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Dounut520

Dounut520

10/9/2012 11:17:33 PM
Well the question is simple; are you a UNSC loyalist or a rebel? Me: I'm an Innie. I just think that their cause is a bit more just than the UNSC's. Not that I like the fact that some hotheads set off some nukes killing millions. But it really comes down to this; Freedom to the people on how to govern their own system/planet, or an inter-galactic democracy that isn't really a democracy for anyone but the inner colonies. :/ [Edited on 10.09.2012 3:18 PM PDT]

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    Kenger Benger
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    Vicex
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    Mr Entropy

    Mr Entropy

    10/14/2012 12:38:23 AM Permalink
    That "democracy that isn't really a democracy" is the only reason the human race continues to exist as a result of the war with the Covenant. If we're picking teams, I'm joining the winning team.
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    Gamer Whale

    Gamer Whale

    10/13/2012 10:50:50 PM Permalink
    Loyalist, and besides, the colonies had significant self-rule anyway. [Edited on 10.13.2012 2:51 PM PDT]
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    Gottalovec4

    Gottalovec4

    10/13/2012 10:22:59 PM Permalink
    Loyalist. There is nothing to suggest that independent colony rule would work. Eventually everything would simply fall apart and the colonies would break down into war with one another. It's what nearly happened with the Articles of Confederacy, it's what lead to a weak Confederate States of America in the Civil War, and it's what would happen to independent colonies.
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    Catsn

    Catsn

    10/13/2012 7:02:56 PM Permalink
    I'm kind of on the ropes about this... In some ways I'd be a Loyalist, but in other ways I'd be an Innie.
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    Snake Archer

    Snake Archer

    10/12/2012 12:53:33 PM Permalink
    I guess on paper I'm a loyalist, the colonies are stronger together than they are apart. That being said the UNSC had screwed a lot of the newer colonies over - humans simply expanded too quickly. I see the Insurrectionists reasoning, but during the Covenant war disagreements should have been set aside, you don't need a war on two fronts.
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    MendicantBill
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    Manny

    Manny

    10/11/2012 9:26:23 PM Permalink
    [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] OrderedComa [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Spartan1995324 [quote]Eridanus Secundus[/quote][/quote] Actually they had to force them to help as the group there initially tried to drive them away and scare them off...though both sides were actually bluffing. And Governor Jiles (the guy running the asteroid base(s) there) and his men certainly didn't willingly give them help or a warm welcome at all, things were tense and rather hostile in attitude the whole time. The "Innies" there weren't at all friendly even though they did do their best to help the [i]Ascendant Justice-Gettysburg[/i] crew out. And Governor Jiles actually called his people working on the ship out, he didn't make any requests to evacuate, they wanted to stay there and not go back to the UNSC. And when the crew did leave, Whitcomb felt bad about having to do it, here 's quote for you (this might wind up being redundant if Daefaron posts first), from page 338 of First Strike (though really you should read everything right around there as there's a lot more than this one I'm giving, like Whitcomb talking about how he'd rather stay and die fighting and kill off the Covenant who'd come there, which is just the most important one), ""Hundreds for billions," the Admiral whispered, "Duty be damned...I'm still going to burn in hell for this." Admiral Whitcomb inhaled deeply and closed his eyes. "Go Cortana. Get us out of here. And God forgive me."[/quote]They didn't offer at all though. A "noble" organization would have at LEAST made the offer. I'll go back and read it again though. It's been a while, so I'll go to my local library. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] OrderedComa [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Spartan1995324 [quote]UNSC/UEG/ONI[/quote][/quote] Actually I believe things are still in transition between the UNSC and the UEG, the UEG is starting to come back into authority and power, but it's still a transitional state, imo and from what we know. And actually the UNSC had started to be the government and granted some emergency powers when the Insurrectionist started up all of their -blam!-. UNSC High Command and ONI Section 3 were what created the Spartan II Program. And no, ONI goes down alone, the UNSC is not involved in most of their crap, and until Glasslands and the -blam!- and false interpretations of Karen Travissty came along, ONI wasn't really corrupt at all, they were like any other government intelligence agency and actually trying to do their actual job and not doing stuff jut "for the evulz and -blam!-z and giggles", stuff like the Mona Lisa were rogue elements that were all dealt with as they came up like they are in the real world when rogue elements crop up in real life intelligence agencies, the whole branch isn't disbanded and gutted because of a small group going rogue and creating an unsanctioned project or perverting a sanctioned one and abusing their power with it (such as like with the Bourne movies/series).[/quote]Stuff like the Mona Lisa were rogue, so WHY NOT ruin ONI by exposing them to public? WHY NOT tell the public that ONI had kidnapped their children? WHY NOT get rid of this pain in the neck that keeps doing stuff you don't want them to? Oh wait, because the UNSC was involved, or at least High Command like you said. High Command is running the show, so they make the calls. The expose ONI, ONI does the same to High Command. High Command won't do it because they're at risk. If they weren't, they would have exposed ONI a LONG time ago. It's mutual "survival". They would both be in deep trouble, and as I said it might swing the public's favour towards the Insurrection. What's stopping them from exposing ONI for what they are? After all, they are "noble". [Edited on 10.11.2012 3:19 PM PDT]
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    Manny

    Manny

    10/11/2012 9:25:49 PM Permalink
    [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] OrderedComa [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Spartan1995324 Comparison to American Revolution[/quote] I have never seen that once, and I've pretty much seen everything that's ever been released concerning the Insurrection. So where are you pulling this from? And no, they are not a rebel army, not once do they send a proper force against the UNSC, it's all terrorist attacks and hit and run attacks...not once do the Innies ever have anything remotely resembling a proper army. They are semi-independent terrorist cells, nothing even resembling an army in the least.[/quote]What about the United Rebel Front? They were in the process of forming an army. So yes, it was there. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] OrderedComa Far Isle is hardly evidence of anything...we know a whopping grand total of nothing at all about it other than it happened. I'm sorely tempted to not even respond to this one because we know so little about it. All we do know is an armed uprising broke out that couldn't be contained, and the two cities wound up getting nuked, and that's it. [/quote]You claim that nothing is known about Far Isle and then go ahead and say only two cities were nuked? Don't twist what IS known, which is that the whole colony was nuked. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] OrderedComa And again, the Rubble are different, they're hardly even Insurrectionists, they took the right approach, they weren't getting what they wanted, so rather than resorting to violence or attacking the UNSC (that we know of, we don't know too much about what they did before the Covenant passed by Madrigal), they up and left and formed their own little place away from the UNSC where they could run things their own little way...and even so, they couldn't completely run things their own way as they had to cater to the now homeless people who supported the the UNSC that they took in...in any case though, the Rubble, with the exceptions of a few people like that one council member consorting with Reth and the Jackals and shipping Truth's altered weapons into the Innie cells still within the UNSC, are an example of the right sorts, and they aren't even really Insurrectionists in my book, or like the group that gal Cole was dating at one point her group only attacked the actual military and eventually they just up and left.[/quote]So the reasonable Innies are conviently NOT Innies in YOUR book? In the canon they are described as part of the Insurrectionists. The canon is superior to what you choose to label them as. Anyways I'm sure we both agree that the Innies at the Rubble had the right idea. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] OrderedComa They were the same in the beginning, and then the people who were having the negotiations with the UNSC (there was no proper Insurrectionist movement at that point, just groups dissatisfied with the UNSC and wanting to fix or change things up), the moderates and "normals" of the dissident groups, swung back around to the UNSC once the terrorist attacks started, they put things on hold and stood off on the side lines, or they got enough together and left to create places like the Rubble....though actually IIRC, the Rubble was originally an outpost of the groups launching attacks >_> Anyways, they put their goals on hold once the actual Insurrectionists started up their -blam!-. [i]All[/i] of the Insurrectionists [i]were[/i] attacking the UNSC or butchering civilians, that's what the Insurrection was, they might have had the same issues as people who were dissatisfied with UNSC rule, but they're not the same thing or groups, the Insurrectionists are [i]only[/i] the groups working or a part of the groups launching the terrorist attacks, those are the only guys I consider Insurrectionists, the ones actually attacking and committing other acts of violence.[/quote]This isn't about you. It's about the canon. All Innies, good or bad, are part of the Insurrection. You can't dismiss what good there was as "they aren't REAL Innies", and then go on to judge every single one based on the actions of the violent groups. That's like classifying all Arabs as terrorists because of the terrorist groups over in the Middle East. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] OrderedComa Brush up on your history pal, the 13 Colonies actually didn't want a new and completely different government, not at first, not until they knew without a doubt that the King wasn't going to cooperate with them at all and was just going to continue to make things worse. They wanted more rights and representation, separating from England and declaring independence was an absolute last resort. [/quote]So as you said... The beginning of the Insurrection was about peaceful talks. Negations because they were overtaxed, like the colonies. More representation was also a goal of the Innies because the Inner Colonies had all the political power. Only when the UNSC, or king in the colonists' case, refused to agree did things start to get violent. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] OrderedComa In any case, as I said above, the Rubble changed because of being an amalgam of those who were always loyal to the UNSC and the group that founded it and were originally Insurrectionists. It shifted from being actual Insurrectionists to just a small group trying to scrape by and survive on their own. [/quote] You don't define who are Innies. The canon does. The people on the Rubble had Innie goals in mind. They made UNSC military personnel swallow pills so that Juilana, the smart A.I, could track their movements. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] OrderedComa UNSC gets on fine with the Covenant Separatists...ONI is the only problem, and they are acting on their own and their actions are not in the least sanctioned by the UEG or UNSC. [/quote]The UNSC and Separatists are fine now? There doesn't seem to be too many Elites that support the Arbiter... meaning they still want to wipe out the Humans. From what I hear, the Thursday War portrays the majority of Elites as wanting the humans gone. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] OrderedComa Hood, and by extension the rest of the government, as a matter of fact, wants peace with the Separatists and to try and forge some kind of working relationship with them. [/quote]Yeah we all know what HOOD wants, but one man does not have the same opinion as anyone else. Humans are not a hivemind. And if EVERYONE in the UNSC had to bow down to Hood's opinions... That would be more Facist than democratic. I know it's a military, but they are now the government (by necessity because I doubt anyone really wanted them in power). [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] OrderedComa And we don't know anything at all about alien relations on Venezia...to me it just sounds like business dealings and that's it, Venezia tolerates Kig-Yar and Jiralhanae living there because they're providing them with Covenant tech and illegally obtained UNSC tech from the black market. But in any case, again, we don't know anything at all about it other than some are there in a business capacity like the Kig-Yar at the Rubble.[/quote]Again you use the statement "to me". This is about what is. The fact that they are even co-existing, for whatever reason, is pretty amazing. There is no proof to say that they are solely in it for the money. Even if they were, isn't that what most nations do anyways? They enter business dealings and become friendly with other nations because it suits them. Just the interaction between the groups can break down barriers, and even more so for later generations. What has the UNSC done? Not much, except create a "demon" amry. Smart in terms of their military, not so smart with trying to put the aliens at ease. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] OrderedComa [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Spartan1995324 [quote]Innies Being Threat to Human Race[/quote][/quote] I think you need to read up on the Insurrection bub, like really read up on them. They were a threat to the whole human race, the report that Halsey read (and the research she then conducted independently and completely on her own after reading the report) and what was what convinced her to accept ONI's proposal/request of heading up the Spartan Program stated that if things kept going as they were and if the Insurrectionists weren't stopped they'd knock humanity into a second Dark Age and an incalculable number of the human race would be left dead in its wake. And where is your source for them not stopping? Because from all indications they certainly didn't have any intentions of ever cutting it out, [i][b][u]especially[/u][/b][/i] since the various Innie cells focused on every single planet they could attack and not just their own, they were in it to destroy the whole UNSC.[/quote]History has shown the rebels who fight for the independance of their colony don't go out and seek to destroy the empire afterwards. The Innies probably couldn't either way. MAYBE one or two planets get freed, but so what? The UNSC is still a military powerhouse who can't be matched (in the Human world). There's a whole other thread about why the Spartan program really isn't that great (morally). They are tools the UNSC use to get their way. Do they go onto do greater things? Yes, but I'm talking about their purpose.
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    OrderedComa

    OrderedComa

    10/11/2012 5:30:02 AM Permalink
    [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Spartan1995324 Comparison to American Revolution[/quote] I have never seen that once, and I've pretty much seen everything that's ever been released concerning the Insurrection. So where are you pulling this from? And no, they are not a rebel army, not once do they send a proper force against the UNSC, it's all terrorist attacks and hit and run attacks...not once do the Innies ever have anything remotely resembling a proper army. They are semi-independent terrorist cells, nothing even resembling an army in the least. Far Isle is hardly evidence of anything...we know a whopping grand total of nothing at all about it other than it happened. I'm sorely tempted to not even respond to this one because we know so little about it. All we do know is an armed uprising broke out that couldn't be contained, and the two cities wound up getting nuked, and that's it. And again, the Rubble are different, they're hardly even Insurrectionists, they took the right approach, they weren't getting what they wanted, so rather than resorting to violence or attacking the UNSC (that we know of, we don't know too much about what they did before the Covenant passed by Madrigal), they up and left and formed their own little place away from the UNSC where they could run things their own little way...and even so, they couldn't completely run things their own way as they had to cater to the now homeless people who supported the the UNSC that they took in...in any case though, the Rubble, with the exceptions of a few people like that one council member consorting with Reth and the Jackals and shipping Truth's altered weapons into the Innie cells still within the UNSC, are an example of the right sorts, and they aren't even really Insurrectionists in my book, or like the group that gal Cole was dating at one point her group only attacked the actual military and eventually they just up and left. They were the same in the beginning, and then the people who were having the negotiations with the UNSC (there was no proper Insurrectionist movement at that point, just groups dissatisfied with the UNSC and wanting to fix or change things up), the moderates and "normals" of the dissident groups, swung back around to the UNSC once the terrorist attacks started, they put things on hold and stood off on the side lines, or they got enough together and left to create places like the Rubble....though actually IIRC, the Rubble was originally an outpost of the groups launching attacks >_> Anyways, they put their goals on hold once the actual Insurrectionists started up their -blam!-. [i]All[/i] of the Insurrectionists [i]were[/i] attacking the UNSC or butchering civilians, that's what the Insurrection was, they might have had the same issues as people who were dissatisfied with UNSC rule, but they're not the same thing or groups, the Insurrectionists are [i]only[/i] the groups working or a part of the groups launching the terrorist attacks, those are the only guys I consider Insurrectionists, the ones actually attacking and committing other acts of violence. Brush up on your history pal, the 13 Colonies actually didn't want a new and completely different government, not at first, not until they knew without a doubt that the King wasn't going to cooperate with them at all and was just going to continue to make things worse. They wanted more rights and representation, separating from England and declaring independence was an absolute last resort. In any case, as I said above, the Rubble changed because of being an amalgam of those who were always loyal to the UNSC and the group that founded it and were originally Insurrectionists. It shifted from being actual Insurrectionists to just a small group trying to scrape by and survive on their own. UNSC gets on fine with the Covenant Separatists...ONI is the only problem, and they are acting on their own and their actions are not in the least sanctioned by the UEG or UNSC. Hood, and by extension the rest of the government, as a matter of fact, wants peace with the Separatists and to try and forge some kind of working relationship with them. And we don't know anything at all about alien relations on Venezia...to me it just sounds like business dealings and that's it, Venezia tolerates Kig-Yar and Jiralhanae living there because they're providing them with Covenant tech and illegally obtained UNSC tech from the black market. But in any case, again, we don't know anything at all about it other than some are there in a business capacity like the Kig-Yar at the Rubble. [quote]Innies Being Threat to Human Race[/quote] I think you need to read up on the Insurrection bub, like really read up on them. They were a threat to the whole human race, the report that Halsey read (and the research she then conducted independently and completely on her own after reading the report) and what was what convinced her to accept ONI's proposal/request of heading up the Spartan Program stated that if things kept going as they were and if the Insurrectionists weren't stopped they'd knock humanity into a second Dark Age and an incalculable number of the human race would be left dead in its wake. And where is your source for them not stopping? Because from all indications they certainly didn't have any intentions of ever cutting it out, [i][b][u]especially[/u][/b][/i] since the various Innie cells focused on every single planet they could attack and not just their own, they were in it to destroy the whole UNSC. [quote]Eridanus Secundus[/quote] Actually they had to force them to help as the group there initially tried to drive them away and scare them off...though both sides were actually bluffing. And Governor Jiles (the guy running the asteroid base(s) there) and his men certainly didn't willingly give them help or a warm welcome at all, things were tense and rather hostile in attitude the whole time. The "Innies" there weren't at all friendly even though they did do their best to help the [i]Ascendant Justice-Gettysburg[/i] crew out. And Governor Jiles actually called his people working on the ship out, he didn't make any requests to evacuate, they wanted to stay there and not go back to the UNSC. And when the crew did leave, Whitcomb felt bad about having to do it, here 's quote for you (this might wind up being redundant if Daefaron posts first), from page 338 of First Strike (though really you should read everything right around there as there's a lot more than this one I'm giving, like Whitcomb talking about how he'd rather stay and die fighting and kill off the Covenant who'd come there, which is just the most important one), ""Hundreds for billions," the Admiral whispered, "Duty be damned...I'm still going to burn in hell for this." Admiral Whitcomb inhaled deeply and closed his eyes. "Go Cortana. Get us out of here. And God forgive me." [quote]UNSC/UEG/ONI[/quote] Actually I believe things are still in transition between the UNSC and the UEG, the UEG is starting to come back into authority and power, but it's still a transitional state, imo and from what we know. And actually the UNSC had started to be the government and granted some emergency powers when the Insurrectionist started up all of their -blam!-. UNSC High Command and ONI Section 3 were what created the Spartan II Program. And no, ONI goes down alone, the UNSC is not involved in most of their crap, and until Glasslands and the -blam!- and false interpretations of Karen Travissty came along, ONI wasn't really corrupt at all, they were like any other government intelligence agency and actually trying to do their actual job and not doing stuff jut "for the evulz and -blam!-z and giggles", stuff like the Mona Lisa were rogue elements that were all dealt with as they came up like they are in the real world when rogue elements crop up in real life intelligence agencies, the whole branch isn't disbanded and gutted because of a small group going rogue and creating an unsanctioned project or perverting a sanctioned one and abusing their power with it (such as like with the Bourne movies/series).
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    haloplayer2kill

    haloplayer2kill

    10/11/2012 4:49:30 AM Permalink
    Not all Insurrectionists are evil, just like not all of members of the UNSC are good. I hope in a future halo game, the insurrection will be touched upon again. If that is the case, i hope we get to see insurrections who aren't evil terrorists trying to wipe out the UNSC with any means necessary.
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    Swiftkillswitch3

    Swiftkillswitch3

    10/11/2012 3:50:06 AM Permalink
    I bumped a war that the Flood would simply not be able to carry-out. I feel both good and bad at once.
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    Manny

    Manny

    10/11/2012 3:37:09 AM Permalink
    [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Cmdr DaeFaron[/quote]It's 11:49PM here. Just finished my essay and I'm going to sleep. I probably shouldn't have been debating this at the time, but it's done. I'll get back to you, that much I can guarantee. [Edited on 10.10.2012 8:49 PM PDT]
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    ThunderCavaler7

    ThunderCavaler7

    10/11/2012 3:24:18 AM Permalink
    Guys, no offense, but... both of these factions kinda suck. [b]UNSC[/b]: Statistical, efficiency-driven elitists whose primary concern is an optimum output at the cost of morality and self-government. The UNSC and ONI essentially are a police state where people are forced to cater for the mother planet (Earth) and are treated as second-class citizens. Humans on the Outer Colonies matter as much to the UNSC government as the villagers in a RTS matter to you, the player. They're there to fuel the economy and keep everything running, and you're only concerned when something's stopping the cash flow. They're not above an extreme measure in order to ensure the maximum gain at the most minimal of losses. The nuking of Far Rim, the Spartan-II Project, and even Cole Protocol recognize this. "The needs of the Many outweigh the needs of the Few." That quote from Spock is taken to an absurd extreme with the UNSC. Buuuuut... [b]Insurrectionists[/b]: Glory-hungry, arrogant jackasses whose self-serving motivation is to make themselves heard and known to humanity. Any type of 'noble' or 'just' cause they have is buried underneath the billions, maybe trillions of dollars in collateral damage and the millions of dead military personnel and civilians that they've made in order to make their big mark in the galaxy. I hate to compare them to something so petty, but they are essentially like Internet's Anonymous: A group of pompous attention-whores who sometimes have the right cause in mind, but are more concerned with being remembered rather than changing the world for the better. They'd save a planet if it caught someone's attention, and nuke it if it garnered even more. They have no concept of self-preservation, sustainability, or future aside from the short-term renown and fame. Honestly, I'm with the UNSC here, but only because their model, while cruel, does guarantee a future. While they were horribly outmatched against the Covenant and the timely schism of the Elites and the Prophets along with the remnants of the Spartan-II project barely squeezed a win for humanity in the Human-Covenant War, you have to realize that the UNSC made a lot of smart choices in stalling or delaying the Covenant while special projects like the Spartans focused on weaker, vulnerable parts of the Covenant infrastructure. If the Insurrectionists were in charge, they'd strap a bomb on every ship they could find and send them to High Charity in the vain hope that one of them explodes in Truth's face. No side is in the moral right here, but from an objective standpoint, the UNSC is arguably better.
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    Cmdr DaeFaron

    Cmdr DaeFaron

    10/11/2012 2:07:26 AM Permalink
    [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Spartan1995324 But the freedom... "Give me liberty or give me death"! Seriously though...[/quote] Freedom fighters and terrorists are different. Freedom fighters fight for a cause and stay true to it. The people rally to them because the government response is brutal. Terrorists (while freedom fighters are sometimes called that) kill civilians, use tactics of terror and really in the end don't care. These guys were murdering civilians left and right, what government would consider giving the bastards the terms they want? There is nothing to prove they won't continue the murders. Oh, and freedom fighters don't punish people for being in the other group. They don't drag civilians into the conflict. [quote]Incident 1: They need to send a message to the CMA. The CMA was the military branch of the CAA, which was taxing them heavily. The CAA wasn't listening to them. The UNSC themselves had to strip them of power because they didn't want to let go (during the Human-Covenant war).[/quote] So they murdered a large number of civilians, with only TWO CMA causalities. Seems like a fair trade for terrorists, not freedom fighters. [quote]Incident 2: Uncalled for good sir (the attack that is). Every organization does thing they shouldn't. All of them. However peaceful talks simply weren't getting anywhere. They got frustrated. I'd a like a source though, interesting stuff. There has to be a reason, like there was for incidents 1 and 3.[/quote] http://www.halopedia.org/National_Holiday You don't get to handwave frequent murders of civilians as "Oh they go frustrated so mass murder is excusable." compare to the -blam!- UNSC who has very few civilian murders on their plate. [quote]Incident 3: What did Cole do next? The Innies were probably going to let him live. They let UNSC military personnel live on the rubble, so why not let him live as well? Anyways, Cole just blasted the missles straight into their ship, abusing their willingness to have kept him alive rather than blasting the ship to pieces.[/quote] Given what they -blam!- did to the crew of the Callisto and the AI, I -blam!- doubt they would have let Cole and crew -blam!- live. At least not free. Recall that ALSO the UNSC were very -blam!- torn about outright giving a court-martial to Cole cause of that action as well. [quote]Incident 4: There has to be a reason. In a war somebody has to gain SOMETHING out of that. They wouldn't have wasted a nuclear weapon on that. I'd a like a source. However if they did it for no reason at all... then my response is the same as incident 2.[/quote] http://www.halopedia.org/Haven_arcology No reason at all. They just went "Hey, let's set off a -blam!- nuke causing countless civilian deaths and injuries." YOU DO NOT -blam!- HANDWAVE THAT -blam!-. [quote]Far Isle: The nuking didn't need to happen. Never did. Nukes to quell riots is overkill. No pun intended. They could have ended up like Venezia. Problem is... if the UNSC willingly had admmitted defeat, it would have boosted Insurrectionist morale. Not good for their empire, eh?[/quote] Failure to understand. There sometimes are arguments where the ONLY way to get the two sides to calm down is excessive force (Gun fired in the air, separating the two and having to literally fight them back) Not only is there -blam!- JACK -blam!- information on it, the implications are the situation went from bad to "Critical worse" quick, and there was not calming down. Either way, it's the ONLY -blam!- murder of civilians on the UNSC plate. vs the countless rebel caused civilian deaths. [quote]The Massarce: Conceeded good sir. There wasn't much they could have done...but the Rebels DID lend a hand. You got to give them that. Whitcomb however... [quote][url=http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/Massacre_at_Eridanus_Secundus]Whitcomb, feeling his duty was to Earth, not the rebels, ordered an immediate retreat to slipspace, leaving the helpless rebels to their doom.[/url][/quote]Doesn't seem too sorry to me. I would say he did smart/logical thing, so point conceeded. I wouldn't say he felt bad though. Soldiers who are willing to fight for their country do it becasue they feel it's their duty. They don't feel too bad about letting the enemy die.[/quote] As I recall (I have a friend looking up the scene when she gets her hands on her copy of the book), Whitcomb was saddened. Not to the point of tears (Who would be, the governor explicitly is stated to be arrogant and going "GIVE US OUR DEMANDS FIRST UNSC DESPITE HUMANITY BEING ON THE BRINK OF DEATH!"), but still sad that they had to sacrifice and couldn't save them. [quote]Inusrrectionists have proved that they can lead stable governments, like Venezia and the Rubble. In fact, history shows that a bunch of rebels formed some of the most powerful/influential nations on earth... About the Visegard incident...they helped evacuate Madrigal, and then formed the Rubble. So they did some good, AND get along far better with our former enemies. So reality they are establishing better diplomatic relations then the UNSC is. Look at Venezia.[/quote] Rubble: Existed with the Jackals because TRUTH -blam!- ordered the Jackals to work with the humans to get a copy of a human nav data, so they could wipe out everybody. It was not a peaceful situation. It was a facade. Venezia: We know little of it's leadership right now (as I recall), and oh yeah. THEY -blam!- REFUSED TO HELP A UNSC SHIP. A UNSC ship was in orbit, in dire situation, and the planet refused to let them -blam!- evac people to the surface until help came. The ship blew up, ALL HANDS LOST. When the response UNSC ship arrived THE BASTARDS FIRED ON THE SHIP. The rebels went "Nope, don't evac people that are going to die if they aren't away from the ship. Oh look, another unsc ship. FIRE!" Points to why the -blam!- the rebels make bad leaders. When given a chance to help out the UNSC, and possible IMPROVE relations (to the point of getting talks to be recognized as independent planet...) they let the UNSC people die for no reason. Ties to area directly below. If the UNSC are the bastards too scared to let go, then why did Venezia let an entire UNSC crew die that needed help? They were given a chance to do something good, and they did nothing. (The worst is they could have fired on the ship I'll give you that). [quote]Anways the UNSC as I said is too scared to let go. Where does fear lead? Let a wise little green alien answer that: "Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering." - Yoda, The Phantom Menance. And that is exactly what the UNSC is doing because they are too scared to let go. [i]Suffering[/i]. I answered your points. Extend the courtesy to answer mine? They are in another post.[/quote] Rebels feared the UNSC.(For unknown reasons) Rebels started getting angry. (For above unknown reasons, wanting more self-rule) Rebels started hating the UNSC. (to the point of fighting) Rebels starting mass murdering civilians, leading to suffering.
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    Manny

    Manny

    10/11/2012 1:35:18 AM Permalink
    [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] RKOSNAKE [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Spartan1995324 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] RKOSNAKE The Massacre at Eridanus Secundus...You mean that one instance were the Insurgents openly threatened to board the Gettysburg/Ascendant Justice straight away and had Cortana not fired the plasma turret at a nearby asteroid to scare them away, they would have done so? I just love how you people endorse the idea that Anarchy is alright in the Halo Universe or the real life at that, people fighting for their freedom by killing innocent people a la Al Qaeda? That's so noble! I mean, it's not like everybody hated Al Qaeda when they pulled the 9/11 incident, I mean, the document "Al-qaeda's strategy to the year 2020" sums up the insurrection: [quote]Provoke the United States and the West into invading a Muslim country by staging a massive attack or string of attacks on U.S. soil that results in massive civilian casualties.[/quote] All the bombings and terrorist attacks, most notably the ones at Haven Arcology and Reach. [quote]Incite local resistance to occupying forces.[/quote] Their modus operandi at outer colonies "The UNSC wants to repress us, we all need to rise up and become our own leaders!" [quote]Expand the conflict to neighboring countries, and engage the U.S. and its allies in a long war of attrition.[/quote] The insurrection moving to other colonies and continuing their efforts to grow. [quote]Convert al-Qaeda into an ideology and set of operating principles that can be loosely franchised in other countries without requiring direct command and control, and via these franchises incite attacks against the U.S. and countries allied with the U.S. until they withdraw from the conflict, as happened with the 2004 Madrid train bombings, but which did not have the same effect with the July 7, 2005 London bombings.[/quote] Converting whoever they can to their cause, like they did to Soren-066, manipulating him with the idea that the UNSC was bad, mainly because he wasn't being used, sweet talk, that is. [quote]The U.S. economy will finally collapse by the year 2020 under the strain of multiple engagements in numerous places, making the worldwide economic system which is dependent on the U.S. also collapse leading to global political instability, which in turn leads to a global jihad led by al-Qaeda and a Wahhabi Caliphate will then be installed across the world following the collapse of the U.S. and the rest of the Western world countries.[/quote] What they wanted the war to turn into eventually, having the UNSC collapse due to the lack of resources from the outer colonies. So, congratulations, you are supporting a terrorist ideology![/quote]Al-Qaeda means to start a war with the USA over religous reasons or simply because they hate the USA. The Insurrectionists are fighting to become an independant "nation", or planet in this case. Look at the FLQ in Quebec. While tiny, they are considered terrorists. Had they won, and Quebec been it's own country, they would have been seen as patriots. The majority of nations won their independance through violence. Nothing too different here. Most were seen as terrorists by the empire that ruled there.[/quote] So, if I want my estate to become independent of my country does that mean it is perfectly fine to do terrorist attacks like bombing highly-populated centers or using WMD's to force the government of my country to grant me and the rest of the state a country status on its own? That seems nice, I guess I will begin to stockpile my nukes on my backyard...[/quote]Well you'd probably be mercilessly gunned down by the US army anyways...The Innies are being shot down by the UNSC, so it'd be pretty similar. Anyways your method (violence) would not be different from other countries who have gained independance (Canada is a rare exception). However the weapons of today are far more dangerous than the weapons of yesterday, which is what makes the Innies a far more dangerous threat than any rebellion before it. Reply to your edit: Being a terrorist and patriot depends on who the victor of any war is. History is written by the victors they say. Jackals were under order by the Prophets. While not a smart move DURING the Human-Covenant War, living with them LATER (Venezia) is. The Innies are doing a better job at fostering diplomatic relations with Humanity's former enemies than the UNSC is. [Edited on 10.10.2012 5:44 PM PDT]
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    Manny

    Manny

    10/11/2012 1:33:06 AM Permalink
    [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] UrDoinItWrong I'm a Dictatorist. Bring the Third Reich into Halo. Do it now. :D[/quote]Fourth Reich technically... which means Fourth Empire. Which is technically UNSC controlled space...
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    RKOSNAKE

    RKOSNAKE

    10/11/2012 1:32:50 AM Permalink
    [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Spartan1995324 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] RKOSNAKE The Massacre at Eridanus Secundus...You mean that one instance were the Insurgents openly threatened to board the Gettysburg/Ascendant Justice straight away and had Cortana not fired the plasma turret at a nearby asteroid to scare them away, they would have done so? I just love how you people endorse the idea that Anarchy is alright in the Halo Universe or the real life at that, people fighting for their freedom by killing innocent people a la Al Qaeda? That's so noble! I mean, it's not like everybody hated Al Qaeda when they pulled the 9/11 incident, I mean, the document "Al-qaeda's strategy to the year 2020" sums up the insurrection: [quote]Provoke the United States and the West into invading a Muslim country by staging a massive attack or string of attacks on U.S. soil that results in massive civilian casualties.[/quote] All the bombings and terrorist attacks, most notably the ones at Haven Arcology and Reach. [quote]Incite local resistance to occupying forces.[/quote] Their modus operandi at outer colonies "The UNSC wants to repress us, we all need to rise up and become our own leaders!" [quote]Expand the conflict to neighboring countries, and engage the U.S. and its allies in a long war of attrition.[/quote] The insurrection moving to other colonies and continuing their efforts to grow. [quote]Convert al-Qaeda into an ideology and set of operating principles that can be loosely franchised in other countries without requiring direct command and control, and via these franchises incite attacks against the U.S. and countries allied with the U.S. until they withdraw from the conflict, as happened with the 2004 Madrid train bombings, but which did not have the same effect with the July 7, 2005 London bombings.[/quote] Converting whoever they can to their cause, like they did to Soren-066, manipulating him with the idea that the UNSC was bad, mainly because he wasn't being used, sweet talk, that is. [quote]The U.S. economy will finally collapse by the year 2020 under the strain of multiple engagements in numerous places, making the worldwide economic system which is dependent on the U.S. also collapse leading to global political instability, which in turn leads to a global jihad led by al-Qaeda and a Wahhabi Caliphate will then be installed across the world following the collapse of the U.S. and the rest of the Western world countries.[/quote] What they wanted the war to turn into eventually, having the UNSC collapse due to the lack of resources from the outer colonies. So, congratulations, you are supporting a terrorist ideology![/quote]Al-Qaeda means to start a war with the USA over religous reasons or simply because they hate the USA. The Insurrectionists are fighting to become an independant "nation", or planet in this case. Look at the FLQ in Quebec. While tiny, they are considered terrorists. Had they won, and Quebec been it's own country, they would have been seen as patriots. The majority of nations won their independance through violence. Nothing too different here. Most were seen as terrorists by the empire that ruled there.[/quote] So, if I want my estate to become independent of my country does that mean it is perfectly fine to do terrorist attacks like bombing highly-populated centers or using WMD's to force the government of my country to grant me and the rest of the state a country status on its own? That seems nice, I guess I will begin to stockpile my nukes on my backyard... If they wanted to become independent they should have done so with peaceful terms. There's a difference between fighting for your freedom and being a terrorist, unless you count the instance when an insurgent activated a bomb inside a diner full of innocents, and even then she used a little kid as a meat shield. Also, the Jackals at the Rubble were giving modified Covenant weapons to the insurgents...wonder why. [Edited on 10.10.2012 5:37 PM PDT]
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    Manny

    Manny

    10/11/2012 1:28:12 AM Permalink
    [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] RKOSNAKE The Massacre at Eridanus Secundus...You mean that one instance were the Insurgents openly threatened to board the Gettysburg/Ascendant Justice straight away and had Cortana not fired the plasma turret at a nearby asteroid to scare them away, they would have done so? I just love how you people endorse the idea that Anarchy is alright in the Halo Universe or the real life at that, people fighting for their freedom by killing innocent people a la Al Qaeda? That's so noble! I mean, it's not like everybody hated Al Qaeda when they pulled the 9/11 incident, I mean, the document "Al-qaeda's strategy to the year 2020" sums up the insurrection: [quote]Provoke the United States and the West into invading a Muslim country by staging a massive attack or string of attacks on U.S. soil that results in massive civilian casualties.[/quote] All the bombings and terrorist attacks, most notably the ones at Haven Arcology and Reach. [quote]Incite local resistance to occupying forces.[/quote] Their modus operandi at outer colonies "The UNSC wants to repress us, we all need to rise up and become our own leaders!" [quote]Expand the conflict to neighboring countries, and engage the U.S. and its allies in a long war of attrition.[/quote] The insurrection moving to other colonies and continuing their efforts to grow. [quote]Convert al-Qaeda into an ideology and set of operating principles that can be loosely franchised in other countries without requiring direct command and control, and via these franchises incite attacks against the U.S. and countries allied with the U.S. until they withdraw from the conflict, as happened with the 2004 Madrid train bombings, but which did not have the same effect with the July 7, 2005 London bombings.[/quote] Converting whoever they can to their cause, like they did to Soren-066, manipulating him with the idea that the UNSC was bad, mainly because he wasn't being used, sweet talk, that is. [quote]The U.S. economy will finally collapse by the year 2020 under the strain of multiple engagements in numerous places, making the worldwide economic system which is dependent on the U.S. also collapse leading to global political instability, which in turn leads to a global jihad led by al-Qaeda and a Wahhabi Caliphate will then be installed across the world following the collapse of the U.S. and the rest of the Western world countries.[/quote] What they wanted the war to turn into eventually, having the UNSC collapse due to the lack of resources from the outer colonies. So, congratulations, you are supporting a terrorist ideology![/quote]Al-Qaeda means to start a war with the USA over religous reasons or simply because they hate the USA. The Insurrectionists are fighting to become an independant "nation", or planet in this case. Look at the FLQ in Quebec. While tiny, they are considered terrorists. Had they won, and Quebec been it's own country, they would have been seen as patriots. The majority of nations won their independance through violence. Nothing too different here. Most were seen as terrorists by the empire that ruled there. [Edited on 10.10.2012 5:28 PM PDT]
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    Manny

    Manny

    10/11/2012 1:24:25 AM Permalink
    [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Cmdr DaeFaron [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Cmdr DaeFaron [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Spartan1995324 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] DarkestSeptagon [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Quantam Innies killed millions of people, often for no reason whatsoever. UNSC![/quote][url=http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/Far_Isle]Read up.[/url][/quote]Show that poor deluded soul the truth...[/quote] Here is the truth about your "good guy" rebels. Not a few hotheads, the bulk of the ones publically known. [quote]In 2525, an insurrectionist attack on a nightclub resulted in the deaths of a number of innocent civilians as well as one Colonial Military Administration pilot, sending another into a coma.[/quote] [quote]The liner was attacked in 2524 by two unmanned orbital taxis sent by a human Insurrectionist organization above the planet Reach. The liner was just completing its load-in of more than 1,500 civilian passengers on a charter tour departing for Arcadia. Unfortunately, due to the amount of explosives that were packed into the two taxis and the ensuing explosion, the National Holiday was unable to get far enough away and was subsequently torn in half. The captain, while unable to maneuver, calmly directed other ships out of the path of the National Holiday before it dropped into the atmosphere of Reach, burning up the liner and killing all crew, personnel and passengers. The explosion was also large enough to burn away the hull paint of every other ship within a two kilometer radius. [/quote] [quote]Callisto boarded another merchant vessel. They were courteously allowed aboard; however, they found the cargo bay empty. The bay doors then opened and the boarding party was blasted into space. The merchant crew then swarmed into the Callisto, murdered the remainder of its crew, and gutted and replaced its computer system. On March 2, 2494, the battle group confronted the Callisto in the 26 Draconis System. The destroyers all fired six of their seven Ares missiles, and in response, the Insurrectionists maneuvered behind an asteroid, which it then detonated in the direction of the UNSC vessels using a nuclear warhead planted beforehand. The Buenos Aires was destroyed and the other two destroyers severely damaged. The entire bridge crew of the Las Vegas was killed or incapacitated, with the exception of Second Lieutenant Preston Cole, who was left unharmed. As the last remaining bridge officer, Cole took control of the Las Vegas. [/quote] [quote]On February 23, 2511, a member of the Freedom and Liberation Party detonated a commercial nuclear device, typically used for mining asteroids, in the Haven arcology. This bombing attack killed two million people and wounded 8.3 million. Millions more were expected to die due to cancers and other diseases caused by the radioactive fallout; the fallout was also predicted to cause birth defects for generations afterwards.[/quote] Now tell me, are those the kinds of people you wanna side with? You have two choices A: UNSC, might be strict, but won't randomly murder civilians for no reason at all. B: Rebels, trigger happy -blam!-tards who mass murder civilians left and right repeatedly. Who would you rather be governing you?[/quote] Reply to this. I DARE you. I've not seen a SINGLE person who says Rebels are "GOOD GUYS" respond to the question. Far Isle: Next to no information. Clearly it was far beyond the point of calming anybody down, or else the bombing wouldn't have happened. That Massacre: UNSC had one -blam!- ship, and was hardly a planned situation. 30 Covenant ships appeared out of nowhere, I forget the exact details but Whitcomb was damn sorry about leaving the rebels to die. Come on, rebel fanboy. I DARE you to justify the above events in my previous post. Justify the rebels murdering massive numbers of civilians for NO DAMN REASON.[/quote]But the freedom... "Give me liberty or give me death"! Seriously though... Incident 1: They need to send a message to the CMA. The CMA was the military branch of the CAA, which was taxing them heavily. The CAA wasn't listening to them. The UNSC themselves had to strip them of power because they didn't want to let go (during the Human-Covenant war). Incident 2: Uncalled for good sir (the attack that is). Every orgainization does thing they shouldn't. All of them. However peaceful talks simply weren't getting anywhere. They got fustrated. I'd a like a source though, interesting stuff. There has to be a reason, like there was for incidents 1 and 3. Incident 3: What did Cole do next? The Innies were probably going to let him live. They let UNSC military personnel live on the rubble, so why not let him live as well? Anyways, Cole just blasted the missles straight into their ship, abusing their willingness to have kept him alive rather than blasting the ship to pieces. Incident 4: There has to be a reason. In a war somebody has to gain SOMETHING out of that. They wouldn't have wasted a nuclear weapon on that. I'd a like a source. However if they did it for no reason at all... then my response is the same as incident 2. Far Isle: The nuking didn't need to happen. Never did. Nukes to quell riots is overkill. No pun intended. They could have ended up like Venezia. Problem is... if the UNSC willingly had admmitted defeat, it would have boosted Insurrectionist morale. Not good for their empire, eh? The Massarce: Conceeded good sir. There wasn't much they could have done...but the Rebels DID lend a hand. You got to give them that. Whitcomb however... [quote][url=http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/Massacre_at_Eridanus_Secundus]Whitcomb, feeling his duty was to Earth, not the rebels, ordered an immediate retreat to slipspace, leaving the helpless rebels to their doom.[/url][/quote]Doesn't seem too sorry to me. I would say he did smart/logical thing, so point conceeded. I wouldn't say he felt bad though. Soldiers who are willing to fight for their country do it becasue they feel it's their duty. They don't feel too bad about letting the enemy die. Inusrrectionists have proved that they can lead stable governments, like Venezia and the Rubble. In fact, history shows that a bunch of rebels formed some of the most powerful/influential nations on earth... About the Visegard incident...they helped evacuate Madrigal, and then formed the Rubble. So they did some good, AND get along far better with our former enemies. So reality they are establishing better diplomatic relations then the UNSC is. Look at Venezia. Anways the UNSC as I said is too scared to let go. Where does fear lead? Let a wise little green alien answer that: "Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering." - Yoda, The Phantom Menance. And that is exactly what the UNSC is doing because they are too scared to let go. [i]Suffering[/i]. I answered your points. Extend the courtesy to answer mine? They are in another post.
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    RKOSNAKE

    RKOSNAKE

    10/11/2012 1:06:03 AM Permalink
    The Massacre at Eridanus Secundus...You mean that one instance were the Insurgents openly threatened to board the Gettysburg/Ascendant Justice straight away and had Cortana not fired the plasma turret at a nearby asteroid to scare them away, they would have done so? I just love how you people endorse the idea that Anarchy is alright in the Halo Universe or the real life at that, people fighting for their freedom by killing innocent people a la Al Qaeda? That's so noble! I mean, it's not like everybody hated Al Qaeda when they pulled the 9/11 incident, I mean, the document "Al-qaeda's strategy to the year 2020" sums up the insurrection: [quote]Provoke the United States and the West into invading a Muslim country by staging a massive attack or string of attacks on U.S. soil that results in massive civilian casualties.[/quote] All the bombings and terrorist attacks, most notably the ones at Haven Arcology and Reach. [quote]Incite local resistance to occupying forces.[/quote] Their modus operandi at outer colonies "The UNSC wants to repress us, we all need to rise up and become our own leaders!" [quote]Expand the conflict to neighboring countries, and engage the U.S. and its allies in a long war of attrition.[/quote] The insurrection moving to other colonies and continuing their efforts to grow. [quote]Convert al-Qaeda into an ideology and set of operating principles that can be loosely franchised in other countries without requiring direct command and control, and via these franchises incite attacks against the U.S. and countries allied with the U.S. until they withdraw from the conflict, as happened with the 2004 Madrid train bombings, but which did not have the same effect with the July 7, 2005 London bombings.[/quote] Converting whoever they can to their cause, like they did to Soren-066, manipulating him with the idea that the UNSC was bad, mainly because he wasn't being used, sweet talk, that is. [quote]The U.S. economy will finally collapse by the year 2020 under the strain of multiple engagements in numerous places, making the worldwide economic system which is dependent on the U.S. also collapse leading to global political instability, which in turn leads to a global jihad led by al-Qaeda and a Wahhabi Caliphate will then be installed across the world following the collapse of the U.S. and the rest of the Western world countries.[/quote] What they wanted the war to turn into eventually, having the UNSC collapse due to the lack of resources from the outer colonies. So, congratulations, you are supporting a terrorist ideology! [Edited on 10.10.2012 5:07 PM PDT]
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    VerrucktSchakal

    VerrucktSchakal

    10/11/2012 12:49:52 AM Permalink
    I'm a Dictatorist. Bring the Third Reich into Halo. Do it now. :D [Edited on 10.10.2012 4:50 PM PDT]
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    Cmdr DaeFaron

    Cmdr DaeFaron

    10/11/2012 12:38:58 AM Permalink
    [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Cmdr DaeFaron [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Spartan1995324 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] DarkestSeptagon [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Quantam Innies killed millions of people, often for no reason whatsoever. UNSC![/quote][url=http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/Far_Isle]Read up.[/url][/quote]Show that poor deluded soul the truth...[/quote] Here is the truth about your "good guy" rebels. Not a few hotheads, the bulk of the ones publically known. [quote]In 2525, an insurrectionist attack on a nightclub resulted in the deaths of a number of innocent civilians as well as one Colonial Military Administration pilot, sending another into a coma.[/quote] [quote]The liner was attacked in 2524 by two unmanned orbital taxis sent by a human Insurrectionist organization above the planet Reach. The liner was just completing its load-in of more than 1,500 civilian passengers on a charter tour departing for Arcadia. Unfortunately, due to the amount of explosives that were packed into the two taxis and the ensuing explosion, the National Holiday was unable to get far enough away and was subsequently torn in half. The captain, while unable to maneuver, calmly directed other ships out of the path of the National Holiday before it dropped into the atmosphere of Reach, burning up the liner and killing all crew, personnel and passengers. The explosion was also large enough to burn away the hull paint of every other ship within a two kilometer radius. [/quote] [quote]Callisto boarded another merchant vessel. They were courteously allowed aboard; however, they found the cargo bay empty. The bay doors then opened and the boarding party was blasted into space. The merchant crew then swarmed into the Callisto, murdered the remainder of its crew, and gutted and replaced its computer system. On March 2, 2494, the battle group confronted the Callisto in the 26 Draconis System. The destroyers all fired six of their seven Ares missiles, and in response, the Insurrectionists maneuvered behind an asteroid, which it then detonated in the direction of the UNSC vessels using a nuclear warhead planted beforehand. The Buenos Aires was destroyed and the other two destroyers severely damaged. The entire bridge crew of the Las Vegas was killed or incapacitated, with the exception of Second Lieutenant Preston Cole, who was left unharmed. As the last remaining bridge officer, Cole took control of the Las Vegas. [/quote] [quote]On February 23, 2511, a member of the Freedom and Liberation Party detonated a commercial nuclear device, typically used for mining asteroids, in the Haven arcology. This bombing attack killed two million people and wounded 8.3 million. Millions more were expected to die due to cancers and other diseases caused by the radioactive fallout; the fallout was also predicted to cause birth defects for generations afterwards.[/quote] Now tell me, are those the kinds of people you wanna side with? You have two choices A: UNSC, might be strict, but won't randomly murder civilians for no reason at all. B: Rebels, trigger happy -blam!-tards who mass murder civilians left and right repeatedly. Who would you rather be governing you?[/quote] Reply to this. I DARE you. I've not seen a SINGLE person who says Rebels are "GOOD GUYS" respond to the question. Far Isle: Next to no information. Clearly it was far beyond the point of calming anybody down, or else the bombing wouldn't have happened. That Massacre: UNSC had one -blam!- ship, and was hardly a planned situation. 30 Covenant ships appeared out of nowhere, I forget the exact details but Whitcomb was damn sorry about leaving the rebels to die. The rebels were warned the Covenant were coming. A few ships jumped in, the UNSC controlled ship moved away from the asteroid (I think to possibly prepare to engage), while the rebel guys went back inside. Then 30 ships appeared and he went "We can't win against that... I'm truly sorry but we have to reach earth, we cannot die here." Come on, rebel fanboy. I DARE you to justify the above events in my previous post. Justify the rebels murdering massive numbers of civilians for NO DAMN REASON. Edit: Not to mention the rebels CONTINUED attacking the UNSC long into the human-covenant war. You know, the relay at start of Halo Reach? "Sigh, go get it fixed. The damn rebels took it down again." So, while humanity -blam!- burns, they can't bring themselves to work with the UNSC with the hopes of "Hey, maybe this will get us viewed in a better light and thus more likely to get our wants listened to!" [Edited on 10.10.2012 4:58 PM PDT]
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    Manny

    Manny

    10/11/2012 12:01:20 AM Permalink
    [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] OrderedComa [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Spartan1995324 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] OrderedComa UNSC all the fething way....Insurrectionists are scum, imo, I see nothing good or redeeming about them, bunch of terrorists throwing a hissy fit because they can't get exactly what they want or are way too impatient. I do not like or approve of the Insurection at all...so yeah, UNSC through and through.[/quote]Replace Insurrectionists with Americans, Insurrection with America, and UNSC with The British Empire. Suddenly seems ok doesn't it?[/quote] Hahahaha! XD ....no. They're nothing alike, for one thing the American Revolution was a rebel army battling it out with the government army...the only remotely "terrorist" act from the American Revolutionaries that comes to mind is the Boston Tea Party, and all that was was destruction of property and not an attack on the civilian population. And the fledgling American army didn't go around butchering civilians either. ...find a better comparison to make. Like a much better one for instance would be the Soviet Revolution...or even possibly the French Revolution, you know where the Revolutionaries were butchering thousands of people just for being better off than they were or people who were even suspected of having ties to the aristocrats? [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Spartan1995324 While I agree with you that the Innies were absolutely retarded during the Human - Covenant War, their goal is just. They simply want what the colonies in the Americas wanted. Nobody looks down upon the Americas gaining independence so why is this different? Also, NO government is ever truly "noble", no matter what you think. Things become corrupted over time. Look at ONI. Say what you want but ONI IS part of the UNSC. The higher ups in the UNSC know what's going on (Spartans for example).[/quote] They're not at all justified, the worst thing they have to complain about is *gasp* oh no, taxes! :O ...which aren't even unfair ones. There's no oppression, nothing at all to justify the Innies setting off bombs, destroying cruise liners, and slaughtering civilians. The dissident groups that the Insurrectionists would go on to form out of were even having negotiations with the UNSC/UEG to try and reach some sort of settlement that would be satisfactory to both parties...and then the Innies jumped the gun because they weren't getting exactly what they wanted, or weren't getting what they wanted immediately. They have no excuse for what they do...their only reason for doing so is wanting a different kind of government, ones we in fact know are awful, oppressive, and horrible to their populations, like fascist states, totalitarian, communist, theocratic...the list goes on, they weren't good things.[/quote]The Insurrectionists were being overtaxed, JUST like the Americans! Gasp! The Innies are a rebel army. The UNSC is the UEG's army. There you have your rebels vs government army. The Insurrectionists may have nuked cities, but the UNSC nuked an [url=http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/Far_Isle][i]entire colony[/i][/url]. Also, the Insurrectionists [url=http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/Madrigal]helped evacuate[/url] a civilian population and housed refugees in the Rubble, regardless of their views. Also, you cannot generalize all Insurrectionists because of the actions of the violent terrorists. I'm sure there are Innies that believe in the end goal, but not the means. Like you said, they [i]were[/i] having negotiations. It shows that not all Insurrectionists are blood thirsty. To generalize all Insurrectionists as blood thirsty is like calling all Muslims terrorists because of Al-Qaeda. They simply wanted a different government, just like the Americans did. While some of them wanted questionable governments, some of them didn't. [url=http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/The_Rubble]The Rubble[/url] was a democracy and UNSC military personnel living there were not killed. Goes to show that the Insurrectionists can have "normal" governments. [url=http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/Venezia]Perhaps better[/url] because they can actually live with the aliens. A much more diplomatic move than what the UNSC has done. The Spartan IV's are a wise military move, yes. However I doubt creating more "demons" will put the former Covenant client species at ease. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] OrderedComa The only reason the Spartans were created was because of the Insurrectionists and their actions. They pushed the legal government into a corner and couldn't be adequately dealt with through normal means...something drastic had to be done to save the human race (because it did need saving, if the Innies had continued and things gone on as they were...billions upon [i]billions[/i] of people would be left dead and humanity would be thrust into another Dark Age). And no, actually, ONI gets away with an awful lot that the higher-ups either don't find out about, or find out about later and send someone to clean up and take it out...like with the Mona Lisa. And in the Glasslands Trilogy ONI is acting completely independently of the UNSC and actively trying to subvert the goals of their own government. Doesn't matter if ONI is officially part of the UNSC or not...there are still times where they will do something not sanctioned by the government, their actions are not representative of the UNSC as a whole.[/quote]The Innies would have annihilated the human race? An inter-human war was about to wipe out Humanity? By that logic WWII would have wiped us out. The Innies would have stopped as soon as they got their independence. They weren't out to conquer, only to liberate themselves. The UNSC wouldn't let them go? Why? [quote][url=http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/Insurrection]Opponents of the war believed the simplest solution was to simply give the rebels their autonomy - for the UNSC to pull out, and let the rebels have their independence. [i]However, the value of the colonies made them simply too important to abandon.[/i][/url][/quote] Valuable to who? The UNSC of course. The colonies have resources that the UNSC wants, and needs. The UNSC is dependant on the resources that these colonies can provide, and wants to keep these resources for themselves. To keep their military might up to strength. The UNSC wanted the colonies for their own means. However what happens when something is no longer of value? [url=http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/Massacre_at_Eridanus_Secundus]The Massacre at Eridanus Secundus[/url]. The UNSC came in begging for help. The Rebels actually let them in. Not so bloodthirsty eh? Afterwards what happened? The Covenant showed up in numbers. The UNSC simply left to Rebels to their doom. What happened to protecting people? They didn't even try to get the Rebels near the ship onboard. Besides, ONI and the UNSC weren't even the government at the time of the Insurrection. The UNSC became the emergency military at the time of the Human -Covenant war. If the UNSC [i]really[/i] wanted to get rid of "independent" ONI they could have before when they were the government. As you said they had to mop up the Mona Lisa incident because "they found out later", implying they didn't know. If the UNSC knew [i]nothing[/i] about that, they would have been appalled. Now in this post war era, the UEG is back in control. If the UNSC's hands are clean from ONI's work, they could easily report them to the UEG and have ONI shutdown. Oh but wait, the UEG also commissioned the Spartan program so they are league with ONI. No one's hands are clean. Why not shut down a corrupt organization by exposing them to the public? Because the UNSC [i]is involved as well[/i]. ONI goes down, the UNSC goes down, or at least the (UNSC) higher ups do...and the higher ups are running the show there. Look at the Spartan IIs. No average soldier knows they are abducted children. If the civilian population knew, the UEG, the UNSC, and ONI would get so much hate. It could potentially drive support in favour of the Insurrection. UNSC higher ups are involved. They [i]had[/i] to be since they used the Spartans. If they weren't involved in any way whatsoever, they could expose ONI and the UEG to the public without any fear of losing something themselves. They could offer to be the government, right? They proved to be pretty decent at it during the Human - Covenant war. The economy didn't collapse or anything. (Then again, the Insurrectionists weren't bad at it either. The Rubble and Venezia seemed pretty stable.) A "noble" organization would do the right thing.
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