[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Seggi31 The United States has brought the Afghan people the freedom of democracy. It has brought the Iraqis and Kurds freedom from the persecution and totalitarianism of the Ba'ath state. The greatest threat to human rights in Afghanistan, right now, is compromise with the Taliban. The failures of American intervention do not point to a problem with interventionism per se, but a problem with the techniques, policy, and quivering contradictions that restrict the possibilities of such policy.[/quote]Can you really call it democracy when it flows from the barrel of a gun? It was a coerced choice, to force democracy on them, and shows how we have made as much a mockery of the self-determination of the afghan people as their previous dictators had

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Locke357 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Seggi31 Fox news? Lol. I'm actually a pretty firm liberal. I'd describe myself as a social democrat, but, before that, I'd describe myself as a rationalist, and I will say with confidence that sympathies with Islam as it is practiced in the middle east are derived either from ignorance or a sense of guilt. Yours might be a bit of both. [url=http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/wests-liberals-fail-to-help-says-hirsi-ali-20120415-1x1jh.html]Relevant[/url]. Liberals as a collective need to stop giving a bad name to the liberalism I love and stand up for the rights being crushed by Islam.[/quote]Well I better understand your position now, thanks, though you still seem quite misguided. You see, you keep referencing to the concept of "Islam" as being an inherently oppressive force used equally in many countries, where in reality, just like christianity, how it's applied is defined solely by the people and the leaders of the people. While undoubtedly the people in many countries throughout the world suffer from a lack of basic human rights and are being oppressed by their governments, like the people in afghanistan were, it is clear that the US model of intervention has worked. Have we brought freedom to these people? No. Have we brought rights to these people? No. All we have done is militarily occupy them for over a decade, completely removing and semblance of self-determination and sovereignty they had. These people needs human rights, and need freedom. On that we agree. I simply hold that the US method of intervention clearly has not worked, and these people we're trying to help have received neither. [/quote] The United States has brought the Afghan people the freedom of democracy. It has brought the Iraqis and Kurds freedom from the persecution and totalitarianism of the Ba'ath state. The greatest threat to human rights in Afghanistan, right now, is compromise with the Taliban. The failures of American intervention do not point to a problem with interventionism per se, but a problem with the techniques, policy, and quivering contradictions that restrict the possibilities of such policy. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] coolmike699 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Seggi31 Liberals as a collective need to stop giving a bad name to the liberalism I love and stand up for the rights being crushed by Islam.[/quote] No, we need to stand up for the rights being crushed by dictators, not Islam. There are billions of people practicing Islam who don't infringe on anyone's rights, and people of other religions and beliefs do that too. [/quote] Islamism is a far more powerful force than Christian dominionism in the Liberal West. If you're born in the Islamic world, you're pretty much guaranteed to be, to some degree, under the authoritarian rule of Islamist law. [Edited on 04.19.2012 9:40 AM PDT]

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Seggi31 Liberals as a collective need to stop giving a bad name to the liberalism I love and stand up for the rights being crushed by Islam.[/quote] No, we need to stand up for the rights being crushed by dictators, not Islam. There are billions of people practicing Islam who don't infringe on anyone's rights, and people of other religions and beliefs do that too.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Seggi31 Fox news? Lol. I'm actually a pretty firm liberal. I'd describe myself as a social democrat, but, before that, I'd describe myself as a rationalist, and I will say with confidence that sympathies with Islam as it is practiced in the middle east are derived either from ignorance or a sense of guilt. Yours might be a bit of both. [url=http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/wests-liberals-fail-to-help-says-hirsi-ali-20120415-1x1jh.html]Relevant[/url]. Liberals as a collective need to stop giving a bad name to the liberalism I love and stand up for the rights being crushed by Islam.[/quote]Well I better understand your position now, thanks, though you still seem quite misguided. You see, you keep referencing to the concept of "Islam" as being an inherently oppressive force used equally in many countries, where in reality, just like christianity, how it's applied is defined solely by the people and the leaders of the people. While undoubtedly the people in many countries throughout the world suffer from a lack of basic human rights and are being oppressed by their governments, like the people in afghanistan were, it is clear that the US model of intervention hasn't worked. Have we brought freedom to these people? No. Have we brought rights to these people? No. All we have done is militarily occupy them for over a decade, completely removing and semblance of self-determination any sovereignty they had. These people needs human rights, and need freedom. On that we agree. I simply hold that the US method of intervention clearly has not worked, and these people we're trying to help have received neither. [Edited on 04.19.2012 9:36 AM PDT]

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Opinion [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Seggi31 Those in the developed world need to protect those outside of it from their society's barbaric customs.[/quote] Even if those who you deem to need protecting don't want your country's protection or for you to be anywhere near their country? Also, it's thinking like that which engenders animosity and makes people resort to terrorism as American "help" often means American interference in their society and the corruption of their culture.[/quote] I'm not going to let you conflate protection of minorities in the developing world with the specific practices of the constituent forces of the United States military. I don't endorse the killing of civilians or the negligence that is often (Or perhaps only occasionally, depending on where you draw those lines) shown by American soldiers in Afghanistan, but to say that those despicable Islamist bastards are simply fighting for freedom is not only ignorant, but reprehensible. They're not fighting to free Arabs, they're fighting to be free to enslave them. [Edited on 04.19.2012 9:22 AM PDT]

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Seggi31 Those in the developed world need to protect those outside of it from their society's barbaric customs.[/quote] Even if those who you deem to need protecting don't want your country's protection or for you to be anywhere near their country? Also, it's thinking like that which engenders animosity and makes people resort to terrorism as American "help" often means American interference in their society and the corruption of their culture.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] F41L5 4T L1Fe This war isn't about fighting for your rights at all, the country of Afghanistan poses no military threat to the United States at all. May I ask, what right is it of yours to impose your culture upon countries who do not want it?[/quote] I'm not talking about my rights, I'm talking about the rights of minorities in the Arab world. If you'd actually paid attention to my post, you'd have realised that. You see, as somebody living comfortably in a safe, liberal western society, I can live freely without imposition, and in fact attempt to act reciprocally with society for the benefit of the general population. Those in most of the Arab world have no such right: if you're not a Muslim (And, in many cases, if you're Sunni/Shi'ite in a region in which the other predominates), you're not a person. Those in the developed world need to protect those outside of it from their society's barbaric customs. [Edited on 04.19.2012 9:10 AM PDT]

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Seggi31 Fox news? Lol. I'm actually a pretty firm liberal. I'd describe myself as a social democrat, but, before that, I'd describe myself as a rationalist, and I will say with confidence that sympathies with Islam as it is practiced in the middle east are derived either from ignorance or a sense of guilt. Yours might be a bit of both. [url=http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/wests-liberals-fail-to-help-says-hirsi-ali-20120415-1x1jh.html]Relevant[/url]. Liberals as a collective need to stop giving a bad name to the liberalism I love and stand up for the rights being crushed by Islam.[/quote] This war isn't about fighting for your rights at all, the country of Afghanistan poses no military threat to the United States at all. May I ask, what right is it of yours to impose your culture upon countries who do not want it?

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Locke357 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Seggi31 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Locke357 Bravo good sir, obviously by DARING to sympathize with the cause of a people invaded and occupied by a superpower for over a decade, he has either proven himeslf to be a "militant muslim" or a "stupid liberal." Good show surrrr HURRR DUURRRRRRR DERP[/quote] Not a stupid liberal, a stupid liberal who romanticises the barbarism of Islam. That's a very important distinction, and if you think militant Muslims are fighting for freedom, you're as deluded as he is. Grow up.[/quote]It's very clear from you use of the following language: "militant muslim" "stupid liberal" "barbarism of Islam" That you are, as of now, incapable of having an informed rational discussion on this topic. I would suggest educating yourself more on this issue and watching less Fox News[/quote] Fox news? Lol. I'm actually a pretty firm liberal. I'd describe myself as a social democrat, but, before that, I'd describe myself as a rationalist, and I will say with confidence that sympathies with Islam as it is practiced in the middle east are derived either from ignorance or a sense of guilt. Yours might be a bit of both. [url=http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/wests-liberals-fail-to-help-says-hirsi-ali-20120415-1x1jh.html]Relevant[/url]. Liberals as a collective need to stop giving a bad name to the liberalism I love and stand up for the rights being crushed by Islam. [Edited on 04.19.2012 8:43 AM PDT]

Don't let a couple soldiers represent the whole army. And never assume that the terrorists have the backing of most their country, because they don't.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Seggi31 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Locke357 Bravo good sir, obviously by DARING to sympathize with the cause of a people invaded and occupied by a superpower for over a decade, he has either proven himeslf to be a "militant muslim" or a "stupid liberal." Good show surrrr HURRR DUURRRRRRR DERP[/quote] Not a stupid liberal, a stupid liberal who romanticises the barbarism of Islam. That's a very important distinction, and if you think militant Muslims are fighting for freedom, you're as deluded as he is. Grow up.[/quote]It's very clear from you use of the following language: "militant muslim" "stupid liberal" "barbarism of Islam" That you are, as of now, incapable of having an informed rational discussion on this topic. I would suggest educating yourself more on this issue and watching less Fox News

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Locke357 Bravo good sir, obviously by DARING to sympathize with the cause of a people invaded and occupied by a superpower for over a decade, he has either proven himeslf to be a "militant muslim" or a "stupid liberal." Good show surrrr HURRR DUURRRRRRR DERP[/quote] Not a stupid liberal, a stupid liberal who romanticises the barbarism of Islam. That's a very important distinction, and if you think militant Muslims are fighting for freedom, you're as deluded as he is. Grow up.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Seggi31 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Keevomeal97 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] The 13 Doctors ITT; Successfully brainwashed people.[/quote] I'm literally ashamed to be categorized in the same group as the idiots in this thread. You are all blind sheep. The United States has murdered millions of middle-eastern civilians in their righteous quest for "peace". Yet the ones fighting for true freedom, the so-called "terrorists" are the evil ones. They're not the monsters. We are.[/quote] You have [i]no clue[/i] what you're talking about. You're either a militant Muslim yourself, or one of those stupid Western liberals that romanticises barbarism to compensate for the guilt they feel for their own ignorance and fortune.[/quote]*claps* Bravo good sir, obviously by DARING to sympathize with the cause of a people invaded and occupied by a superpower for over a decade, he has either proven himeslf to be a "militant muslim" or a "stupid liberal." Good show surrrr HURRR DUURRRRRRR DERP

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] dudeman7883 I dont see a problem, theyre bad people!!! If it was some one with an actual soul...maybe it would matter.[/quote]It's -blam!- like this, America

I dont see a problem, theyre bad people!!! If it was some one with an actual soul...maybe it would matter.

Like the article said, marines need more discipline.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] CrabbySpider The thing is you dont see any other Army doing this anywhere in the world. Even the said 'terrorists' dont stoop to that low.[/quote] I stopped reading there.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Keevomeal97 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] The 13 Doctors ITT; Successfully brainwashed people.[/quote] I'm literally ashamed to be categorized in the same group as the idiots in this thread. You are all blind sheep. The United States has murdered millions of middle-eastern civilians in their righteous quest for "peace". Yet the ones fighting for true freedom, the so-called "terrorists" are the evil ones. They're not the monsters. We are.[/quote] You have [i]no clue[/i] what you're talking about. You're either a militant Muslim yourself, or one of those stupid Western liberals that romanticises barbarism to compensate for the guilt they feel for their own ignorance and fortune.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Keevomeal97 The United States has murdered millions of middle-eastern civilians [/quote] Now now now, no need to exaggerate. There haven't been millions killed in the Middle East in recent wars. Nor would I call an accidental civilian casualty a murder.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] The 13 Doctors ITT; Successfully brainwashed people.[/quote] I'm literally ashamed to be categorized in the same group as the idiots in this thread. You are all blind sheep. The United States has murdered millions of middle-eastern civilians in their righteous quest for "peace". Yet the ones fighting for true freedom, the so-called "terrorists" are the evil ones. They're not the monsters. We are.

82nd Airborne? I am very disappointed.

This thread is still alive?

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Just A Bieber [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] I ColdEmbrace I This thread is still chugging along. lol[/quote] Da hell happened to my thread broski.[/quote] "Night Flood" took over. It started off nicely. I even threw some kindling in there.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] I ColdEmbrace I This thread is still chugging along. lol[/quote] Da hell happened to my thread broski.

This thread is still chugging along. lol

It's no worse than the thousands of innocent civilians they've killed since invading Afghanistan.