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DragonzZilla

DragonzZilla

12/6/2012 1:04:43 AM
Crap, if I was given the choice to serve alongside the elites or the Didact with me and my family protected from their campaign, I would join them! Why? Because I just finished reading Thursday War. Humans have become major -blam!-s after the Human Covenant War... I understand the need to secure and keep an eye on your former enemy. But having thoughts of glassing Sanghelios? Hatching plans to biological sabotage what little food the elites can grow? Not to mention have them fight among each other in petty war!? I thought humanity would be better than this but I guess not. Sign me up, you xenophobic warlords.

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    OrderedComa

    OrderedComa

    12/10/2012 6:43:46 AM Permalink
    [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Jump Into Hell First off, a trilogy can't be a book. Secondly, did you even read The Thursday War or any books from "The Trashlands Trilogy"? Throughout Glasslands, the narrative follows not only Kilo-Five but also Jul 'Mdama and his experiences with the Servants of the Abiding Truth. Thursday War has even more of this, with Raia and Jul's struggles being shown even more clearly. The only one-sided part about the trilogy is how the peaceful humans' viewpoints are not shown clearly in favour of ONI's "kill all the aliens" stance. Which is frankly a minor issue since ONI is the one that holds the power to wreck the weakened Sanghelios - espionage to destroy the Sangheili is a cheaper and safer alternative to having a peace treaty and expecting a previously hostile alien race to keep their side of the deal.[/quote] That's actually what a trilogy technically is, all one story, the same with two-part episodes in a tv series. In any case, "Glasslands", "Glasslands Trilogy" mean the same thing, doesn't matter which one is used, they're both the same story. You may have missed my point, I wasn't talking about "Elite point of view" and "human point of view" what I was referring to were the opposites of what Traviss' soapbox mouth-pieces think. Such as the bull-blam!- contained in the smear-campaign against Halsey, no other point view is presented or acknowledged on the issue except "Halsey is the devil and the vile spawn of Satan", which is not the way to a deep or well developed story, what it leads to is a one-dimensional tale and flat characters populating a flat world. The same with the Elites, every single one is painted with the same brush except for the Arbiter, IE, "we hate humans and want them all dead, hurpa derpa, peace only good until we get kill moar hummies!!!11!11!". That is the only view treated as being held by the Elites, even those who were supporting the Arbiter, such as Levu. They all want to continue genocidal war against humanity, the only differences is...[i]when[/i]. You have those like Jul who want it here and now, and then Levu and Raia, who want to wait, but still want to kill humanity off as much as Jul does. You even get Phillips broad and black and white statement about every single Elite hating humans as well. In Trashlands, the actual canon Bungie laid out from Halo 2 onward for the Elites when it comes to their opinions on humans and relations between the two groups is thrown out and completely ignored. ONI does not hold any power, they are subservient to the UNSC and under its direct command...in canon at least (which Glasslands Trilogy is not by any stretch of the imagination, not even close). They are not a law unto themselves and able to do whatever they want to whenever they want with no consequences, they're not Cerberus, despite what Maggot Parangosky might think otherwise. Even derpy, retarded Cerberus in Mass Effect 3 is smarter than ONI is in Karen Travissty's works. What the Office of Naval Idiocy/Incompetence is doing is not safer by any means, all it takes is one Elite, whether pro-human or a racist like Jul, to find out what they're doing for another war to start up. One the Elites would win effortlessly, if the UNSC tried fighting the Elites, they would fail miserably and it would be a complete curbstomp. Parangosky's plans are not the smart or safe thing to do at all. And the majority of the Elites are human sympathizers, or humans aren't considered that big a deal one way or the other, neither of which wants further war with humanity and stopped fighting them as soon as they found out everything the Prophets had ever said was a completely lie and the very grounds for the fight were groundless. And regardless of opinions on humans and humanity, [i]all[/i] of the Elites follow the guidance and leadership of the Arbiter, he is the de-facto leader of the Sangheili and all of their territories.
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    Cmdr DaeFaron

    Cmdr DaeFaron

    12/10/2012 6:19:55 AM Permalink
    Whatever happened to both sides of the elites being shown? You know, the elites who don't care or like humanity?
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    Jump Into Hell

    Jump Into Hell

    12/10/2012 3:06:02 AM Permalink
    [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] OrderedComa That is exactly why the whole Trashlands Trilogy is such a god awful book (besides Traviss deciding her views are the only ones and are completely right while everyone else and the previously established lore/canon is wrong), the fact that is does not acknowledge any other presence than the ones expressed by the characters. None of what you listed is talked about or shown at all, it's completely ignored because in Traviss and 343i's non-canon little perversion on Halo, none of it exists. Both sides of anything in a book need to be given a presence, that doesn't mean giving them a spot as a point of view character or even making them a hugely major character, it just means having them present at some points and/or talked about. If you just present one view and that one alone, the story becomes one-dimensional and poorly developed. That was one of the main reasons for Ackerson existing besides providing minor conflict, to present a view other than what the protagonists think and their opinions. Or in Harry Potter for instance, the characters from the Ministry of Magic, with the exception of Dolores Umbridge, who don't believe Voldemort has returned are all good guys, they clearly want to get rid of the Death Eaters and share the same overall goals as the good guys, but they don't agree with the protagonists on plenty of issues. In order to have depth, more than one side needs to be present, which Trashlands completely lacked.[/quote] First off, a trilogy can't be a book. Secondly, did you even read The Thursday War or any books from "The Trashlands Trilogy"? Throughout Glasslands, the narrative follows not only Kilo-Five but also Jul 'Mdama and his experiences with the Servants of the Abiding Truth. Thursday War has even more of this, with Raia and Jul's struggles being shown even more clearly. The only one-sided part about the trilogy is how the peaceful humans' viewpoints are not shown clearly in favour of ONI's "kill all the aliens" stance. Which is frankly a minor issue since ONI is the one that holds the power to wreck the weakened Sanghelios - espionage to destroy the Sangheili is a cheaper and safer alternative to having a peace treaty and expecting a previously hostile alien race to keep their side of the deal.
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    Starless Legacy
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    Manny

    Manny

    12/10/2012 12:41:47 AM Permalink
    [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] OrderedComa [quote][b]Posted by:[/b]Spartan1995324 The Treaty of Versailles didn't go far enough. It like "half gutted" Germany, causing them to have a reason to rise up again. If they had finished the job properly ("properly" being totally demolishing Germany) then Germany wouldn't have been around to rise up. If there are no Elites left... There is no way for them to rise up is there? I personally agree with the alliance between Humanity and Elites. Like post WWII, Humanity should lend the Elites a hand so that the Elites think we're not a war mongering species (even though we are). Do note that allies can be threats as well. If the USA turned on Canada, the USA could very well win. Therefore despite them being allies, the USA is also a threat to Canada.[/quote] Why would they even come back for a fight though? They're done, the Elites know they've been lied to about humans for 30+ years and have no reason for continuing to fight them, which most don't want to do. There is no sense in attacking a race that doesn't want to fight you anymore, it's nonsensical because doing so only prompts what you wanted to avoid happening again. Hardly >_> I don't consider Humanity war mongering at all, individuals do not define a whole race, and as a whole Human civilization attempts to avoid war as much as possible, most certainly nowadays and starting around the time of the Napoleonic Wars in Europe. Well, I suppose with that line of reasoning you can consider anything or anyone a threat >_> That's not how most people would define a threat though. Most people I know, and myself, would be defining whatever is considered a threat as an individual or group that is hostile to others and usually attempts to get what they want through violence or underhanded means, at least for the specific kind of threat we're talking about here.[/quote] 1. Preemptive strike. Get them before they get you. The Elites like Jul think that Humanity will expand again. If Humanity is allowed to get back on their feet Elites like Jul fear they will seek revenge. Unlike the former Covenant client species, Humanity knows how to take care of its self, already giving it a head start in the process of rebuilding. 2. ...What? Humans have been fighting since the dawn of man kind. WWI and WWII were both after the Napoleonic wars. WWII had a clear reason, but WWI? Not so much. Vietnam? The USA didn't need to be there? Iraq? Invaded because they THOUGHT they had WMDs. South American countries have been going at long after the Napoleonic wars. Peru and Chile have been at war at various points throughout history. Africa is full of civil strife. The Middle East has tensions between Israel and Palestine (as usual) which did result in some rockets being fired. Syria is in civil war. Egyptians are clashing with police forces. Turkey is preparing itself to shoot down any missiles coming from Syria. Fighting is part of us. It's always going on somewhere in the world. Humanity, as a species, fights quite a lot. Does that make us bad? No. It just makes us like everyone else. The Elites know that, so why assume that Humanity is going to be all friendly and peaceful from now until forever? 3. Anything CAN be a threat. The potential is there. Going be your definition of a threat...hostiles that attempt to get what they want through violence or underhanded means? Sounds like Humanity throughout history. Hood is one man and Thel is one Elite, who want a cease-fire between their species. That much I support and see as practical. However as Glasslands has shown, not everyone is all friendly. Vaz is probably representative of a large group of UNSC soldiers that grew up in the Human-Covenant war. That went on for 25 years. It's more than enough time for someone to grow up in. Phillips sees the Elites as people. He said so in the Thursday War. There ARE humans who want peace with the Elites. Jul KNOWS what the Elites did was WRONG. Now he wants to eliminate humans for a different reason. He feels like he has to finish what he started. It's something along the lines of "Oh -blam!- I punched him! Now he's going to punch me back...might as well finish the fight" The younger Elites that served alongside humans didn't have the Prophet's opinions shoved down their throats as long, and now can form their own opinions on humans. They sympathize with humanity. There ARE Elites that want peace, or a cease fire at the least, with humanity. Both sides have supporters and haters of a ceasefire or peace.
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    OrderedComa

    OrderedComa

    12/9/2012 10:38:36 PM Permalink
    [quote][b]Posted by:[/b]Spartan1995324 I thought we were discussing the "trash lands" books specifically...[/quote] Heh, my bad :P I thought you were talking about all of the books in general, it didn't sound like you were talking about just the Glasslands Trilogy, hehe ^^' [quote]The Treaty of Versailles didn't go far enough. It like "half gutted" Germany, causing them to have a reason to rise up again. If they had finished the job properly ("properly" being totally demolishing Germany) then Germany wouldn't have been around to rise up. If there are no Elites left... There is no way for them to rise up is there? I personally agree with the alliance between Humanity and Elites. Like post WWII, Humanity should lend the Elites a hand so that the Elites think we're not a war mongering species (even though we are). Do note that allies can be threats as well. If the USA turned on Canada, the USA could very well win. Therefore despite them being allies, the USA is also a threat to Canada.[/quote] Why would they even come back for a fight though? They're done, the Elites know they've been lied to about humans for 30+ years and have no reason for continuing to fight them, which most don't want to do. There is no sense in attacking a race that doesn't want to fight you anymore, it's nonsensical because doing so only prompts what you wanted to avoid happening again. Hardly >_> I don't consider Humanity war mongering at all, individuals do not define a whole race, and as a whole Human civilization attempts to avoid war as much as possible, most certainly nowadays and starting around the time of the Napoleonic Wars in Europe. Well, I suppose with that line of reasoning you can consider anything or anyone a threat >_> That's not how most people would define a threat though. Most people I know, and myself, would be defining whatever is considered a threat as an individual or group that is hostile to others and usually attempts to get what they want through violence or underhanded means, at least for the specific kind of threat we're talking about here.
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    anton1792

    anton1792

    12/9/2012 7:26:03 PM Permalink
    [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Darthbill99 Are you arguing that the Elites shouldn't feel bad for what they did?[/quote] No, I just question why none of them do. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Darthbill99 Personally, I think that many elites are condemning humanity in order to absolve themselves of the guilt of having committed a merciless genocide.[/quote] Probably, but there's no ambivalence or shallow consolidation present that this sort of behaviour gives you, because you are essentially making up crap that you know is wrong or that there is no evidence for, to convince yourself. It's a belief you made up after the fact. They either haven't had their beliefs changed one bit in order for this doubt to persist, or the scenario has not been properly thought out. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Darthbill99 As for the rest, I didn't read the graphic novel, so you may be right, but regardless, the characters that portray the feelings of hatred towards the elites did know the full extent of their crimes,[/quote] Indeed, but we didn't start off discussing these characters though. It was Humanity in general.
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    Manny

    Manny

    12/9/2012 6:36:21 AM Permalink
    [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] OrderedComa [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Spartan1995324 In the whole story of Halo, the good guys have their point of view seen in the games, the bad guys have it seen in the books. The good guys get more publicity, so I don't see what the complaint is. [/quote] Actually that isn't accurate at all >_> None of the books have been from the perspective of the bad guys, not even Cole Protocol, Thel is not once presented as evil or one of the villains, and he's one of the lead characters. Maccabeus isn't a villain either, before Tartarus killed him he was starting to turn his back on the Covenant religion. None of the books have been about the evil characters or villains, they've sometimes gotten a point of view section within the books, like Zuka Zamamee, but the stories are not about them. What gave you that idea?[/quote]I thought we were discussing the "trash lands" books specifically... [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] OrderedComa [quote]If the other side is eliminated for good, you never have to worry about them again. That much is fact. Parangosky wants the Elites dead for some of the reasons France wanted to punish Germany after WW1. Germany had caused a lot of destruction, and France wasn't willing to go through that again. If France had had their way, Germany would have even worse of than it already was. After WWI Germany wasn't really a massive threat. Then look what happened. They left Germany alive. They could have broken it up into splinters. They could have wiped out the German population. Instead they chose to let Germany live and lick its wounds. Then look what happened. Germany came back stronger than ever. Maggie fears that. She doesn't want the Elites coming back like Germany did. She wants the problem solved for good. Killing all the Elites IS an option, and it's one that would prevent the Elites from rising again. That's a fact. If the Elites were extinct, they can't rise up. Do I agree with that? No. Is it a permanent solution? Yes. Maggie and Hood both want what's best for humanity. Neither of them want a repeat of the Human-Covenant war. Maggie has just decided to go down a much darker route.[/quote] The two are not even remotely alike except in one side wanting revenge on the other for no other reason than feeling slighted and being petty. In addition, World War II would have never happened, not with Germany as one of the aggressors anyways, if the whole Treaty of Versailles fiasco hadn't been imposed on them after WWI. Hitler didn't rise because Germany was allowed to continue on, he rose to power because the allies chose to stomp all over Germany with the surrender treaty and rob the nation of its dignity. I raise you a counter point, look what happened after World War II, rather than imposing harsh terms and abusive conditions on Germany or Japan, the allies treated them rather graciously and helped them rebuild after the war, and they haven't shown tendencies like during WWII since. All anything like the Treaty of Versailles or what Maggot Parangosky is trying to do will be causing more violence and breeding hatred that will lead to more trouble down the road. Parangosky has been quite clearly shown to not want what's best for the human race, she may [i]claim[/i] that and delude herself with thinking that's what she wants, but that's not true at all. All she wants is her own way, and that is revenge, plain and simple petty, spiteful revenge. As I've said several times before, if humanity's best interests were truly what Parangosky had at heart, she would not be going against the plans of her own government committing treason. She would be working to root out people trying to cause a ruckus and create more war like Telcam, Jul, the Servants of Abiding Truth, and the groups/people that would be willing to join the Storm, not arming them and helping them try to overthrow the Arbiter. As I've also said before, many, many times in fact, the Elites aren't a threat or a danger at all. They're in fact, potential allies of humanity, those who would be enemies are a ridiculously small portion of their population, the majority want peace and no more war with the human race.[/quote]The Treaty of Versailles didn't go far enough. It like "half gutted" Germany, causing them to have a reason to rise up again. If they had finished the job properly ("properly" being totally demolishing Germany) then Germany wouldn't have been around to rise up. If there are no Elites left... There is no way for them to rise up is there? I personally agree with the alliance between Humanity and Elites. Like post WWII, Humanity should lend the Elites a hand so that the Elites think we're not a war mongering species (even though we are). Do note that allies can be threats as well. If the USA turned on Canada, the USA could very well win. Therefore despite them being allies, the USA is also a threat to Canada.
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    OrderedComa

    OrderedComa

    12/9/2012 5:51:44 AM Permalink
    [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Spartan1995324 In the whole story of Halo, the good guys have their point of view seen in the games, the bad guys have it seen in the books. The good guys get more publicity, so I don't see what the complaint is. [/quote] Actually that isn't accurate at all >_> None of the books have been from the perspective of the bad guys, not even Cole Protocol, Thel is not once presented as evil or one of the villains, and he's one of the lead characters. Maccabeus isn't a villain either, before Tartarus killed him he was starting to turn his back on the Covenant religion. None of the books have been about the evil characters or villains, they've sometimes gotten a point of view section within the books, like Zuka Zamamee, but the stories are not about them. What gave you that idea? [quote]If the other side is eliminated for good, you never have to worry about them again. That much is fact. Parangosky wants the Elites dead for some of the reasons France wanted to punish Germany after WW1. Germany had caused a lot of destruction, and France wasn't willing to go through that again. If France had had their way, Germany would have even worse of than it already was. After WWI Germany wasn't really a massive threat. Then look what happened. They left Germany alive. They could have broken it up into splinters. They could have wiped out the German population. Instead they chose to let Germany live and lick its wounds. Then look what happened. Germany came back stronger than ever. Maggie fears that. She doesn't want the Elites coming back like Germany did. She wants the problem solved for good. Killing all the Elites IS an option, and it's one that would prevent the Elites from rising again. That's a fact. If the Elites were extinct, they can't rise up. Do I agree with that? No. Is it a permanent solution? Yes. Maggie and Hood both want what's best for humanity. Neither of them want a repeat of the Human-Covenant war. Maggie has just decided to go down a much darker route.[/quote] The two are not even remotely alike except in one side wanting revenge on the other for no other reason than feeling slighted and being petty. In addition, World War II would have never happened, not with Germany as one of the aggressors anyways, if the whole Treaty of Versailles fiasco hadn't been imposed on them after WWI. Hitler didn't rise because Germany was allowed to continue on, he rose to power because the allies chose to stomp all over Germany with the surrender treaty and rob the nation of its dignity. I raise you a counter point, look what happened after World War II, rather than imposing harsh terms and abusive conditions on Germany or Japan, the allies treated them rather graciously and helped them rebuild after the war, and they haven't shown tendencies like during WWII since. All anything like the Treaty of Versailles or what Maggot Parangosky is trying to do will be causing more violence and breeding hatred that will lead to more trouble down the road. Parangosky has been quite clearly shown to not want what's best for the human race, she may [i]claim[/i] that and delude herself with thinking that's what she wants, but that's not true at all. All she wants is her own way, and that is revenge, plain and simple petty, spiteful revenge. As I've said several times before, if humanity's best interests were truly what Parangosky had at heart, she would not be going against the plans of her own government committing treason. She would be working to root out people trying to cause a ruckus and create more war like Telcam, Jul, the Servants of Abiding Truth, and the groups/people that would be willing to join the Storm, not arming them and helping them try to overthrow the Arbiter. As I've also said before, many, many times in fact, the Elites aren't a threat or a danger at all. They're in fact, potential allies of humanity, those who would be enemies are a ridiculously small portion of their population, the majority want peace and no more war with the human race.
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    MendicantBill

    MendicantBill

    12/9/2012 4:17:44 AM Permalink
    [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Connor Kenway 99 Thursday War is already out? Where have I been? Anyway, the Didact wants humanity gone because he fears what'll happen to his people.[/quote]It's been out for months....
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    Connor Kenway 99

    Connor Kenway 99

    12/9/2012 1:49:35 AM Permalink
    Thursday War is already out? Where have I been? Anyway, the Didact wants humanity gone because he fears what'll happen to his people.
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    Manny

    Manny

    12/9/2012 12:08:26 AM Permalink
    [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] OrderedComa [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] ROBERTO jh The good guys do have a say. Play a game or read a book from the past ten years and you'll see what they have to say. The purpose of Kilo-Five is to reinforce that not everyone is friendly as Halo 3 would have us believe, not everyone agrees, and no one is completely in the right (you know, like in real life). The good guys are still represented in the books, but are kept for minor rolls because there are other important manners they have to cover first. There can only be so much.[/quote] If that's what helps you sleep at night :P That is exactly why the whole Trashlands Trilogy is such a god awful book (besides Traviss deciding her views are the only ones and are completely right while everyone else and the previously established lore/canon is wrong), the fact that is does not acknowledge any other presence than the ones expressed by the characters. None of what you listed is talked about or shown at all, it's completely ignored because in Traviss and 343i's non-canon little perversion on Halo, none of it exists. Both sides of anything in a book need to be given a presence, that doesn't mean giving them a spot as a point of view character or even making them a hugely major character, it just means having them present at some points and/or talked about. If you just present one view and that one alone, the story becomes one-dimensional and poorly developed. That was one of the main reasons for Ackerson existing besides providing minor conflict, to present a view other than what the protagonists think and their opinions. Or in Harry Potter for instance, the characters from the Ministry of Magic, with the exception of Dolores Umbridge, who don't believe Voldemort has returned are all good guys, they clearly want to get rid of the Death Eaters and share the same overall goals as the good guys, but they don't agree with the protagonists on plenty of issues. In order to have depth, more than one side needs to be present, which Trashlands completely lacked.[/quote]In the whole story of Halo, the good guys have their point of view seen in the games, the bad guys have it seen in the books. The good guys get more publicity, so I don't see what the complaint is. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] OrderedComa [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Spartan1995324 Maggie's tactics are understandable. Practical even. Take them out now, and never worry about them again. I however prefer Hood's plan, I can certainly see where Maggie is coming from.[/quote] Hardly, they're the tactics of someone who's a completely mad and gone senile. There is no sense to it, if Maggot Parangosky was really that worried about humanity she would be working with the government and supporting the Arbiter's forces, instead, all she wants is revenge to satisfy her petty and spiteful nature. She just wants all Elites gone, not because they're a threat (because they aren't), but because she wants revenge and thinks that she knows better than anyone else. There's nothing practical about it, in fact, Parangosky's plan is very juvenile and the equivalent of two little kids fighting on the playground. Parangosky's whole attitude is the same as going, "you hit me, so I'm going to hit you back harder and them I'm going to go kick your whole family". It's good you don't take psycho--blam!-'s side, but there's nothing to see where Parangosky is coming from except insanity and raving lunacy.[/quote]If the other side is eliminated for good, you never have to worry about them again. That much is fact. Parangosky wants the Elites dead for some of the reasons France wanted to punish Germany after WW1. Germany had caused a lot of destruction, and France wasn't willing to go through that again. If France had had their way, Germany would have even worse of than it already was. After WWI Germany wasn't really a massive threat. Then look what happened. They left Germany alive. They could have broken it up into splinters. They could have wiped out the German population. Instead they chose to let Germany live and lick its wounds. Then look what happened. Germany came back stronger than ever. Maggie fears that. She doesn't want the Elites coming back like Germany did. She wants the problem solved for good. Killing all the Elites IS an option, and it's one that would prevent the Elites from rising again. That's a fact. If the Elites were extinct, they can't rise up. Do I agree with that? No. Is it a permanent solution? Yes. Maggie and Hood both want what's best for humanity. Neither of them want a repeat of the Human-Covenant war. Maggie has just decided to go down a much darker route. [Edited on 12.08.2012 4:08 PM PST]
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    SOME GUY789

    SOME GUY789

    12/8/2012 5:53:46 AM Permalink
    [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] anton1792 So why is there not a single element of their society that does?[/quote] Actually the Arbiter respects Humans and tends to lean toward that position.
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    MendicantBill

    MendicantBill

    12/8/2012 4:04:02 AM Permalink
    [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] anton1792 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Darthbill99 those people are in denial. Everyone knew that worlds were falling left and right.[/quote] No evidence to suggest this. Meanwhile, the Halo Graphic Novel sitting right next to me says that they had no idea what is truly going on thanks to ONI Section 2. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Darthbill99 but I can certainly say that I can relate to their feelings.[/quote] I doubt you would relate to the feeling of allowing children to suffer, no matter what the species. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Darthbill99 And the Elites should feel bad, they just nearly wiped out an entire species of sentient being with lives and families, that did absolutely nothing to provoke them. [/quote] So why is there not a single element of their society that does?[/quote]Are you arguing that the Elites shouldn't feel bad for what they did? They were lied to and misled by the prophets but that doesn't wash the blood from their hands. Personally, I think that many elites are condemning humanity in order to absolve themselves of the guilt of having committed a merciless genocide. As for the rest, I didn't read the graphic novel, so you may be right, but regardless, the characters that portray the feelings of hatred towards the elites did know the full extent of their crimes, and I can understand their hatred. I don't agree with it, and find it very hypocritical, but I can understand it. [Edited on 12.07.2012 8:12 PM PST]
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    anton1792

    anton1792

    12/7/2012 10:28:01 PM Permalink
    [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Darthbill99 those people are in denial. Everyone knew that worlds were falling left and right.[/quote] No evidence to suggest this. Meanwhile, the Halo Graphic Novel sitting right next to me says that they had no idea what is truly going on thanks to ONI Section 2. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Darthbill99 but I can certainly say that I can relate to their feelings.[/quote] I doubt you would relate to the feeling of allowing children to suffer, no matter what the species. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Darthbill99 And the Elites should feel bad, they just nearly wiped out an entire species of sentient being with lives and families, that did absolutely nothing to provoke them. [/quote] So why is there not a single element of their society that does?
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    MendicantBill

    MendicantBill

    12/7/2012 9:57:33 PM Permalink
    [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] anton1792 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Darthbill99 After decades of genocide and death at the hands of the elites, who can say you would feel any different?[/quote] That presupposes that I know how bad it was, or that I even knew it was taking place though. The war's impact was hidden well enough for people to say things like these on at least Earth: "-could flatten 'em - but we're too concerned with the rights of sentient -" "We should be negotiating with the Covenant" "It's Human expansionism that causes this whole resentment" They were completely ignorant of the reality of the situation. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Darthbill99 and for the most part they don't even seem to feel bad about it.[/quote] They should.[/quote]those people are in denial. Everyone knew that worlds were falling left and right. Humanity was nearly driven to extinction by the elites, and if I were them I would feel great resentment. I'm not saying that I agree with ONI and Vaz, quite the contrary, but I can certainly say that I can relate to their feelings. And the Elites should feel bad, they just nearly wiped out an entire species of sentient being with lives and families, that did absolutely nothing to provoke them.
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    anton1792

    anton1792

    12/7/2012 8:08:23 PM Permalink
    [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Darthbill99 After decades of genocide and death at the hands of the elites, who can say you would feel any different?[/quote] That presupposes that I know how bad it was, or that I even knew it was taking place though. The war's impact was hidden well enough for people to say things like these on at least Earth: "-could flatten 'em - but we're too concerned with the rights of sentient -" "We should be negotiating with the Covenant" "It's Human expansionism that causes this whole resentment" They were completely ignorant of the reality of the situation. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Darthbill99 and for the most part they don't even seem to feel bad about it.[/quote] They should.
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    Jonyxer
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    OrderedComa

    OrderedComa

    12/7/2012 5:32:29 PM Permalink
    [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] ROBERTO jh The good guys do have a say. Play a game or read a book from the past ten years and you'll see what they have to say. The purpose of Kilo-Five is to reinforce that not everyone is friendly as Halo 3 would have us believe, not everyone agrees, and no one is completely in the right (you know, like in real life). The good guys are still represented in the books, but are kept for minor rolls because there are other important manners they have to cover first. There can only be so much.[/quote] If that's what helps you sleep at night :P That is exactly why the whole Trashlands Trilogy is such a god awful book (besides Traviss deciding her views are the only ones and are completely right while everyone else and the previously established lore/canon is wrong), the fact that is does not acknowledge any other presence than the ones expressed by the characters. None of what you listed is talked about or shown at all, it's completely ignored because in Traviss and 343i's non-canon little perversion on Halo, none of it exists. Both sides of anything in a book need to be given a presence, that doesn't mean giving them a spot as a point of view character or even making them a hugely major character, it just means having them present at some points and/or talked about. If you just present one view and that one alone, the story becomes one-dimensional and poorly developed. That was one of the main reasons for Ackerson existing besides providing minor conflict, to present a view other than what the protagonists think and their opinions. Or in Harry Potter for instance, the characters from the Ministry of Magic, with the exception of Dolores Umbridge, who don't believe Voldemort has returned are all good guys, they clearly want to get rid of the Death Eaters and share the same overall goals as the good guys, but they don't agree with the protagonists on plenty of issues. In order to have depth, more than one side needs to be present, which Trashlands completely lacked. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Spartan1995324 Maggie's tactics are understandable. Practical even. Take them out now, and never worry about them again. I however prefer Hood's plan, I can certainly see where Maggie is coming from.[/quote] Hardly, they're the tactics of someone who's a completely mad and gone senile. There is no sense to it, if Maggot Parangosky was really that worried about humanity she would be working with the government and supporting the Arbiter's forces, instead, all she wants is revenge to satisfy her petty and spiteful nature. She just wants all Elites gone, not because they're a threat (because they aren't), but because she wants revenge and thinks that she knows better than anyone else. There's nothing practical about it, in fact, Parangosky's plan is very juvenile and the equivalent of two little kids fighting on the playground. Parangosky's whole attitude is the same as going, "you hit me, so I'm going to hit you back harder and them I'm going to go kick your whole family". It's good you don't take psycho--blam!-'s side, but there's nothing to see where Parangosky is coming from except insanity and raving lunacy.
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    MendicantBill

    MendicantBill

    12/7/2012 4:46:57 AM Permalink
    [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] ROBERTO jh [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Darthbill99 After decades of genocide and death at the hands of the elites, who can say you would feel any different? Many of these elites piloted ships that burned entire worlds filled with innocent civilians, and for the most part they don't even seem to feel bad about it. Anyway, ONI's actions, and Vaz's strawman beliefs do not represent all of humanity, not even all of the UNSC. Earth is even accepting ex-Covenant refugees as of six months after Halo 4. One of the biggest gripes I have with Kilo-Five is that it only shows the PoV of the -blam!-s: ONI, and the elite separatists. The good guys don't ever get a say. [/quote] The good guys do have a say. Play a game or read a book from the past ten years and you'll see what they have to say. The purpose of Kilo-Five is to reinforce that not everyone is friendly as Halo 3 would have us believe, not everyone agrees, and no one is completely in the right (you know, like in real life). The good guys are still represented in the books, but are kept for minor rolls because there are other important manners they have to cover first. There can only be so much.[/quote]We have yet to see the perspective of any of the good guys post war. I get your point about the theme of moral complexity, but honestly all it does is make me hate all the main characters and make it look like all the elites and humans are scheming bastards. It's annoying.
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    Manny

    Manny

    12/7/2012 4:21:09 AM Permalink
    [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] TedToaster22 I want to see Maggie scheming it up with Osman through communications, only for Lord Hood to burst in, karate chop her in the neck, and shout "REMEMBER WHO DA MAN 'ROUND HERE!"[/quote]GET BACK IN THE KITCHEN GRANDMA!
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    TedToaster22

    TedToaster22

    12/7/2012 4:01:17 AM Permalink
    I want to see Maggie scheming it up with Osman through communications, only for Lord Hood to burst in, karate chop her in the neck, and shout "REMEMBER WHO DA MAN 'ROUND HERE!"
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    Manny

    Manny

    12/7/2012 3:38:26 AM Permalink
    [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] fsabran Am i the only one who would have folowed Maggie's example but without all the Halsey's hate, it was only logical, even if a new covenant wasnt formed and the arbiter got hold of shangeilios, in a few decades when everyone was back in one piece, there would be a new system, there would be a new power strugle to see who controled the galaxy, and there would be war, just like the insurectionist war, but on a galatic scale, and what's the best way to avoid that, destroy your oponents, create weapons to criple them, prepare an arsenal and guarante humanity's superiority agaisnt those them xenos, LONG LIVE HUMANITY! LONG LIVE THE GOD EMPEROR![/quote]Maggie's tactics are understandable. Practical even. Take them out now, and never worry about them again. I however prefer Hood's plan, I can certainly see where Maggie is coming from.
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    Manny

    Manny

    12/7/2012 3:35:48 AM Permalink
    [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Dragonzzilla Crap, if I was given the choice to serve alongside the elites or the Didact with me and my family protected from their campaign, I would join them! Why? Because I just finished reading Thursday War. Humans have become major -blam!-s after the Human Covenant War... I understand the need to secure and keep an eye on your former enemy. But having thoughts of glassing Sanghelios? Hatching plans to biological sabotage what little food the elites can grow? Not to mention have them fight among each other in petty war!? I thought humanity would be better than this but I guess not. Sign me up, you xenophobic warlords.[/quote]Implying we were ever an "honorable" or decent species to begin with.
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    fsabran

    fsabran

    12/7/2012 3:27:06 AM Permalink
    [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] DecepticonCobra So basically genocide done on humanity because ONI wants to commit genocide on the Elites to prevent another possible genocide by the Elites like the one they committed in the Human-Covenant War is fine to you? Would you prefer the term Stalinite or Hitlerite good sir? Neither ONI or Jul or the Didact are in the right...but hey I guess mass murder is fine for you.[/quote]Yep, thats right kill those xeno bastards! But seriouly, call me all you want, but i would have done it, maybe not kill all of them, but at least criple their society so that they woulndt be a threat to humanity. [Edited on 12.06.2012 7:30 PM PST]
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    ROBERTO jh

    ROBERTO jh

    12/7/2012 1:10:09 AM Permalink
    [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Darthbill99 After decades of genocide and death at the hands of the elites, who can say you would feel any different? Many of these elites piloted ships that burned entire worlds filled with innocent civilians, and for the most part they don't even seem to feel bad about it. Anyway, ONI's actions, and Vaz's strawman beliefs do not represent all of humanity, not even all of the UNSC. Earth is even accepting ex-Covenant refugees as of six months after Halo 4. One of the biggest gripes I have with Kilo-Five is that it only shows the PoV of the -blam!-s: ONI, and the elite separatists. The good guys don't ever get a say. [/quote] The good guys do have a say. Play a game or read a book from the past ten years and you'll see what they have to say. The purpose of Kilo-Five is to reinforce that not everyone is friendly as Halo 3 would have us believe, not everyone agrees, and no one is completely in the right (you know, like in real life). The good guys are still represented in the books, but are kept for minor rolls because there are other important manners they have to cover first. There can only be so much.
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