looked hopeless.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] ferrrari [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] And Im Here Too [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Mass Cat Post war though. UNSC ships + shields + faster slipspace + other updates = Covie extermination[/quote] Actually no, at this point all they have is the [i]Infinity[/i], which while more powerful than any Covenant ship is still only [i]one[/i] ship.[/quote] Nope, Frigates now have shields and other UNSC ships were getting slipspace drive upgrades. If frigates have shields then don't be shocked to find if more powerful UNSC ships have them to. [/quote] This You can see a Frigate's shield flaring the Spartan ops spacebattle.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] And Im Here Too [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Mass Cat Post war though. UNSC ships + shields + faster slipspace + other updates = Covie extermination[/quote] Actually no, at this point all they have is the [i]Infinity[/i], which while more powerful than any Covenant ship is still only [i]one[/i] ship.[/quote] Not true. They have only a few ships about a dozen i would say or so. Halo 3 showed about three. Frigates but that was all that was left. ODST H:3 probably one or two more. At the End of 2552 it was clear humanity took one heck of a beating yet had only a handful of ships. Humanity was unprepared at the start of the Covy war. During it with captured Covy tech they retro engineered shields like they did with Spartans. Infinity may be the newest and largest ship but its not the only one left. Some probably forgot about the surviving MAC platforms still around earth. Not to mention other ships who were holding the line barely on inner colonies. That being said with the war over one would assume that earth is guarding the front door once again before it sends off its most expensive and biggest ship into space. Thus smaller ships are easier to produce then bigger ones. I am sure Lord Hood is working on rebuilding UNSC forces once again. [Edited on 12.28.2012 6:01 PM PST]
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While the UNSC's victories were mostly quality over quantity.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] TallestSpark [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] nemesishunter7 You forgot the NOVA bomb in Ghosts of Onyx. Not sure how many Covenant ships were lost then.[/quote] I think it was only thirty or so ships correct? If I remember correctly I remember a small UNSC fleet defeating a small covenant fleet in space over Onyx, but then a larger Covenant fleet came and whiped out the remaining UNSC fleet. And then those new covenant ships were the ones that advanced onto Onyx, unless that was the fleet whiped out by the sentinels? I do remember a group of sentinels that fought against the covenant either before or during that battle, or perhaps it was an earlier battle.[/quote]The NOVA bomb was detonated on a Sangheili gathering inside a supercarrier. It blew up like half the fleet, which basically forced the 'leets to side with humanity to avoid being killed by the Brutes. By the end of the war, however, the humans had nothing. Everything left was put to the Battle at the Ark, and you can see in Halo 3 that what they did have was a few frigates and destroyers, plus a few cruisers in orbit. By Halo 4 (about 4 years later) they had a few more ships on the Infinity (that frigate swarm in the beginning of Spartan Ops). Still, though, humanity was very weak. Although we must consider the Covenant. They might have more ships, but they can't repair them or build more because they lack the knowledge. Humanity won, but at massive, massive cost. [Edited on 12.29.2012 12:38 PM PST]
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I don't think the Coveys would just forget how to make ships. High Charity is gone but even the Prophets or Elites are not foolish enough to have a back up on there home planets. Besides if i were a alien race who had ties to the Covys i would have factories and not to mention space docks. It would be impossible to arm every soldier and make ships with out them. Even a few were featured as multi player maps in Halo 3 or was it Reach. Also having automated factories floating around and ammo dumps makes sense. Not to mention stashes for Covy factions currently. Covys love to scavenge forerunner tech and incorporate it into there arsenal Unless 343i changed that i would think it would be silly and does not make any sense at all. Every army or navy must have logistics. Covys would have lost steam during the War three years in with out some sort of supply chain. Also allot of Covy tech is modular. In a warrior like society they might not completely understand it but they can have science lances study it. Soldiers in the field know how to take care of wepons. Covys just get a new one if its defective. They don't have mechanics per se but everything is made at factories so mostly they do not feel the need to repair anything. Ships are modular fallowing Forerunner specs. So they can easily replace a damaged section or jettison it if nessary. I think they are about quarter strength from pre war totals. It would be a good guess. I can see the brutes just suffering but as for the Elites they are well supplied. Other factions it depends on if they are being supplied who has control that sort of thing. [Edited on 12.29.2012 2:27 PM PST]
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] TallestSpark The more I think about it the more I start to tell myself that the UNSC, and not the Covenant, won the war in space in the end. Yes I know it took three or four UNSC ships to destroy one Covenant ship, but overall I still think the UNSC had many major wins. The Unyielding Elephant, destruction of High Charity, the gas planet Admiral Cole nuked to cook the Covenant fleet in orbit, etc.... I really can't remember a time when the UNSC lost at least 150 ships or more in a single battle.... So overall, even though the Covenant won almost every engagement, when you add in Unyielding Elephant(500+ ships), High Charity (1000+ ships) and the fleet destroyed near the gas planet (300 ships) it looks like the covies lost a lot more in space than Humanity did. Discuss.[/quote] The only thing the humans won was to not be totally destroyed. The humans were about to loose and just because the focus was shifted to another enemy and the Covenant split in half it doesnt mean that they suddenly came out on stop in any sort of way. And how many fleets did the Covenant have in total? Cause im pretty sure loosing a few almost totally wasnt a big dent at all. Even with the forces split in half im sure that each side isnt just made up of a handful of fleet. I did a quick look in Halopedia and they have 18 known fleets. Anyone got more info on other fleets or the total number of fleets? BTW, the Arbiter's fleet from Halo CE had 300 ships and lost 6 during that battle. So yeah.... the Covenant is waaaaay on top when it comes to ship presence.
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Had 300 and lost 6 to one ship that was supposed to be outdated. Thank you Keys and Cortana.
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Space Monkeys.
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It really depends on how you see it. In my eyes the fact humanity [b]did[/b] contend with the covenant for so long and won [b]a few[/b] space battles is enough for me. In all honesty the Technology aside if the humans had ships to begin with it would have evened out. They pretty much [b]just[/b] started exploring and only starting building warships like 20 years before the covenant appeared. If the Covenant showed up another 200 years later and humanity had a good 2,000 warship total i think it would have been even. The main reason we lost was because of the shielding tech if the covenant didn't have that then we honestly would have won. -Grey101 [Edited on 12.29.2012 5:24 PM PST]
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Mass Cat All your examples are UNSC victories by pulling a deux ex or outnumbering the enemy. Otherwise Covies stomp. Only the keyes loop broke that cycle. Post war though. UNSC ships + shields + faster slipspace + other updates = Covie extermination[/quote] agreed, post-war humanity is boss, and are clearly the new power in the galaxy.
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Humanity one a few encounters before Infinity, only through sheer numbers, which it managed to lose ~3/4 of every time. Truth is, they got smacked.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] PermeableProgo [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Mass Cat All your examples are UNSC victories by pulling a deux ex or outnumbering the enemy. Otherwise Covies stomp. Only the keyes loop broke that cycle. Post war though. UNSC ships + shields + faster slipspace + other updates = Covie extermination[/quote] and are clearly the new power in the galaxy. [/quote] That's why Didact came to earth in his luxury ship and raped an entire city while the infinity was -blam!- it self.
