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SurreallFeal

SurreallFeal

6/23/2012 10:28:34 PM
I remember I first read Eric Nylund's The Fall of Reach when I was about 7. I remember being in love with that story, even though I didn't even entirely understand a lot of it. Since then I have read the book COUNTLESS times. Now I can recognize that the writing style and general mechanics aren't all that impressive, and some parts that could be amazing with more details and elaboration, but the story itself is amazing. When Halo Reach came out, the entire battle is on a much smaller scale, and simply doesn't feel as good. I understand that Nylund's version wouldn't make for much of a campaign, but at least the story is excellent. The Reach campaign just moves around too much and I can't seem to get myself to enjoy it. I have heard that the events of a video game override books in terms of what is canon, but I can't bring myself to accept the game's story. Does anyone else feel this way? [Edited on 06.23.2012 2:28 PM PDT]

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    sybruise
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    nightspark

    nightspark

    8/6/2012 5:03:44 PM Permalink
    [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Xd00999 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] OrderedComa (Daefaron, I think you have that list of UNSC war assets on Reach don't you? Would you mind posting that if you can?) [/quote] [url=http://www.bungie.net/projects/reach/article.aspx?ucc=intel&cid=27032]Here you go.[/url][/quote] Damn. I thought we were fighting on Harvest.
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    nightspark
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    Decitron

    Decitron

    8/5/2012 11:32:31 AM Permalink
    I liked Reach's story (which only got silly when the Cortana stuff came up) [b][i]BECAUSE[/i][/b] it flew in the face (and proceeded to take a squat on) of Nylund's terrible additions to the Halo bible.
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    Old Salty27

    Old Salty27

    8/5/2012 5:07:52 AM Permalink
    The recons with the elites showing up and the number of s-2s was very minor and forgivable. As for the battle of Reach lasting only 2 hours, it didn't; once the navy lost Reach for all intensive purposes was considered lost, but ground battles lasted for weeks. My big gripe was how early the battle began and largely went un-noticed until the main Covenant fleet showed up. Noble Team's existence wasn't really a big deal conically, except how Bungie decided to flesh out their back story; Kurt knew and even had a hand in Noble Teams creation. This bugs the hell out of me. In GoO Kurt is so broken over the fact that only two S-3s return out of the 600 he trained he decides to augment the latest class of Spartans with dangerous illegal augmentations to give them a better chance of surviving. If Kurt had been pulling out Spartans from suicide missions from the get go, I don't think he would have been desperate enough to do what he did with gamma company. As for the battle of Reach's depiction in the game, I understand it was from a separate perspective from FoR, but It was just too small and narrow a perspective to give the player a real feel for a planet at war(especially a planet that's supposed to be a "fortress among the stars")
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    OrderedComa

    OrderedComa

    8/5/2012 2:33:21 AM Permalink
    [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] cameo_cream I don't accept it as canon because it -blam!-s on so many other games canon. It makes far more sense to just ignore that one game, than to try and find reasons for all the -blam!- that Reach created. Plus I hate the game.... so yeah. Yet, when the Covenant were attacking Reach in the game, none of that existed. People can't say that many ships were off station.[/quote] Hah, wat? It doesn't even affect any of the other games, what ludicrousness is this? What is this, I don't even-? How does it even come close to affecting the other games?!?! O_o The only thing it even comes close to affecting in any sort of significant way is like the final 20-40 pages of TFoR and about the same amount of pages in First Strike, and even then it didn't even really do anything there either. But feel free to think whatever you want, I'm certainly not going to try and stop you :P Quite a few people have said this before, you play the game as Noble Six, your view of the Battle of Reach is limited to what Noble Six, and to some extent Noble Team, experienced. One man/woman can't be everywhere at once and isn't going to learn everything about the war for one planet as a whole. Like Master Chief for instance, in Halo 3 we only saw the fighting that was going on in Eastern Africa...yet other sources have showed us that several other places on Earth were attacked as well as the New Mombasa area. Six didn't and couldn't see all of Reach. So we're not going to see or really learn about the battle going on in space or other parts of the planet, one reason being that it doesn't matter to Six's story. [quote][b]Old Salty27[/b][/quote] Reach does not disregard any of the expanded universe, Salty, can't agree with that assessment at all, not even a little bit. And everything in those expanded stories came from Bungie actually, authors would get some of the relevant data for their book and go from there, things like the SIIIs, and so on. One part of a book that from the title you guess would be the main focus but instead only takes up about 20-40 pages of said book being contradicted or changed (which Reach does not do, by the way) does not equate to essentially say "screw it" to the Halo books written before Reach came out. The rest of TFoR is just fine, the battle, which as I said before isn't even much of the book, is the only part where anyone even has grounds to argue about changes or contradictions. And a great deal of stuff in TFoR was already retconned anyway, such as the date for when Elites and Hunters were first encountered for instance or the numbers of the Spartan IIs that made it into active duty. The whole book was written as a standalone to tie in with one game, neither Bungie, Microsoft, or anyone else was expecting Halo to make it as big as it did. As such TFoR was written with a very narrow perception of the story and didn't leave much room if any for a great big universe to be expanded after it came out. That's one of the biggest problems with TFoR, that it didn't imagine big at all. Especially not with the battle it was supposed to be about.
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    Metroidman42

    Metroidman42

    8/3/2012 9:27:45 AM Permalink
    Good God. I've heard of beating a dead horse, but this topic has been going on since Reach launched. It is completely and utterly retarded to think that Humanities largest military colony would fall in one day. Most of the UNSC's strength was housed there. The SMAC's were on the other side of the planet, so they couldn't take out the Carrier. There would be differing accounts as to what actually happened, the navy might say that it fell in a day, but NOBLE was on the planet for a few months so that is what they would call "The Fall of Reach". Meanwhile the Navy is saying that the fall was only on one day, not over those months. Stop bringing this up.
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    RKOSNAKE

    RKOSNAKE

    8/2/2012 4:15:04 AM Permalink
    [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Cmdr DaeFaron [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] RKOSNAKE [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Old Salty27 After player Reach for the first time I tried piecing together the events of the games and books to see if they'd fit, but there were too many inconsistencies and wild leaps in logic. Even when 343 tried clearing things up with the data drops a few months back they just made things worse; ONI luring the Covenant to Reach and allowing half a planet to come under attack to capture a Covy flagship, all the while trying to prevent the other half of the planet and most of Reach's fleet from finding out. What the hell was the point of Red Flag then?! Red flag was set up to PREVENT something like that from happening to Reach and Earth. 343 turned ONI into suicidally retarded morons. I know some would argue they were trying to clean up Bungie's mess, but the cynical part of me thinks they were elated at the prospect of releasing re-edited version of the FoR to add this new stuff in and raking in money from the book sales. [/quote] Red Flag was all about capturing a Covenant ship, even in TFoR it was the same, it was not meant to prevent something like what happened at Reach to happen, so I don't know where you're getting that info from. Besides, it makes more sense to have the Covenant actually scouting the planet beforehand than just have them jump into the system and know every single important location at Reach at that instant.[/quote] He is right though in 343 has turned ONI into a Cerberus faction of stupid evil.[/quote] They were already acting like that ever since Evolutions was released, so meh.
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    Cmdr DaeFaron

    Cmdr DaeFaron

    8/2/2012 2:04:51 AM Permalink
    [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] RKOSNAKE [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Old Salty27 After player Reach for the first time I tried piecing together the events of the games and books to see if they'd fit, but there were too many inconsistencies and wild leaps in logic. Even when 343 tried clearing things up with the data drops a few months back they just made things worse; ONI luring the Covenant to Reach and allowing half a planet to come under attack to capture a Covy flagship, all the while trying to prevent the other half of the planet and most of Reach's fleet from finding out. What the hell was the point of Red Flag then?! Red flag was set up to PREVENT something like that from happening to Reach and Earth. 343 turned ONI into suicidally retarded morons. I know some would argue they were trying to clean up Bungie's mess, but the cynical part of me thinks they were elated at the prospect of releasing re-edited version of the FoR to add this new stuff in and raking in money from the book sales. [/quote] Red Flag was all about capturing a Covenant ship, even in TFoR it was the same, it was not meant to prevent something like what happened at Reach to happen, so I don't know where you're getting that info from. Besides, it makes more sense to have the Covenant actually scouting the planet beforehand than just have them jump into the system and know every single important location at Reach at that instant.[/quote] He is right though in 343 has turned ONI into a Cerberus faction of stupid evil.
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    RKOSNAKE

    RKOSNAKE

    8/1/2012 11:59:48 PM Permalink
    [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Old Salty27 After player Reach for the first time I tried piecing together the events of the games and books to see if they'd fit, but there were too many inconsistencies and wild leaps in logic. Even when 343 tried clearing things up with the data drops a few months back they just made things worse; ONI luring the Covenant to Reach and allowing half a planet to come under attack to capture a Covy flagship, all the while trying to prevent the other half of the planet and most of Reach's fleet from finding out. What the hell was the point of Red Flag then?! Red flag was set up to PREVENT something like that from happening to Reach and Earth. 343 turned ONI into suicidally retarded morons. I know some would argue they were trying to clean up Bungie's mess, but the cynical part of me thinks they were elated at the prospect of releasing re-edited version of the FoR to add this new stuff in and raking in money from the book sales. [/quote] Red Flag was all about capturing a Covenant ship, even in TFoR it was the same, it was not meant to prevent something like what happened at Reach to happen, so I don't know where you're getting that info from. Besides, it makes more sense to have the Covenant actually scouting the planet beforehand than just have them jump into the system and know every single important location at Reach at that instant.
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    Old Salty27

    Old Salty27

    8/1/2012 11:43:58 PM Permalink
    After player Reach for the first time I tried piecing together the events of the games and books to see if they'd fit, but there were too many inconsistencies and wild leaps in logic. Even when 343 tried clearing things up with the data drops a few months back they just made things worse; ONI luring the Covenant to Reach and allowing half a planet to come under attack to capture a Covy flagship, all the while trying to prevent the other half of the planet and most of Reach's fleet from finding out. What the hell was the point of Red Flag then?! Red flag was set up to PREVENT something like that from happening to Reach and Earth. 343 turned ONI into suicidally retarded morons. I know some would argue they were trying to clean up Bungie's mess, but the cynical part of me thinks they were elated at the prospect of releasing re-edited version of the FoR to add this new stuff in and raking in money from the book sales.
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    Manny

    Manny

    8/1/2012 9:00:27 PM Permalink
    [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Sp4rksLT [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Spartan1995324 ^ You know... Bungie as developers are free to do what THEY want. They are not bound to us. Sure they want our money, but they won't let fans restrict their creative freedom. While I agree more care should be taken with canon, there one thing to remeber. Halo is not our right to play. It's a privilege. They could end the series whenever and leave us with no more Halo ever again.[/quote] You're wrong. That's what most of companies want you to think, to be a fanboy like that. It's the other way around. THEY exist because of US, not the other way around. I agree, they make damn good games, hats off to them, but you should not forget that this is a business. They don't hand out games for free for it to be a privilege, we buy the games. They're a product, and we as consumers, as fans, customers are always right (well I mean not the dumb masses, but the smarter minority). We make the games exist by voting with our wallets, buying them. But indeed they have their creative freedom, but companies should always look to the fans and see what they want. Not too much I mean, usually game designers know how to design a game, but bits and pieces. Like sticking to canon, excluding annoying stuff or improving it. I hated Reach for the story. The story I liked, the story it destroyed. Looking at it now I know TFoR isn't really such a great book, but I loved it when I was younger, and that's what matters. It's what fans liked and it was canon to us for 10 years.[/quote]Well usually when devs starting making games PURELY for money it goes bad. Lack of effort, just copy and paste from other successful formulas. The Devs need to have souls and put passion into their games like Bungie. That hard work pays off and you can see it in the game. I agree with you that Devs should listen to us fans, but not let us run the game either. However without Devs we wouldn't have these amazing games, but without us they wouldn't sell. I think it's a symbiotic relationship now that I think about it. We need each other to please eac other. We get a game, Devs get the money to feed their families and what not. Also my situation with canon is different than yours. I read TFOR as I was playing the Halo Reach campaign. So in my mind I pictured lots of fighting on different parts of the planet at different times. Playing the campaign on legendary made Reach feel like even more of a struggle, also knowing that other Spartans were having a tough time. [Edited on 08.01.2012 1:02 PM PDT]
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    Sp4rksLT

    Sp4rksLT

    8/1/2012 7:57:38 PM Permalink
    [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Spartan1995324 ^ You know... Bungie as developers are free to do what THEY want. They are not bound to us. Sure they want our money, but they won't let fans restrict their creative freedom. While I agree more care should be taken with canon, there one thing to remeber. Halo is not our right to play. It's a privilege. They could end the series whenever and leave us with no more Halo ever again.[/quote] You're wrong. That's what most of companies want you to think, to be a fanboy like that. It's the other way around. THEY exist because of US, not the other way around. I agree, they make damn good games, hats off to them, but you should not forget that this is a business. They don't hand out games for free for it to be a privilege, we buy the games. They're a product, and we as consumers, as fans, customers are always right (well I mean not the dumb masses, but the smarter minority). We make the games exist by voting with our wallets, buying them. But indeed they have their creative freedom, but companies should always look to the fans and see what they want. Not too much I mean, usually game designers know how to design a game, but bits and pieces. Like sticking to canon, excluding annoying stuff or improving it. I hated Reach for the story. The story I liked, the story it destroyed. Looking at it now I know TFoR isn't really such a great book, but I loved it when I was younger, and that's what matters. It's what fans liked and it was canon to us for 10 years.
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    Citrus raptor

    Citrus raptor

    8/1/2012 7:37:11 PM Permalink
    [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Spartan1995324 ^ You know... Bungie as developers are free to do what THEY want. They are not bound to us. Sure they want our money, but they won't let fans restrict their creative freedom. While I agree more care should be taken with canon, there one thing to remeber. Halo is not our right to play. It's a privilege. They could end the series whenever and leave us with no more Halo ever again.[/quote]You're choosing to take my opinion as definitive, and that Bungie should obay slightest wave. That is of coarse not what I want. I'm just here to say whether I appreciate their [i]creative freedom[/i], or if I feel that they have abused it. I don't care if they change or not, that's up to them. But I can see things black and white too, here, let me try.. What you're saying, is essentially that no one should ever complain, no critism whatsoever, no one is to say anything negative at all, never. If you have a beef with the game, don't buy it, and if you've already done so, write a subjective review. After that, stay off the forums, for anything other than prais and/or analysis of the game. Bungie is not to know what their average fans think, only what the established reviewers think? Now when I think of it, that sounds like a lot better world, I'm not even being sarcastic. Are you with me, let's collectively stop complaining? Even though all I ever wanted was for my idols to know, honestly, what I thought about their game, in an easy and accessible way (through their own forum). I know that's what I would want if I ever got any fans, but if Bungie doesn't want that, just let me know. But as you said, Bungie makes games that they want to play, they don't care if anyone else likes them, as long as they get their money. Why they're even tolerating anyone to criticize their games on their own forum is beyond me... [b]:P[/b] hope the smilie helps set the tone I was aiming for, but probably failed at delivering. [Edited on 08.01.2012 11:38 AM PDT]
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    Manny

    Manny

    8/1/2012 6:48:30 PM Permalink
    ^ You know... Bungie as developers are free to do what THEY want. They are not bound to us. Sure they want our money, but they won't let fans restrict their creative freedom. While I agree more care should be taken with canon, there one thing to remeber. Halo is not our right to play. It's a privilege. They could end the series whenever and leave us with no more Halo ever again.
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    Citrus raptor

    Citrus raptor

    8/1/2012 6:20:47 PM Permalink
    [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Cmdr DaeFaron [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] the real Janaka Despite this threads ups and downs, it has, in the end, become exactly what I wanted. Nine pages in, and a flaming gorilla head, Bungie now has to know that there are just as many who aren't [i]fans[/i] of Reach, as there those who defend it, and that's all I ever wanted when posting in this thread; for Bungie to know. To ignore, or be aware of it in the future - is up to them, not me, not you. [b]@Ols Salty27:[/b] that's pretty much what I feel. Reminds me of what Sorkin did to The West Wing; he drove it into a fairly uncomfortable place, so that there would be annoying consequences when trying to drive it out.[/quote] Acting as if Bungie was ignorant of the forums when Reach was released won't change the fact they've known this for a while. Either way, it's no longer up to them if Reach is canon or not.[/quote] Good, let this be a reminder, let them never forget. That's the least we can do. We don't want to be that kind of relaxed fans do we, the kind who doesn't care, the kind who accepts anything and everything? What help would that be, would it be better if we praised everything they released even though it might have been disappointing in some aspects? Or is that the problem--speaking for myself, that I care too much, that I get disappointed when one of my favourite developers release a game that collides with their previous titles? Maybe... Also, what I meant with "[i]in the future[/i]", had nothing to do with Reach, but with whatever they do next. Apparently that did not come across?..
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    Cmdr DaeFaron

    Cmdr DaeFaron

    8/1/2012 5:43:52 PM Permalink
    [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] the real Janaka Despite this threads ups and downs, it has, in the end, become exactly what I wanted. Nine pages in, and a flaming gorilla head, Bungie now has to know that there are just as many who aren't [i]fans[/i] of Reach, as there those who defend it, and that's all I ever wanted when posting in this thread; for Bungie to know. To ignore, or be aware of it in the future - is up to them, not me, not you. [b]@Ols Salty27:[/b] that's pretty much what I feel. Reminds me of what Sorkin did to The West Wing; he drove it into a fairly uncomfortable place, so that there would be annoying consequences when trying to drive it out.[/quote] Acting as if Bungie was ignorant of the forums when Reach was released won't change the fact they've known this for a while. Either way, it's no longer up to them if Reach is canon or not.
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    Acer 9000

    Acer 9000

    8/1/2012 10:35:29 AM Permalink
    I've never read the books, so this canon issue is irrelevant for me. As far as I'am concern, it's canon. It happen before Halo:CE.
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    Citrus raptor

    Citrus raptor

    8/1/2012 9:17:37 AM Permalink
    Despite this threads ups and downs, it has, in the end, become exactly what I wanted. Nine pages in, and a flaming gorilla head, Bungie now has to know that there are just as many who aren't [i]fans[/i] of Reach, as there those who defend it, and that's all I ever wanted when posting in this thread; for Bungie to know. To ignore, or be aware of it in the future - is up to them, not me, not you. [b]@Ols Salty27:[/b] that's pretty much what I feel. Reminds me of what Sorkin did to The West Wing; he drove it into a fairly uncomfortable place, so that there would be annoying consequences when trying to drive it out.
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    Cmdr DaeFaron

    Cmdr DaeFaron

    8/1/2012 4:05:27 AM Permalink
    [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Xd00999 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] cameo_cream [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Xd00999 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] OrderedComa (Daefaron, I think you have that list of UNSC war assets on Reach don't you? Would you mind posting that if you can?) [/quote] [url=http://www.bungie.net/projects/reach/article.aspx?ucc=intel&cid=27032]Here you go.[/url][/quote] Yet, when the Covenant were attacking Reach in the game, none of that existed. People can't say that many ships were [i]off station[/i].[/quote] Yet, when the Covenant were attacking Reach in the book, none of that existed. You can't say that 385 million soldiers with 11000 aircraft and 58000 land assets can allow the Covenant to take over Reach in 2 hours. [/quote] And by "hundreds" of dropships in the first groups landing, not even a cruiser.
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    Old Salty27

    Old Salty27

    8/1/2012 3:38:45 AM Permalink
    Now, with all that being said I don't hate Reach. It's a genuinely fun game that I still play. Multiplayer,Invasion, Firefight and Forge are among the best in the series. The graphics are still incredible for a seven year old console, despite some annoying motion blur and framerate dips every now and then. Bungie put a herculean effort in these aspects of the game and those game types are where Reach shines. It just would have been nice if just a little bit more effort was put into the campaign's story.
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    Old Salty27

    Old Salty27

    8/1/2012 3:29:30 AM Permalink
    I've said this before in a few threads; In my honest opinion Bungie seemed like they didn't really want to continue the series after Halo-3. To gain their freedom from Microsoft they had to make two more Halo games; ODST and Reach. ODST was a pleasant surprise, it was meant to be a 4 hour DLC and turned into a full game when the team working on it went overboard. Now Reach on the other hand genuinely seems like a game, at least from a story telling perspective Bungie didn't want to make. Bungie essentially had three options in terms of story telling in making what would become Reach. Make Halo-4;in a vidoc they said they thought about it for about five minutes and shot the idea down since they wouldn't be able to continue the story themselves. Make a side story, like ODST, except on a bigger scale. Then lastly there was the option they went with, make a prequel. Now, we all know Halo already had a official canonical prequel Eric Nylund's the Fall of Reach novel. Despite not initially being commissioned by Bungie, the story stuck to the series bible and the writers at Bungie liked the story enough that they intergrated story elements, characters and tech from the book into Halo-2(Super MACs), lots of references and quotes from Cortana in Halo-3(Halsey's conversations with John and certain UNSC ships being rated for atmosphere(Pillar of Autumn). With all that in mind, why not just make a game based on the Fall of Reach with a slightly expanded story? Bungie has stated several times they are not in the business in making remakes or retelling a story in their universe that's been told in another medium, so Reach had to have a new plot. So, they developed new characters and a new story to bridge the gap from Reach to CE, even if it broke some pre-established story canon. The ironic thing about Reach's plot and the big breaks in story canon is that so much of the plot, settings and characters stem from the expanded canon it disregards; Halsey and the Spartan-3s to name a few examples. Considering how much effort Bungie put into all the details, story elements and direct references to the expanded canon in the games, it seems odd they'd collectively say screw it when it came to Reach's plot. But there is something some people on the forum haven't considered; the folks a Bungie have said on several occasions they really wanted Halo-3 to be the end of the series, at least for a while. They knew the series wasn't really thier's anymore and more than likely knew about some of the story changes MS had in mind for continuing the series. I wouldn't be surprised if some of Bungie's writers weren't happy about 343 fundamentally changing a lot of the main plots of the series; the Human-Forerunner connection, along with bringing back characters from the dead like Spark, despite him being lasered into a million pieces and the bewildering number of spartan-2s that either should be dead or shouldn't exist period(Spartan-Black and all the other Spartans that supposedly died in augmentation). If I were in their shoes, I probably wouldn't have put much effort into the story either since MS probably would have changed it eventually to better suit their own story lines. They were also probably desperate to finally make a new game with new characters and a new story after more than a decade of making Halo. Reach with all it's flaws was the cost of that freedom. No this is just an opinion. I could be completely wrong, but if what I said is right then it kind of explains why Reach was such a half hearted effort from a studio the normally does anything but.
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    MC Confusing

    MC Confusing

    8/1/2012 2:30:18 AM Permalink
    [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] cameo_cream I don't accept it as canon because it -blam!-s on so many other games canon. It makes far more sense to just ignore that one game, than to try and find reasons for all the -blam!- that Reach created. Plus I hate the game.... so yeah[/quote] Reach may have been trash both gameplay and story wise, but it's not up to you, me, or anybody else here to decide what's canon.
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    Macharius

    Macharius

    8/1/2012 2:29:19 AM Permalink
    [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] cameo_cream [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Xd00999 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] OrderedComa (Daefaron, I think you have that list of UNSC war assets on Reach don't you? Would you mind posting that if you can?) [/quote] [url=http://www.bungie.net/projects/reach/article.aspx?ucc=intel&cid=27032]Here you go.[/url][/quote] Yet, when the Covenant were attacking Reach in the game, none of that existed. People can't say that many ships were [i]off station[/i].[/quote] Yet, when the Covenant were attacking Reach in the book, none of that existed. You can't say that 385 million soldiers with 11000 aircraft and 58000 land assets can allow the Covenan to take over Reach in 2 hours.
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