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DeBleserMike

DeBleserMike

12/9/2012 11:03:59 AM
So Humanity attacked and conquered other peaceful planets even Forerunner planets because they were fleeing for the Flood. After a 1000 year during war that eventually was born between the Humans and the Forerunners, the Humans were simply exhausted. The Forerunners almost exterminated the Humans and wanted to punish them etc... . After the Humans were devolved, the Forerunners learned that the Humans weren't actually attacking the Forerunners but fleeing from the parasite named the Flood. It was simply an act of survival. Now i wonder, how did i take a 1000 years to discover and understand the true nature of a war? If forerunners themselves were such an (almost) enlightened species they could have easily discovered the true reason of the sudden Human hostility despite their rivalry. -Couldn't the Humans just simply ask Forerunners to aid them in the battle against the Flood? The Forerunners saw themselves as the Guardians of the known galaxy, so they should have helped if needed, they were forced to help. -And even during the war that lasted 1000 years there must have been any trace of the Flood? -How many conversations can there be in a millenium? -How many interrogations during the war has there been? If i were a Forerunner and i would capture a Human, i would at first ask on which argument they attack. Or when Humans cleansed the surfaces of the Forerunner shield worlds, i as a Forerunner would simply ask why and then the Humans could have told about the parasite. No the Forerunners just reacted with a full scale armada.

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  • DecepticonCobra

    DecepticonCobra

    12/11/2012 6:41:08 PM Permalink
    [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Najar Why would a civilization as advanced as the forerunners not be able to comunicate to their other colonies?[/quote] Who is to say their comms centers were shut down? If a Forerunner force finds a human vessel destroying a planet with no knowledge of the Flood, then what? Especially at the time with slipspace being hectic and unreliable the farthest flung colonies would have to rely on slow subliminal communications. [quote]They build planets, weapons that can kill all the sentient life in the entire galaxy but they are not capable of sending an alert message or something to their capital world? Also as mentioned in the OP, after so many years of war not a single interrogation? You see, in the human-covie war there were multiple interrogations, but the UNSC didn't get answers because the Covenant were so obsessed in their beliefs that they didn't give information.[/quote] Judging from the Terminals, the Forerunners didn't really take prisoners and just attacked. Only towards Charum Hakkor's fall did they take prisoners, but by that point the Flood had been known to them. And as for the Human-Covenant War, the Covenant were known to NOT take prisoners, only Keyes was ever imprisoned and yet he did not betray any information. As for humans taking Covie prisoners, at least the Elites would sooner kill themselves then become prisoners. [quote]And as i remember one of the missions of the Master Chief was to capture a prophet, interrogate him and get to negotiations, why wasn't this tried by the forerunners?[/quote] To understand why none of that occurred, we'd need to know about the full conflict and as such all we've seen is ship battles and a few ground engagements that didn't leave many survivors. [quote]You get attacked by another race and you loose entire planets, yet you don't try to learn their motives, avoid war? You only kill them all without answers, yeah that sounds logical.[/quote] No, it isn't. But as it has been stated before the Forerunners, despite their techno prowess, let their hubris work against them. [Edited on 12.11.2012 10:42 AM PST]
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  • Najar

    Najar

    12/11/2012 6:04:53 PM Permalink
    [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] ArtooFeva [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] ThunderCavaler7 The reason why the prehistory humans didn't tell the Forerunners about the Flood is because [b]WHY THE -blam!- SHOULD COMMON LOGIC DICTATE WHAT WE DO WITH THE HALO FRANCHISE NOW THAT WE HAVE FULL CONTROL OVER WHAT WE WRITE[/b]? ... Yeah, I'm not a fan of the Forerunner Saga's storyline, in case you couldn't tell.[/quote]The same reason the UNSC let Master Chief and Arbiter blow up a Halo ring on the Ark when technically there was no threat anymore. The last level of Halo 3 is just as forced.[/quote] There was, what are you talking about? The gravemind was still there and the flood was spreading more and more, if they had waited more the gravemind could've escaped one or other way. Bungie failed to achieve that "We have no time O: " feeling, but still the threat was there.
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  • anton1792

    anton1792

    12/11/2012 5:53:56 PM Permalink
    [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] RollinRollin13 Maybe not all Humans, but possibly the Lord Admiral, as the one terminal somewhat suggests, as the one Human asks if they should warn the Forerunners and that the Flood outbreak is minimal - that there is time to warn them, to which the Lord Admiral basically goes "lolnope, nuke it all".[/quote] Forerunners worlds are sort of loaded with vessels that can perform slipspace jumps in atmosphere to other worlds in other solar systems, at any point and cannot be blocked by any known defence, as well as possessing slipspace gates to other worlds across the galaxy. Frankly, it's a miracle they managed to contain the Flood in the time they had. Had they waited, and had they contacted the Forerunners, they would have risked the parasite spreading to other worlds. The Forerunners would have likely stalled even longer in trying to evacuate people and treat the Flood like a sickness rather than a sentient, virulent and intelligent predator. (Which is exactly the attitude that killed the galaxy 10'000 years later anyway)
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  • ArtooFeva

    ArtooFeva

    12/11/2012 5:08:46 PM Permalink
    [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] ThunderCavaler7 The reason why the prehistory humans didn't tell the Forerunners about the Flood is because [b]WHY THE -blam!- SHOULD COMMON LOGIC DICTATE WHAT WE DO WITH THE HALO FRANCHISE NOW THAT WE HAVE FULL CONTROL OVER WHAT WE WRITE[/b]? ... Yeah, I'm not a fan of the Forerunner Saga's storyline, in case you couldn't tell.[/quote]The same reason the UNSC let Master Chief and Arbiter blow up a Halo ring on the Ark when technically there was no threat anymore. The last level of Halo 3 is just as forced.
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  • Rollin

    Rollin

    12/11/2012 9:32:33 AM Permalink
    If this was stated before, I apologize, it's late, I'm tired, and not feeling too inclined to read everything posted. The whole notion that Humanity never contacted the Forerunners in regards to their reasoning and the whole Flood threat is silly, but as I someone did state, it's probably just an aspect used to create the situation we find ourselves in in the games. Making history fit the present, more or less. A semi-reasonable explanation though would have been the Mantle. Both Humanity and the Forerunners saw the Precursors as, I don't want to say gods, not like how the Covenant saw the Forerunners, but there was that definite sense of awe. Kind of how children are in awe with their parental figures, and that's more or less my theory. Both Humanity and the Forerunners thought that they where the sole and rightful inheritors of the mantle, and that the other was simply another species not as grand as their own. The Mantle was that shiny toy both the children wanted, and as opposed to attempting to share it, they attempted to take it for themselves. Humanity felt that by exterminating the Flood they where simply fulfilling the Mantle because they saw the threat that it possessed. And my theory, albeit just a theory, is that they didn't feel too bad about wiping out Forerunners in the process. Humanity thought they owned the Mantle, and most likely saw the Forerunners as competition. Maybe not all Humans, but possibly the Lord Admiral, as the one terminal somewhat suggests, as the one Human asks if they should warn the Forerunners and that the Flood outbreak is minimal - that there is time to warn them, to which the Lord Admiral basically goes "lolnope, nuke it all". So, tl;dr while they may not of hated each other, both the Humans and Forerunners most likely saw each other as competition for the Mantle, and the Flood outbreak was simply an avenue Humanity saw to help promote themselves and wipe out some of their competition, thinking they could take care of the Flood themselves. So in all honesty, I don't think the Forerunners where the only ones with a bit of an ego problem.
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  • Najar

    Najar

    12/11/2012 8:36:58 AM Permalink
    [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] ajw34307 I'll indulge you for an explanation of that otherwise blanket statement, dear.[/quote] Why would a civilization as advanced as the forerunners not be able to comunicate to their other colonies? They build planets, weapons that can kill all the sentient life in the entire galaxy but they are not capable of sending an alert message or something to their capital world? Also as mentioned in the OP, after so many years of war not a single interrogation? You see, in the human-covie war there were multiple interrogations, but the UNSC didn't get answers because the Covenant were so obsessed in their beliefs that they didn't give information. And as i remember one of the missions of the Master Chief was to capture a prophet, interrogate him and get to negotiations, why wasn't this tried by the forerunners? You get attacked by another race and you loose entire planets, yet you don't try to learn their motives, avoid war? You only kill them all without answers, yeah that sounds logical. [Edited on 12.11.2012 12:38 AM PST]
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  • Chronarch
  • Najar

    Najar

    12/11/2012 7:46:24 AM Permalink
    [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] ajw34307 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Desert_Fox_23 The plot is horribly contrived... you don't need to be so blindly loyal to 343.[/quote] It's really not, it simply looks like you're incapable of understanding it and connecting the various sources on this subject together. It's not out of blind loyalty to 343i that I take the role of apologist, I do not believe in being loyal to a company, and FYI I take issue with a number of things they've done. No, it's the fact that you have so blatantly disregarded or simply cannot comprehend what has been presented to you when it does actually make sense.[/quote] The new story IS inconsistent, even if you want to accept it or not.
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  • Chronarch

    Chronarch

    12/11/2012 7:35:48 AM Permalink
    [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] DecepticonCobra I have to agree with the others who say the Forerunners wouldn't have likely given humanity any help or believed them. When Charum Hakkor fell, Yprin Yprikushma tried to warn them about the words of the Primordial and the Flood. Sure the question of "Why not tell them earlier?" pops up, but the Forerunners were xenophobic and did not hold humanity in high regard anyway. Would humans be believed anyway?[/quote] Exactly, they've sporadically squabbled against each other over thousands of years of history and, just as the Forerunners, the hubristic leaders of the galaxy, are about to win, they get a warning from their enemy. They must have just looked at it and laughed, thinking it a desperate plea for peace because they were losing - like someone who abandons a Halo Wars match when he realises you've got an army he can't counter in time.
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  • DecepticonCobra

    DecepticonCobra

    12/11/2012 7:27:25 AM Permalink
    I have to agree with the others who say the Forerunners wouldn't have likely given humanity any help or believed them. When Charum Hakkor fell, Yprin Yprikushma tried to warn them about the words of the Primordial and the Flood. Sure the question of "Why not tell them earlier?" pops up, but the Forerunners were xenophobic and did not hold humanity in high regard anyway. Would humans be believed anyway?
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  • ThunderCavaler7

    ThunderCavaler7

    12/11/2012 5:25:44 AM Permalink
    The reason why the prehistory humans didn't tell the Forerunners about the Flood is because [b]WHY THE -blam!- SHOULD COMMON LOGIC DICTATE WHAT WE DO WITH THE HALO FRANCHISE NOW THAT WE HAVE FULL CONTROL OVER WHAT WE WRITE[/b]? ... Yeah, I'm not a fan of the Forerunner Saga's storyline, in case you couldn't tell.
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  • Byron

    Byron

    12/11/2012 5:21:14 AM Permalink
    well the humans eventually gave in to the forrunners. the "sacrifice" of having their genes reversed to early human genotypes. this is when the flood stop attacking humanity. the flood are attracted to hubris and self centredness clearly. precursor test dun dun dun.
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  • Alf stewert

    Alf stewert

    12/11/2012 2:00:00 AM Permalink
    You have to put yourself into the situation we come up with things because we have seen the bigger picture we have time to think On what they should and shouldn't do however in context whats going on is from one mind/personality, a mind that thinks and has no idea of what his actions will do,
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  • Raviruga

    Raviruga

    12/10/2012 6:56:41 PM Permalink
    The "its a Human Bio-Weapon" theory might stand if the canon stated [i]the Foreruuners were actually aware the Flood were on their planets.[/i] But somehow they dident notice, and somehow I doubt trillions of Forerunners sat their with thumbs up their butts.
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  • SOME GUY789

    SOME GUY789

    12/10/2012 6:07:05 PM Permalink
    Then again what if the trminal Video is the first time Humanity attacked a Forerunner planet? The Forerunners never faced the Flood before, even if they were in contact with other planets the Sudden appearance of Humans right after the Flood attacked it would make it seem like the Humans used it to damage the defensive capabilities of the planet. Because of this it'd look like a Human Bioweapon.
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  • Chester Duncan
  • Citrus raptor

    Citrus raptor

    12/10/2012 3:55:47 PM Permalink
    I'll just leave this here before someone further abuses what's written in the Halo 3 Terminals: Example of the time it takes the parasite to [i]flood[/i] a planet with similar population, during the early stages of the conflict: [quote][i]"Observed extensive ground action on [LP 656 - 38 e]. 9,045 survivors barricaded within central goverment building. Structure's defenses inadequate to withstand extended siege by enemy ground forces (ca 1,572,034,315+). Estimated position overrun in [173 hours] 846 smaller groups in less defensible structures; global distrubution corresponding to [probability model zeta]. Estimated local position overrun in [9 hours] (average)."[/i][/quote]And...[quote][i]"Observed extensive ground action on [OM - 3 - 1123 b]. Enemy forces lacked basic unit cohesion but quickly gained numerical superiority. [32 hours] after enemy landfall 83% of local naval forces advocated total [destruction of the biosphere] following the evacuation of populated centers. Enemy losses were total. Estimated number of citizens evacuated before commencement of orbital blanket bombardment: 1,318,797 civilian / 43,669 military (.0006% of total population)."[/i][/quote] ~ both from the Halo 3 Terminals. [b]Note, I've written [i]ca[/i] instead of its sign since it is an extended character.[/b] It doesn't take seconds, or minutes, it hardly takes hours. The Humans did have time to wait; the parasite hadn't spread over more than what they considered to be a [i]"remote local"[/i]. The whole "one single spore" thing has been blown out of proportion. Even the Elites had the equipment and means to allow the Master Chief to board the carrier and rescue Cortana (or so they thought), and that was in the midst of another war. The following paragraphs should be seen as a guideline of how powerful the flood is; what kind of danger it inhabits: what initiated the two above events:[quote][i]"Observed local naval forces engage enemy irregular group near [OM - 3 - 1123]. Enemy group consisted of 149 commercial shipping vessels, passenger ferries, and private recreational vessels from neighboring system. Enemy losses were total. No damage was sustained by local naval vessels. However, it was immediately apparent that the enemy group sought only to enter [OM - 3 - 1123 b's] atmosphere and make landfall. In this they were partially successful."[/i][/quote] ~ Halo 3 Terminal Hubris and denial are who different things. This particular event is conrived and ill defined. If you don't think it's ridiculous that the Forerunner never witnessed the Flood during the human empire's conflict with it, I don't know what to say. Furthermore, here are a couple of possible ways humans could be taken seriously by the Forerunner: -They have a live Precursor in a time-lock! -They're allied with the San 'Shyuum, who could negotiate with the Forerunners. [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1TFhJki2goA]VIDEO WITH ALL HALO 3 TERMINALS[/url] (text only). Thought it might be more fun for some to watch a video instead of stale text. :) [url=http://halo.wikibruce.com/Server_03#Server_03]IRIS SERVERS[/url], [url=http://halo.wikibruce.com/070620-Server05-Log5]ONE[/url], [url=http://halo.wikibruce.com/070710-Server02-Log2]TWO[/url], [url=http://halo.wikibruce.com/070726-Server03-Log3]THREE[/url], [url=http://halo.wikibruce.com/070809-Server04-Log4]FOUR[/url], [url=http://halo.wikibruce.com/070620-Server05-Log5]FIVE[/url]. You'll be surprised of how much is in there.. Interpret them as you wish... [Edited on 12.10.2012 3:54 PM PST]
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  • anton1792

    anton1792

    12/10/2012 2:42:41 PM Permalink
    [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Old Salty27 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] anton1792 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] DeBleserMike If forerunners themselves were such an (almost) enlightened species they could have easily discovered the true reason of the sudden Human hostility despite their rivalry.[/quote] I wouldn't make the assumption that them discovering the true reason for the sudden Human aggression would have changed much. Humanity was the only force that could resist their hegemonizing and authoritarian influence, and challenge their claim to the Mantle. The Flood weakened Humanity and forced their hand. Forerunners then get a chance (And excuse) to remove the only power in the galaxy that can stop them. They also didn't understand how dangerous the Flood truly was at that point.[/quote] It would have been nice if 343 had explained this in the novels and Halo 4. The Human-Forerunner War and it's outcome would have made a lot more sense.[/quote] It explains the war but the outcome is less clear, especially with Halo 4 taken into consideration. The Forerunner Ecumenical Council originally agreed with the Didact to spare Humanity and make it stand with the rest of the galaxy, presumably with a war to disarm and break their empire, followed by Forerunner rule. I don't understand the Didact's sudden 180* though (Which is not really explained by him suddenly believing Humanity responsible for the Flood at that stage in the war.) on the issue, and why the Council essentially allowed it having had agreed with him prior. They nearly all went from disarming Humanity to complete and utter genocide. I could see the Forerunners taking the opportunity to remove Humanity's independence and power, but I don't see why they went so far, nor why they changed their minds half way through. Perhaps Didact re-convinced them again. (Or that he acted alone? If the Librarians views are anything to go by then the decision to "devolve" Humanity was maybe an unpopular one.)
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  • SubtleSpartan

    SubtleSpartan

    12/10/2012 10:04:27 AM Permalink
    Ancient humanity resented for forerunners because of their mantle and what it stood for, that's why they formed their own empire on the rim of the galaxy. the probably didn't trust the forerunners enough to handle the parasite on their own and decided to be on the safe side. Also don't forget how arrogant we are.
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  • Wicked Navajo
  • falcon8134

    falcon8134

    12/10/2012 6:01:31 AM Permalink
    More bodies for the flood to consume. Have we not learned how fast the flood spreads? look at High Charity in Halo2. My gosh I don't think the flood was even on HC for more than 3minutes before it was completly overrun. Floodgate in Halo 3? Aread was completly infected and John wasn't even that close to the crash site. The point is, bringing more bodies to the fight would have just made the enemy stronger. Who's to say the forerunners would even join the cause? Heck they were more than happy to sit back and study the flood for most of their war before they took their heads out their butts. I would also assume the humans were confident they could cure the flood, thus using it as a weapon in future enemies. Forerunners. [Edited on 12.09.2012 10:14 PM PST]
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  • Raviruga

    Raviruga

    12/10/2012 5:48:13 AM Permalink
    If the Forerunner's could mobilize their fleets the minute they knew the Humans had entered their system. They would have known of any Flood infestation. There is no good way to explain how the Forerunners seemingly let the Flood run amok on their planet's. Other then a contrived way to progress the plot to where 343 needs it. [Edited on 12.09.2012 9:48 PM PST]
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  • SOME GUY789

    SOME GUY789

    12/10/2012 4:55:42 AM Permalink
    [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Desert_Fox_23 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] ajw34307 When you attack an enemy in a head-on assault, what's your top priority going to be? Ensuring they can't call for reinforcements. Shut down planet-wide communication. Forerunners are left none-the-wiser, and humanity eradicates everything on the planet. Even with the Forerunners thinking the Flood was just a human bio-weapon, the shutting down of planetary communications would be an act of sabotage the Forerunner would believe that humans had themselves conducted. No matter which way you cut it, humanity look like the aggressors. No quick email to the Ecumene Council is going to change that.[/quote] You're bending the story to fit your needs. Your assumption that the Forerunner thought the Flood was a human Bio-Weapon draws the conclusion that the Humans and Flood arrived at [i]each[/i] Foreunner planet at [i]exactly[/i] the same time. But this assumption is proved wrong in the Halo 4 terminal where the Humans explicitly state that the Flood arrived ahead of them. So once again, the Flood were ravaging a Forerunner planet [i]before the Humans were even there[/i] and didn't manage to inform anyone off planet of this? Why were the Forerunner unable to send warning back home of the Flood before the Humans could arrive and destroy the planet? Surely the assumption can be made, that with how widespread the Flood infection was, that the Flood was affecting Forerunner worlds that the Humans never even visited. How could Humans be blamed for this? These questions have no answer because the plot is horribly contrived... you don't need to be so blindly loyal to 343. edit: It's clear after reading your posts that you're [b]very[/b] passionate about the direction that 343 is taking the story, so I give up debating the finer points with you. After all - it just boils down to a matter of opinion.[/quote] Think about it though your planets being attacked by the Flood you have no idea what it is you tell the rest of the Forerunners off planet. Then a Human fleet conveniently appears and destroys the planet any Forerunnner's who investigate the aftermath or were in contact with that planet could only assume the flood was a Human bioweapon. And the Humans appeared after to clean shop.
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  • Old Salty27

    Old Salty27

    12/10/2012 4:14:44 AM Permalink
    [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] anton1792 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] DeBleserMike If forerunners themselves were such an (almost) enlightened species they could have easily discovered the true reason of the sudden Human hostility despite their rivalry.[/quote] I wouldn't make the assumption that them discovering the true reason for the sudden Human aggression would have changed much. Humanity was the only force that could resist their hegemonizing and authoritarian influence, and challenge their claim to the Mantle. The Flood weakened Humanity and forced their hand. Forerunners then get a chance (And excuse) to remove the only power in the galaxy that can stop them. They also didn't understand how dangerous the Flood truly was at that point.[/quote] It would have been nice if 343 had explained this in the novels and Halo 4. The Human-Forerunner War and it's outcome would have made a lot more sense. [Edited on 12.09.2012 8:18 PM PST]
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  • anton1792

    anton1792

    12/9/2012 10:34:45 PM Permalink
    [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] DeBleserMike If forerunners themselves were such an (almost) enlightened species they could have easily discovered the true reason of the sudden Human hostility despite their rivalry.[/quote] I wouldn't make the assumption that them discovering the true reason for the sudden Human aggression would have changed much. Humanity was the only force that could resist their hegemonizing and authoritarian influence, and challenge their claim to the Mantle. The Flood weakened Humanity and forced their hand. Forerunners then get a chance (And excuse) to remove the only power in the galaxy that can stop them. They also didn't understand how dangerous the Flood truly was at that point.
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