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AbysmalMax

AbysmalMax

3/25/2012 10:40:39 PM
Hard to tell. Including Protheans and Forerunners and Mass Relays and Rings (LOL) Edit: Precursors too... Edit 2: ALL OF THE STUFFS IN THE UNIVERSES EVEN TREES [Edited on 03.25.2012 2:43 PM PDT]
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    Hujgup
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    The Moniter
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    Swiftkillswitch3

    Swiftkillswitch3

    5/14/2012 4:08:16 AM Permalink
    Halo. [u]By far.[/u] [i]Hands down.[/i] [b]No contest.[/b] Forerunners and Precursors are god damn geniuses who possibly made both humanity and the Forerunners, know how to craft life from nothing, and the Forerunners were getting stellar-collapse started. The UNSC would sit back as they watch the Forerunners and Precursors walk in on Mass Effect and the Reapers, neither of which stand any more of a chance than an Infection Form against Chief.
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    King PWNinater

    King PWNinater

    5/14/2012 3:54:28 AM Permalink
    [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Kitten2012 @alex0612 I suggest you read the topic, and then respond to the debate instead of waiting for someone else to repeat the same thing they already posted.[/quote]I think Halo would because of the Forerunners and precursers alone. Added with the Flood, Covenant and Humans would be forced -blam!- smex.
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    Kitten2012

    Kitten2012

    5/14/2012 3:51:57 AM Permalink
    @alex0612 I suggest you read the topic, and then respond to the debate instead of waiting for someone else to repeat the same thing they already posted.
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    King PWNinater
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    Kitten2012

    Kitten2012

    5/14/2012 3:39:28 AM Permalink
    @Ins3ktz A undifferentiated cell type is simply a cell that will eventualy gain the traditional functions of other cells as conditions improve, that it has not yet acquired. Simply put, it's an unclassified cellular structure. All that link says is the Flood are made if an cellular structure which cannot be compared to any traditional lifeform in the Halo universe. Instead it more closely resembles neurons or glial cellular structure in their functioning. Simply put, the cellular structure of Flood while constructed differently, is also of similar materials of other lifeforms they had encountered to draw a comparison. It's a fancy way of saying 'raised on an alien planet' similar to how the Turian and Humans differ with ambidextrous acid structures. In other words, the Flood have a decentralized body which acts as a giant cell, with everything being able to do everything needed to keep it alive. @Terrab Halo works by targeting the nervous system of life form, and renders them unable to perform the functions needed to keep the body alive. Simply having the makeup of organics integrated with your being does not make one susceptible. Reapers lack a nervous system and would be no more susceptible to Halo's firing than the Flood would be. [Edited on 05.13.2012 7:50 PM PDT]
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    wildnuke
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    Ins3ktz

    Ins3ktz

    5/13/2012 4:40:48 PM Permalink
    Sorry for reviving this thread, but people who say the Flood would be indoctrinated need to look at this. [url=http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/LF.Xx.3273_Flood_Super_Cell]They don't use traditional neurons. Try indoctrinating that.[/url]
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    Ghost10006

    Ghost10006

    5/13/2012 4:57:57 AM Permalink
    Once you bring in the whole precursor argument, everything is just laughably overpowered for the Halo Universe. Mass effect is still better though.
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    Zoomzoom97
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    Kitten2012

    Kitten2012

    5/13/2012 4:54:00 AM Permalink
    [quote]Put in the UNSC and Systems Alliance. A victory for the Systems Alliance. Count in Reapers and Forerunners, a Halo victory. Add Precursors... Destruction of Mass Effect Universe, 110%.[/quote] I pretty much agree with this final outcome, except I don't think the Alliance could win against the UNSC alone. Whilst their ships are superior to the UNSCM in terms of weapon output and have shields, Humanity only has a handful of Dreadnaughts whilst the UNSC has significantly more assets to better absorb damages. The Reapers depend on a lot of guesswork to fight, as their weapons pale in comparison to the Forerunners. They would need to indoctrinate a Gravemind and use their accumulated numbers over the years to break into innumerous fragment and implant themselves onto Forerunner worlds to indoctrinate as many as they could, hoping to create civil war. The Issue is going to be a bit more complex however, Reapers have been around for over a billion years, and there have been at least 20,000 extinction cycles- each of whom has their own Citadel space Empire and manpower. This easily translates into hundreds of trillions of people; a quick estimate places them at 120,000 trillions! (or 120 Quadrillion) assuming each cycle has 6 trillion people in it per extinction cycle- a conservative number in my opinion. Still, numbers alone will only get Mass Effect so far, it needs a combination of things to go its way before it can win over the forerunner. The Forerunner on the other hand has stupidly powerful ship designs. Even if these ships are the equivalent of a battleship's investment for WW2 combatants, a single fleet of 10 could dominate an enemy several times their own mathematical power. However, looking to the Leyte Gulf we can see an example of how a few large guns relative to the numerical ratio can be eventually overwhelmed. I think we need to solve just how many naval assets the Forerunner had, and what the structure of their fleets had been. A trillion Reapers could easily overwhelm a single Fortress class through accumulative firepower, but how many Fortresses did they have? What else would be in support of them, and how many? Halo will undoubtedly be substantially outnumberedeven with the substantial numbers of the sentinels. At the end of their existence their combined fleet s was said to number only a few thousand, so their actual number in their prime would likely be far greater, however also less than the combined Flood/Forunner order of battles which had also been in the thousands. This could mean as few as 14,000, or as many as 999,999 ships. Offensive Bia's comments could also be mere Human figures of speeches on the part of the writer. An AI would know instantaoiusly esactly how many vessles are seen or known, whilst the term "Thousands" is just an expression to mean a lot. Impposible to say either way, but it's more food for thought. Looking to Operation Barbarossa for a classic example of how one can use their superior numbers to overcome a superior foe, I think Mass Effect will be banking upon using their numbers to spread themselves out as much as possible. They would likely hope to draw small bits of Halo forces into numerically unfavorable engagements in an attempt to whittle them down. In a pitched engagement, Mass Effect will be at a fair disadvantage against Halo once the Human Empire and Forerunners bring their weaponry to bare, but no one ever fights on their opponents terms, I doubt Mass Effect would allow itself to be engaged without beliving victroy is possible. If at least one Gravemind cannot be indoctrinated, then its going to be an uphill battle for Mass Effect, but hardly an easy win for Halo given the unqiue talents of the Reapers and Mass Effect's sheer numbers. [Edited on 05.12.2012 9:11 PM PDT]
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    ROBERTO jh

    ROBERTO jh

    5/13/2012 12:41:33 AM Permalink
    [quote]and the fourerunners had thousands of worlds.[/quote] 3million planets were under their control. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Kitten2012 As for the substance's durability, what I said was also accurate, both from the lore's point of view and the application of science. For example, if we take persoz pendulum and find that an objects hardness is rated at 1,000 and crash an object that is rated at 500 against it with enough force to create 10J, the object in motion will likely break whilst the stationary object will not. However, if we apply metallurgy to increase that resilience to 1,000 as well and apply 100J, the stationary object will break, whilst the object in motion will likely only suffer minor stress in comparison. This process is applicable to anything including the allegedly indestructible Precursor buildings. Instead i present an alternative view, rather than indestructible in the traditional damage resilient point of view, it is possible they meant indestructible as nature itself is, using the law of conservation of energy as a premise. The shape and form of the material may change, but the mater of its construction cannot be destroyed. For example, when you eat an apple, your body converts the once physically round apple into calories. During its journey some of the calories is converted into fat, whilst other travel through the body, collecting unwanted material. At the end of the apple's saga in the person who ate it, it becomes mere atoms and carbons in the air, while others are converted into heat energy that had been exerted from the body as it is burned to fuel it and is now awaiting the next form it will eventually take. In the same sense, the apple was never destroyed, only warped to another form. Given what we know about the Precursors, that they are "one with the universe where nothing is ever destroyed", inspiration taken from Hinduism, it is not entirely unlikely that such a deeper way of thinking about placement would be so overthought, although still unlikely given the context of the are of a Forerunner's descriptions/narrative of the objects in half a page. Such a theory of universal equilibrium would then be arguably placing words into the Precursor's mouth, but would still be plausible I think. [/quote] You're applying real world physics to space magic. Put it this way. The final battle of the human Forerunner wars took place at an old Precursor hub world. The Forerunners, despite their ability to actually tear the surface of a planet clean off without even using a warship, took 50 years to defeat the humans there because they were using ancient Precursor structures as their bases. They would have to go in and fight the humans in close quarters since bombing them from orbit simply had no effect, a long grueling process when as you're doing that your navy is being shelled by equally overpowered anti ship cannons and enemy naval forces. Another example is Precursor structures being so old they have been recycled through a planet's crust on account of plate tectonics, through the very center of a planet itself and emerging after millions of years completely unharmed. If the books are anything to go by, it is consciousness incarnate. The thinking, breathing universe itself manifest physically. It is no possible to destroy them than it is to kill your soul. The distinction here is that the Precursors' own technology can be used to destroy them. The Halos' primary weapon is the reversal of neural physics, of their own metaphysical science. You are correct, a race with such technology is simply unbeatable by any means other than their own. The crew of the USS Voyager wouldn't even have been history when the Q were done with them had the Voyager not aquired Q weaponry to fight them. Invincible to all, but their own. It may be rediculous, but I don't make the rules. ME simply has no chance. [Edited on 05.12.2012 5:07 PM PDT]
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    SPC COMMANDO

    SPC COMMANDO

    5/13/2012 12:35:44 AM Permalink
    [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] SilentSnoFall Flood alone would kill everything in ME, also the fact that Halo has super soldiers and ships with slip space and don't require Mass Relays. Just send out battaleon squadrons to simultaneously wipe out the mass relays to limit movement and send in the flood for cleanup. /war[/quote] of course, destroying the mass relays would result in the destruction of most of the ME colonies too so...
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    mrT23xx
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    Terrab

    Terrab

    5/13/2012 12:02:29 AM Permalink
    Protheans really weren't that advanced. They were only a few decades ahead of ME races... a hundred years at best. It would be an interesting match if the Reapers/Forerunners were not included, but with them involved the Forerunners would win handily. It's just not a competition. Forerunners were the type of aliens that bent space and time, constructed compact universes and built weapons that did effectively what the Reapers intended to do that were automated and took minutes instead of decades. That said, would be interesting to see Covies + Humans against Geth + Citadel/Veil Races Edit: And I'm sorry to remind you of this folks, but Reapers are partially biological. Remember that whole plot twist where they slushed humans down to genetic paste and pumped them into Reapers? Yeah, there's plenty of gooey bits inside of a Reaper for a Halo burst to affect. Sorry. [Edited on 05.12.2012 4:03 PM PDT]
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    Kitten2012

    Kitten2012

    5/12/2012 11:50:27 PM Permalink
    @hotshot That's' a bit liberal of an interpretation of what a Gravemind is, it's simply a node concentration for telepathy with a far greater degree of intelligence that is known to exist, possibly only rivaled by the Precursors, the Geth, and Reapers. They are the equivalent of a way-way street of the Geth's networking ability, whilst possessing supreme intellect from the accumulation of mass. Killing one would be counter to what indoctrination is supposed to achieve-an ally. I highly doubt that the Reapers would simply kill it, on the contrary, they would sacrifice quite a bit to capture one to indoctrinate as the benefits it would grant would be invaluable. [quote]Saying reapers or geth are tier 1 or tier 0 is retarded. They never accomplished something close to Forerunner level. They are below the Covenant.[/quote] I don't think I need to chastise you for being rude, but i do suggest you reread what I said. I said by Forerunner tiring the Reapers and Geth with their Reaper upgrades would be categorized as Tier0 AI. Forerunner technology tiring states that an AI who achieves full sentience are categorized as tier 1, whilst the requirements for tier 0 is to progress the "evolution" of life, something the Reapers have been doing since Mass Effect 2. Intergalactic travel, another sign of such advancement would also be theoretically possible given Reaper Mass Relay technology. I made no mention of technologies beyond this being on par with the Precursors or Forerunner, stating that their weapons and shielding are far below Forerunner levels, though your belief that they are in anyway inferior to the convent is just not true as I have shown in prior posts. In a nutshell, Mass Effect pre-Thanix Dreadnoughts have a significantly higher damage output than UNSC ships during an engagement, whilst also having significant shield strength- an attribute not shared by UNSC ships. The ME codex states it requires three Turian Dreadnoughts to have a 50% chance of winning against a single Reaper capital ship. On average, it takes the same number of UNSC vessels of equal class to bring down a single Covenant ship. This means that at worst the Reapers have the equivalent combat ability of the Covenant on a per per ship same-class basis. [quote]We don't know how Precursors were defeated by Forerunners; it's all baseless speculation on your part. For all we know the Forerunners used Precursor weapons against them. [/quote] I really think you need to cool off, you're aggressively rude attitude towards others is uncalled for. Insults like "Retarded" and "Baseless speculation" should have no place in a conversation between people, especially as I've made no inflammatory comment against you. I've stated nothing that isn't part of the Lore of Halo when i spoke of the Precursor war. The Precursors had been driven from the galaxy by the Forerunners, forerunners classified themselves as tier1 whilst the Precursors as tier0. This means a technologically inferior force somehow defeated a technologically superior force. There is no other way to interpret the situation apart from the details of the war. As for the substance's durability, what I said was also accurate, both from the lore's point of view and the application of science. For example, if we take persoz pendulum and find that an objects hardness is rated at 1,000 and crash an object that is rated at 500 against it with enough force to create 10J, the object in motion will likely break whilst the stationary object will not. However, if we apply metallurgy to increase that resilience to 1,000 as well and apply 100J, the stationary object will break, whilst the object in motion will likely only suffer minor stress in comparison. This process is applicable to anything including the allegedly indestructible Precursor buildings. Instead i present an alternative view, rather than indestructible in the traditional damage resilient point of view, it is possible they meant indestructible as nature itself is, using the law of conservation of energy as a premise. The shape and form of the material may change, but the mater of its construction cannot be destroyed. For example, when you eat an apple, your body converts the once physically round apple into calories. During its journey some of the calories is converted into fat, whilst other travel through the body, collecting unwanted material. At the end of the apple's saga in the person who ate it, it becomes mere atoms and carbons in the air, while others are converted into heat energy that had been exerted from the body as it is burned to fuel it and is now awaiting the next form it will eventually take. In the same sense, the apple was never destroyed, only warped to another form. Given what we know about the Precursors, that they are "one with the universe where nothing is ever destroyed", inspiration taken from Hinduism, it is not entirely unlikely that such a deeper way of thinking about placement would be so overthought, although still unlikely given the context of the are of a Forerunner's descriptions/narrative of the objects in half a page. Such a theory of universal equilibrium would then be arguably placing words into the Precursor's mouth, but would still be plausible I think. This is one reason why the universe will eventually die, although the amount of energy and mater have not changed since its creation, nor will it ever, it will eventually become so spread out that it can no longer reform into something else. The laws of energy conservation states that energy cannot be created nor destroyed, but it can change forms. So the idea of an indestructible object in the conventional sense is just not possible as it would violate numerous lore establishments and established laws of science. An indestructible object worn as armor would render that person undefeatable in combat, same for any war asset. So either the term "indestructible" is not to be taken conventionally, or as would be more likely given the context, the Forerunners had just been unable to destroy them, just as a caveman in animal hide would believe composite armor indestructible. Perhaps Halo 4 and the third book in the Forerunner trilogy will shed more light on them, as of now we only have scraps to guess upon. Perhaps the Forerunner developed some sort of anti-Precursor super weapon? It is even possible that the Precursors had not even been defeated in the conventional sense, rather they may have chosen to abandon the Milky Way after witnessing their 'prized' Human 'creation' distinguish themselves against the Flood by driving them from the Galaxy (or so they thought) at the cost of getting exploited and obliterated by the Forerunner, a species the Precursors must have considered far less worthy of a successor. From the Precursor's point of view, Humanity placed the fate of all life in the Milky-way above their own survival, while the Forerunner thought of only their own gain. Enraged by the Precursor rejection, the Forerunner attacks the Precursors who retaliate by judging their efforts in the Milky Way as a failure, and unleash the Flood upon the Forerunners before leaving with the assumption that the Flood would devour the Galaxy. Fast-forward to the end of the Human-Covenant war, and the Precursors are shocked to learn Humanity survived after all, so they return for Halo 4, possibly to redouble Human 'evolution' to allow them to eventually reclaim their place and claim the mantle. "Driven from the Galaxy" may just be simple Forerunner propaganda, or it may be literal, given the limited information we have on what happened any guess is as good as the next. Such a possibility does not seem so liberal of a guess to me, unless the Precursors had been quite limited in number. A species that had existed for as long as they did does not become so complacent that they ignore the possibility of warfare with others, especially younger races who think more with emotion and judge the unknown with hostility. I think it's also highly unlikely that Precursorian presence in the Milky-Way had been their only presence in the universe. It would be a strong possibility that they had 'teams' in as many Galaxies as they could, each seeding life and developing them. Some even speculate that the Flood and Precursor are one-in-the-same, with the Precursor 'evolving' into the Flood, although I have issues with this idea.
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    SilentSnoFall

    SilentSnoFall

    5/12/2012 11:17:14 PM Permalink
    Flood alone would kill everything in ME, also the fact that Halo has super soldiers and ships with slip space and don't require Mass Relays. Just send out battaleon squadrons to simultaneously wipe out the mass relays to limit movement and send in the flood for cleanup. /war
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    Quantum
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    Ins3ktz

    Ins3ktz

    5/12/2012 11:13:45 PM Permalink
    [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] SPC COMMANDO I think i have the knock out punch for this debate. Mass Effect 3 ending. Halo wins.[/quote] The knock out punch was said the first time a person mentioned the word "Precursor". Now you're just dancing over ME's grave.
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    SPC COMMANDO
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    FOX NEWS

    FOX NEWS

    5/12/2012 9:01:39 PM Permalink
    You ME fans still beating this horse? Haven't you realized that the Forerunners trash anything ME throws at them? /logic
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    Manny

    Manny

    5/12/2012 8:44:31 PM Permalink
    You know, to counter act the "indoctrination" of the Reapers the Flood could just be let loose in the ME universe. Then the Forerunners build a Halo array in the ME universe, fire them, and it's game over. The ME universe is wiped of lie (except for the geth, reapers are still part organic so they die), and the Flood dies of starvation. Assuming there is a portal for interuniversal warfare. If it is one universe where the elements of both universes have been placed in, the Precursors stroll in and wreak everything.
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    Miles Of Blood

    Miles Of Blood

    5/12/2012 8:41:56 PM Permalink
    Oh look, [i]this[/i] thread again... OT: Halo, because Precursors, Forerunners, Ancient Humans, Ancient San Shyuum, Anci-... Halo, Because of everything pre-dating the Halo-Present time.
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    Splendid Dust

    Splendid Dust

    5/12/2012 8:35:44 PM Permalink
    I realize I'm beat. Thanks for telling me otherwise. Now that I think about it I can see why.
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