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#Halo

10/5/2012 9:35:44 PM
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Was the creation of Spartan 2's, evil?

Was it wrong? Now before you say, "well the Spartans 2's were needed to save mankind from the covenant", let me just say that the Spartans originally mission was to fight the insurrectionists/rebels, not covenant. So even if the Covenant never existed/never came in contact with Man, the Spartan's still would have been created. But though these rebels were a threat to the UNSC, i still believe it was evil to capture kids from there parents, replace them with flash clones that later died, genetically experiment on kids (human experimentation, especially when you use it on people without their permission, is wrong). Brainwashing them, turning them into killing machines, removing a part of their humanity, is wrong as well. Some might say that the end's justify the means, but that justification can be used to "justify" several horrors. What if in the future, the USA has even a larger terrorist threat then it does now? Does that make it ok to kidnap kids and experiment on them? No. Just because the experimentation has the potential to save lives, doesn't justify the actions themselves (Imperial Japan experiment on people, and though their findings/data on the incidents can potentially be used, perhaps for combating certain illness's/diseases, said actions still aren't right). History has shown, that some men are willing to hurt/experiment on people to benefit their side in some way, that doesn't make these men good or just. Also, in real life, if radical Islamic terrorists decided to capture kids from their home, train them, and then indoctrinate them with their terrorist ideology, so the kids would have no problem fighting and killing themselves to stop what they see as the "Western" threat. Does that make their actions good just because if can benefit their faction in some way? No What do you think? [Edited on 10.05.2012 1:39 PM PDT]

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Alex the Awesome "Islamic Terrorists" you sir are an ignorant bastard aren't you? Al Qaeda isn't Islam, it does not represent it AT ALL. Look it up, and learn something. They claim it's some branch, or trust Islam. But that is utter crap. [b]Go and ask a Muslim in the USA< and they will deny Al Qaeda is Islam.[/b] Anyways, turning children into soldiers has been done with Spartan times, maybe even before. Spartans in Ancient Greece actually trained from childhood, what you see in 300 isn't completely real, but the stuff about them training from childhood is fact. kidnapping and turning kids into soldiers is pretty old too... centuries old...[/quote] As would a Christian with the -blam!-, but both are still technically based on Christian and Islamic roots, for the -blam!- and Al-Qaeda respectively. AQ uses the jihad as its rational however and that is a Muslim practice. Likewise, the -blam!- uses "Biblical Reconstruction" as the basis for their views. Both groups are flawed. There is no need to get upset for saying "Islamic Terrorists", it's just a more recent example of identifiable terrorism.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Custer If the UNSC was able to make clones, why didn't they make thousands of clones for the war?[/quote] Flash clones that died after 2-3 years of "natural causes". So basically, the flash clones are made to die, naturally. Real proper clones are not possible. The nearest thing is AI. Cortana is a "brain clone" of Dr. Halsey.

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  • "Islamic Terrorists" you sir are an ignorant bastard aren't you? Al Qaeda isn't Islam, it does not represent it AT ALL. Look it up, and learn something. They claim it's some branch, or trust Islam. But that is utter crap. Go and ask a Muslim in the USA< and they will deny Al Qaeda is Islam. Anyways, turning children into soldiers has been done with Spartan times, maybe even before. Spartans in Ancient Greece actually trained from childhood, what you see in 300 isn't completely real, but the stuff about them training from childhood is fact. kidnapping and turning kids into soldiers is pretty old too... centuries old...

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  • If the UNSC was able to make clones, why didn't they make thousands of clones for the war?

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  • I had different views until I read Glasslands. The novel really explores Halsey and her and chief mendez's involvement and their motives. I think it was wrong, but necessary. They used flash clones when they abducted the kids and the clones died. They trained and tortured the children into soldiers then injected them with so many drugs that left many disfigured. I honestly wouldn't be able to live with myself after doing that, this is probably why Halsey is the way she is. Stoic and cold to say the least.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] And Im Here Too Yes, but it was a necessary evil.[/quote]Appropriate TKDR quote in context. I agree with you on that.

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  • Honestly, I couldn't imagine the world of -blam!- the UNSC would be in without them.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] I Judge Bread I The Spartan program was completely unethical, the end does not justify the means in the slightest. At least Spartan IV takes volunteers as opposed to kidnapping kids and forcing them into scientific experimentation that killed or crippled a good chunk of them.[/quote] So, you'd rather humanity pretty much drive itself to extinction and into a second set of Dark Ages leaving billions upon billions dead in its wake due to a very small minority of the population not getting exactly what they want and throwing a hissy-fit over it and going around killing and slaughtering civilians to try and force what they want to happen be allowed to run rampant. I'm sorry but the actions being committed by the Insurrection completely and totally justifies the creation of the Spartan IIs, it doesn't make it something good, but it's something that had to be done to ensure the survival of humanity. Without the Spartans the vast majority of humanity's 39+ billion population would be left dead and there would be no infrastructure or anything left, humanity would be left in another Dark Age and pretty much have to rebuild itself from the Stone Ages once again. It seems you don't know what "experimentation" is as you're misusing the term and trying to describe something where it doesn't apply. No humans were experimented on at all, [i]monkeys[/i], chimps specifically, are what all of the augmentations used on the Spartans were tested on. If you know what the results are going to be and aren't seeking to create or find new results, it's not really an experiment. The augmentation process was not in any way shape or form an experiment, that's misusing the term. And you know what, so what if they died or were crippled? They were all fixed afterward by Halsey or worked to be fixed up and revived, even if they couldn't be fielded as a Spartan. They were healed and fixed as much as they possibly could be and given the chance at a normal life again. If they were all just left as they were inured and dead, you would have grounds to complain...but you don't because the washouts of the augmentations were all fixed afterward.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Spartan1995324 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Cmdr DaeFaron [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] AJF1177 Yes. Kidnapping children and forcing them to be super soldiers is evil.[/quote] I honestly hope that by saying that, you include the S3's as well. I've seen too many people hate on the S2 project for it's details, and be fine with the S3 project.[/quote]Spartan III's were created when the UNSC was already at war with the Covenant. They were created to buy time, if you've read Ghosts of Oynx then when they're planning out the Spartan III program they say that almost word for word. I think creating Spartan to ensure Humanity's survival is a reasonable goal. Do I agree with the method? No. Do I agree with the objective? Yes.[/quote] Well, I'm just saying plenty of people are pants on head retarded because they go "S2 program and Halsey are soooo evil!" Then "S3 program is fine. Those guys volunteered/gave consent!" (At around 6 years old? ha.) [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] DecepticonCobra [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] I Judge Bread I The Spartan program was completely unethical, the end does not justify the means in the slightest. [/quote] Tell that to the people of Mamore and Far Isle.[/quote] Indeed, the concept of Spartans allows the UNSC to fight the rebels, but without deploying large numbers of soldiers and gear and resulting in a blood-bath.

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  • Its bad because they kidnapped kids and forced them to fight.

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  • The initial reason they were created were to fight fellow humans (ie innsurrectionists). Yes they were instumental (especially John) in winning the war against the Covenant, but that does NOT excuse the fact they were created in a sinister manner.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] I Judge Bread I [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] DecepticonCobra Implying terrorism is an easy threat to break. [/quote] When did I imply that? The Spartans are literally walking tanks, they were very effective in taking down the military side of the Insurrection but they hardly blend in. I would say that ONI is better equipped to take down the Insurrection than any Spartan overall. [/quote] When you asked if the UNSC and ONI had military assets. Why send a large force at an Innie compound when a few Spartans does the job better? If ONI could topple the rebels better than the Spartans, they would not have made them.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] DecepticonCobra Implying terrorism is an easy threat to break. [/quote] When did I imply that? The Spartans are literally walking tanks, they were very effective in taking down the military side of the Insurrection but they hardly blend in. I would say that ONI is better equipped to take down the Insurrection than any Spartan overall.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] I Judge Bread I [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] DecepticonCobra [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] I Judge Bread I The Spartan program was completely unethical, the end does not justify the means in the slightest. [/quote] Tell that to the people of Mamore and Far Isle.[/quote] So the UNSC and ONI don't have any military assets at their disposal? There's also the fact that the Insurrectionists wouldn't exist if the Colonies had a good infrastructure in the first place so that people weren't being made poor by the government.[/quote] Implying terrorism is an easy threat to break. How do you accurately defeat an opponent who blends in with society and can strike at any time? And please, rebellions began before humanity left the Solar System, mismanagement isn't the first cause. It didn't help matters, but when you nuke civilians your cause loses any sympathy.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] DecepticonCobra [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] I Judge Bread I The Spartan program was completely unethical, the end does not justify the means in the slightest. [/quote] Tell that to the people of Mamore and Far Isle.[/quote] So the UNSC and ONI don't have any military assets at their disposal? There's also the fact that the Insurrectionists wouldn't exist if the Colonies had a good infrastructure in the first place so that people weren't being made poor by the government.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] I Judge Bread I The Spartan program was completely unethical, the end does not justify the means in the slightest. [/quote] Tell that to the people of Mamore and Far Isle.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] haloplayer2kill [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] And Im Here Too Intentionally ruining a few hundred lives in exchange for gaining weapons that helped save the human race. Yes, but it was a necessary evil.[/quote] Maybe that's not necessarily true, perhaps in a AU haloverse. Instead of the UNSC trying to create super soldiers out of children. They do it with military adults, adults who have allowed/have given consent to be experiment upon. Though maybe the UNSC would lose without the Spartan 2's, but we don't know that for fact. Many variables can come into play (for example, in an AU, what if somehow the Elities learned the truth, and a covenant civil war happened before the date it happened in canon haloverse).[/quote] They did, but the adults coudlnt handle the augmentations.

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  • The Spartan program was completely unethical, the end does not justify the means in the slightest. At least Spartan IV takes volunteers as opposed to kidnapping kids and forcing them into scientific experimentation that killed or crippled a good chunk of them.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Mikal7 People, the point I'm trying to make is that the SPARTANs were NOT originally created to protect humanity. They were created to protect the UNSC. There is a HUGE difference. [/quote] Except the rebellion could pose a threat to all of humanity. Two sides with nukes and the willingness to use them isn't a threat?

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  • It's an evil that was worth it in the end.

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  • I think a better title to this thread would have been - "Do the ends justify the means?" Was it evil - kidnapping children, putting them through horrednous medical procedures and then forcing them to fight their own kind. Of course it was evil, but it was also necesary as was the creation of the atom bomb.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] OrderedComa In fact, they didn't even have any right to rebel at all, seeing as the colonies were all set up with UEG/UNSC funds and resources in the first place, unlike the British colonies in the Americas being set up by private individuals and companies as opposed to the actual government.[/quote]They were being over taxed, which interestingly enough was one of the starting points of the American Revolution. Only later did they begin to spin it into some tale of freedom.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Cmdr DaeFaron [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] AJF1177 Yes. Kidnapping children and forcing them to be super soldiers is evil.[/quote] I honestly hope that by saying that, you include the S3's as well. I've seen too many people hate on the S2 project for it's details, and be fine with the S3 project.[/quote]Spartan III's were created when the UNSC was already at war with the Covenant. They were created to buy time, if you've read Ghosts of Oynx then when they're planning out the Spartan III program they say that almost word for word. I think creating Spartan to ensure Humanity's survival is a reasonable goal. Do I agree with the method? No. Do I agree with the objective? Yes.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] GhostLink2401 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] haloplayer2kill [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] GhostLink2401 I know you said "barring Covenant intervention", but it still kinda made the debate moot. Nobody in their right mind would question the project, or it's ethics, after it single-handedly won humanity the war. A fractured humanity is no good for expansion. The UNSC needed a quick and decisive way to quell any rebellion. If 150 children have to give up their future to save countless potential lives, then I'd say it was worth it. And weren't the Spartans all colony kids? What future did they really have to begin with? The Spartan-II program let them live to their full potential, and they likely did more as Spartans than they ever would have as civvies. [/quote] Two things to say. 1. Really? Main reason why Mankind won the war? An legitimate argument could be made, that if the Civil War never happened within the Covenant, Mankind, even with Spartans, would have been defeated. 2. We have no evidence that the children were not going to have a great future if they weren't kidnapped, and even if that was the case, that is still no justification for kidnapping them from loving parents. That's like saying its ok for the USA to kidnap kids from 3rd world countries who have parents who love them, just because they think they would have a better life in a 1st world country like the USA.[/quote] I dunno if it's elaborated upon in the books, but wasn't it Chief's destruction of Installation 04 that kickstarted the Civil War? Thel fails to protect the ring, and that gets the ball rolling for the Elite's secession from the Covenant. No Spartan project, no destroyed ring. I doubt anyone else could fight through the Library, get the Index, steal it back from Spark, destroy the phase pulse generators, fight through a Flood infested ship to get Keyes' neural hub, and then fight through the [i]Autumn[/i] to destroy the ring. I seriously doubt the best trained ODST squad could do all that. [/quote]The Prophets were planning to replace the Elites with Brutes a long time before that.

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  • Immoral, but necessary.

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  • War is a horrible thing. To ultimately win a war you either have to be willing to do horrible things, drop a nuclear bomb on women and children for example, or you have to be vastly superior in technology and power. If giving up a few hundred lives saves billions then it might be considered a necessary evil.

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