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8/18/2012 4:15:34 AM
198
Unfortunately, the Title System hasn't worked
Apologies if my history is slightly off or generalized, I'm doing this straight from memory. I'm talking about events that happened 5 years ago.
[b][u]Why the title system was put in place[/u][/b]
The title system was put in place after enough members asked for it, and the web-team was able to find time to design one. The title system was not put in place with unanimous support from membership however. The two sides' arguments can be boiled down to this:
[u]1. Those who wanted it[/u]:
It will encourage better behavior among members, It will do this in two ways.
1. It will provide for members an incentive to be an active member that behaves within the rules of the forums.
2. Members with titles will be positive examples to newer members.
The community will move past the initial elitism, so those concerns shouldn't stop what would be a good improvement to the website.
[u]2. Those who didn't[/u]:
It will garner elitism in the community. Members will use titles to show that their points are better, and new members will quote them simply because they have higher titles. It's the same reason we don't show when members joined next to their name anymore.
I was in the camp that supported having titles when the idea came out, or I was at least neutral towards them. I also felt that member join-dates should be shown. Eventually, the new system was put in place by Achronos and the webteam, and we've used it for almost 5 years now. Time flies when you're having fun.
[b][u]Has the title system worked as intended?[/u][/b]
If you read the title to the post, then you should know my answer: No, it hasn't worked. I do not believe that the title system has generated better community behavior, and I do think that elitism has emerged from the title system. The same threads about The Flood and [insert most recent Bungie-made game here] forums being filled with dumb posts and there not being enough moderators are posted just like the threads that came before them.
In addition to this, there is elitism that comes from titles. Almost immediately after the title system was implemented, a mythic members group was created, and a legendary members group was created. I wouldn't be surprised if a heroic members group existed. There's nothing wrong with groups being created, but they do show how almost immediately the title system had begun to divide members into (oh, this next word will get me in trouble) classes.
I honestly do not believe the elitism to be that strong of an issue, but I think it would be foolish to deny its existence. To say that members don't quote mythic members simply because they are mythic members would be like saying that members don't quote moderators and employees just because they are employees. So, we still have elitism, and most would say that The Flood and other forums haven't improved because of anything other than a decrease in activity. Whether or not you think that the title system works well in determining who gets what title, isn't it fair to say that the title system hasn't worked as advertised?
tl;dr: Titles have been around for well over 4 years now. Elitism has developed, but the same problems still exist and don't seem to be improving.
If you agree it's broken, and think it can be fixed, how can it be fixed? If you don't agree it's broken, as I'm sure most of you won't, please explain why.
[Edited on 08.17.2012 8:19 PM PDT]
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Nobody is actually an Elitist because of the title system, idiotic regular members, heroics, and legendaries just complain and complain and complain that the Elitism is present (even though it's not). I was very happy to have gotten my Legendary (back) today, and I have tried (to an extent) to avoid bans so that I can continue my inexorable march toward Mythicism. [Edited on 08.17.2012 8:18 PM PDT]
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] CrazzySnipe55 I was very happy to have gotten my Legendary (back) today, and I have tried (to an extent) to avoid bans so that I can continue my inexorable march toward Mythicism. [/quote]Why? Did you change as a member when you got the title back, or will you change as a member when you get Mythic back?
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Your reasoning is wrong though. Achronos said he put it in just because it's fun. Now make a thread based on that revelation.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] squirrel dude Why?[/quote]I like having other titles. Why do people play Halo: Reach Matchmaking to get new armor? Aesthetics. [quote] Did you change as a member when you got the title back[/quote]TO get the title, yes. And it's only "back" because it's flickering. My march started from member and it hasn't been halted since. [quote] or will you change as a member when you get Mythic back?[/quote]Never had Mythic, but I probably will. Mainly because I'll be older (IRL) and I'll probably take the same path of general maturity that most members take. Because I won't want to lose my title. Nobody likes to be boring.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] burritosenior Your reasoning is wrong, though. Achronos said he put it in just because it's fun. Now make a thread based on that revelation.[/quote]*psst* If it's just for fun, and it created elitism, then it's just as much of a failure. Also, I don't take Achronos at his word too often. I know it's a bad attitude, but it's true. That's not to say I don't respect him. Personally I credit him with the creation of Floodians. That's a pretty significant thing he's done. Beyond that, he approaches the website from a very different viewpoint then most people (okay, me) who post changes to the website. He doesn't see it as serious business. He understands it as a fun way for members to share their thoughts, and for Bungie to advertise their games. I think that's reflected in his understanding of title systems as something fun, without putting thought into any community ramifications. That's another, very long debate, though. [Edited on 08.17.2012 8:29 PM PDT]
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I suppose I am what you would call a child of the regime. I joined after titles were implemented and I honestly do not notice much of a problem. This could be, of course, because I do not know any different. EDIT- Now if this were a thread to change the Legendary member's title color to something other than this ugly gray, I'd be all for it. [Edited on 08.17.2012 8:26 PM PDT]
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] squirrel dude it created elitism [/quote]Show me legitimate elitism generated by titles. If you cite MMG I will lmao.
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All I think is nobody is paying attention on the Titles. I've been a Member for 2 years with no bans and no Title change!
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] CrazzySnipe55 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] squirrel dude it created elitism [/quote]Show me legitimate elitism generated by titles. If you cite MMG I will lmao.[/quote] Clearly your points are better than OP. After all, you are a legendary member. (Does that count?)
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Did you quote Burrito because of his blue bar? There's only 1 group for elitists and that's HFCS. They won't let us normies join! :-( [Edited on 08.17.2012 8:29 PM PDT]
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] xXIHAYD0IXx [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] CrazzySnipe55 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] squirrel dude it created elitism [/quote]Show me legitimate elitism generated by titles. If you cite MMG I will lmao.[/quote] Clearly your points are better than OP. After all, you are a legendary member. (Does that count?)[/quote]No, because it's fake.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] CrazzySnipe55 No, because it's fake.[/quote]I would argue with you, but you are "Intrepid" whereas I am merely "Noble." It's not my place. I bow to your superior knowledge.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] CrazzySnipe55 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] squirrel dude it created elitism [/quote]Show me legitimate elitism generated by titles. If you cite MMG I will lmao.[/quote]Want to know what's fun, being told that your ideas are dumber than what is expected from a mythic member, by another mythic member. Had that happen to me (the most recent time, not for a good reason), and surprisingly, it's actually not that fun. If you wondering how that represents elitism, I would be to. I'll explain. It shows that there is a cultural understanding (as much as their can be on the internet, where a generation is really about 2 to 3 years long) that a mythic member is expected to be smarter or better. If there is an acceptance that mythic members are smarter and better than others, then I think that clearly shows that elitism is present. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] CrazzySnipe55 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] squirrel dude Why?[/quote]I like having other titles. Why do people play Halo: Reach Matchmaking to get new armor? Aesthetics. [quote] Did you change as a member when you got the title back[/quote]TO get the title, yes. And it's only "back" because it's flickering. My march started from member and it hasn't been halted since. [quote] or will you change as a member when you get Mythic back?[/quote]Never had Mythic, but I probably will. Mainly because I'll be older (IRL) and I'll probably take the same path of general maturity that most members take. Because I won't want to lose my title. Nobody likes to be boring.[/quote]Let me ask it another way. Do you think that I changed because I lost my title, after being banned a week ago? And Do you think other members will treat me differently, [u]not knowing I lost the title[/u], because I'm no longer a mythic member? [Edited on 08.17.2012 8:40 PM PDT]
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] squirrel dude It shows that there is a cultural understanding (as much as their can be on the internet, where a generation is really about 2 to 3 years long) that a mythic member is expected to be smarter or better. If there is an acceptance that mythic members are smarter and better than others, then I think that clearly shows that elitism is present. [/quote]There is an expectation, largely based in fact, that those members who have been on this website in excess of two or three years will have better grammar, ideas, and general post content. This is not due to elitism, as you say, but rather maturity and experience. You have the cause and effect mixed up. You say mythic members are expected to be more mature, but it is largely those who are more mature who become mythic members.
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It seems to me that the title system works, perhaps not perfectly, but it does. Operant conditioning my friend, the title system works as a way of positively reinforcing good behavior by giving them new titles and negatively punishing them by taking their titles away when they get banned/warned. I'll admit I'm not the same member as I was before, I'm more aware of what to do and not to do here. The question is though, was the change due to the extrinsic factors of the title system, or was it due to me maturing as a member? I would say both factor into it, but honestly I am far more cautious in what I post then when I was a member or heroic member. People like being rewarded for their behavior, it is an incentive. You could say it has created some elitism, but honestly most of it seems to be joking around for the most part.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] xXIHAYD0IXx [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] squirrel dude It shows that there is a cultural understanding (as much as their can be on the internet, where a generation is really about 2 to 3 years long) that a mythic member is expected to be smarter or better. If there is an acceptance that mythic members are smarter and better than others, then I think that clearly shows that elitism is present. [/quote]There is an expectation, largely based in fact, that those members who have been on this website in excess of two or three years will have better grammar, ideas, and general post content. This is not due to elitism, as you say, but rather maturity and experience. You have the cause and effect mixed up. You say mythic members are expected to be more mature, but it is largely those who are more mature who become mythic members.[/quote]I really want to challenge that, but I don't want to get into a discussion of how accurate and effective the title system actually is. To sum it up: - If the system isn't effective, then the praise isn't earned, and it's just an acceptance that having a certain bar color can make you better than someone who has another bar color. Quick Evidence that the system isn't effective - It took only an hour and just 4 posts after I got off a ban to get from member to fabled heroic member. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] MightyMarcher01 I've been a Member for 2 years with no bans and no Title change![/quote] [Edited on 08.17.2012 8:44 PM PDT]
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I thought the OP was a mythic.
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When do I get my kneepads sent out. I've been waiting for 3 years apparently. I read through a bunch of those title theory threads, and after dozing off a couple times, due to boring behind the scenes algorithmic talk, I've come to realize that it doesn't matter. Some people are really into making this site a better place, and if titles seperate them a bit, kudos, they deserve it.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] defnop552 Did you quote Burrito because of his blue bar? There's only 1 group for elitists and that's HFCS. They won't let us normies join! :-([/quote] Well at least that group is better than TGP or SV. lol.
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I personally think, people who seek a useless title is just a tryhard. My 50 cents.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] squirrel dude Want to know what's fun, being told that your ideas are dumber than what is expected from a mythic member, by another mythic member. Had that happen to me (the most recent time, not for a good reason), and surprisingly, it's actually not that fun. If you wondering how that represents elitism, I would be to. I'll explain. [/quote]Would you blame Abraham because a small minority of the human population (the German National Socialist Party) happened to view the religion that he spawned as evil and worthy of killing 6 million followers of said religion? No, you would blame the German National Socialist Party. The way a small minority interprets an action or idea shouldn't be cited as a reason for the idea being a failure. [quote]It shows that there is a cultural understanding (as much as their can be on the internet, where a generation is really about 2 to 3 years long) that a mythic member is expected to be smarter or better. If there is an acceptance that mythic members are smarter and better than others, then I think that clearly shows that elitism is present. [/quote]They're only expected to be like that because they're expected to be older. If you consider most people join the site when they're 13, 14, 15, 16, then by the time they get mythic they're at least 16, 17, 18, 19 and therefore shown to be at an older, more mature age. It's simple, easily conveyable logic. I can look at a mythic member and know they've been here for a year within a millisecond. It only makes sense to look at a mythic member and assume they've been here 3 years because most mythics (I would assume) don't get mythic, get banned, then have to climb back for another 6 months to a year or however long it takes. It's literally like you're wearing a shirt that says "I'm probably 3 years old". [quote]Do you think that I changed because I lost my title, after being banned a week ago?[/quote]Nope. [quote]And Do you think other members will treat me differently, not knowing I lost the title, because I'm no longer a mythic member?[/quote]Only because the logical conclusion one would get when looking at you (not knowing who you are) is that you have less experience with the site than a Mythic, not knowing your join date or former title. It's simple logic, not elitism. [Edited on 08.17.2012 9:26 PM PDT]
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I remember back when Reach came out and a Mythic member thought that all Mythic Members deserved their own nameplate because they have some how "contributed" to the community. News Flash: Skirting a Ban for four years =/= Contributing to the community. I was so pissed at how elitist some of the people in that thread got, but I was so happy when it never happened. Title's haven't really made Bungie.net better. [Edited on 08.17.2012 9:16 PM PDT]
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There is some form of "ranking" system on most forums one finds on the internet. I've never seen one community that cares more about this pointless topic than this one. There would have been elitism without the titles because people here care more about their join dates than their bar color anyway. All in all, don't give a -blam!-.
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You don't work
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Avatar Korra I thought the OP was a mythic.[/quote]Banned for admitting to purposefully breaking the rules. [Edited on 08.17.2012 9:54 PM PDT]
