I love you Hylebos! give me a day to soak this in, then inteligent post.

I'll admit now that I did NOT read the entirety of the original 4 posts... after playing halo classic, I'm SO grateful for AL being in the game! I'm sick and tired of grenade-spammers and AL gives me the option to nullify that annoyance! it also stops those pesky people that back in Halo 3 would only run up to you and stick your face and ONLY stick your face. I'm all for armor lock and it's current condition! (and for those that never played the beta, AL was seriously OP!!)

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] SD2522 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Razz_Pitazz [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] SD2522 How is it fair to make Plasma Grenades the exception to the rule of Armor Lock? I could go into why Armor Lock is unbalanced and abused by users but with this situation Armor Lock is behaving as intended. The Sticky is neutralized and sent off a distance to (ideally) cause as little damage as possible.[/quote] it is not the exception by far it's all about timing. A player can still die despite activating AL if they activate it too late. Rockets, grenades, head shots, swords etc can all hurt and kill a player who has activated AL even a fraction of a second too late. It only makes sense that since a sticky sticks, it should stay stuck. Activating AL late doesn't [b]negate a rockets splash damage, it shouldn't negate adhesives.[/b][/quote] That's two different things you're talking about. Rocket damage and it's splash are instant, stickies take a second to detonate when stuck. It's not my fault I don't have to react as quickly to something that's been pretty much consistent in the series as it's not my fault a new mechanic changes the way the game is played. So again, why should Stickies be the exception to the rule?[/quote] Alright. It's not your fault. It's Bungies. In the idea of balanced play (which is what all multiplayer games actually strive for to be successful and fun) you need give and take with absolutely everything. If there is an advantage to something there needs to be a disadvantage as well, maybe not necessarily immediately attributed to the same "thing" but somehow. This is why most maps are made the way they are, with power weapons spread out and carefully picked to balance one another out, differentiating high/low grounds, choke points etc. AA's are (supposed to be) the same way. -Sprint makes you run and jump further, you can use it multiple times in different time intervals until the meter runs out. Drawbacks are you can't use a weapon. -Evade is a quick paced roll, allowed two uses before recharge. Again no weapon and difficult maneuvering. -Active Camo makes you invisible based on speed and action and jams nearby enemy radars. You can use this ability multiple times in different time intervals until the meter runs out. Drawbacks include lack of sound, motion sensor disruption, and the need to move very slowly to actually be camouflaged. -Drop Shield is a protective bubble. Nothing goes in and nothing goes out. Drawbacks are one time use until the meter recharges, the fact that it is stationary, and with enough damage it will drop. -Hologram is a copy of yourself that also adds a blip to the motion sensor. Drawbacks are that its a one-time use until the meter recharges, it only moves linearly, and has obvious visual cues to suggest its existence as a hologram (flickering, stationary stance, continuous movement along walls, lack of heat signature through unscoped Sniper) -Jet Pack allows the player to travel vertically to allow quicker routes to certain areas as well as a higher y-axis of strategy and maneuvering, and has a feature to allow one to slow their decent if the meter is dry. Several uses in different time intervals until the meter runs out. Drawbacks generally consist of limited flight time, highly exposed position and a need for caution when using it due to fall damage. -Armor Lock prevents any and all damage that is thrown a players way as long as it is active. When a player comes out from Armor Lock an EMP is released that immobilizes vehicles and shields of any enemy in its immediate vicinity. A player can destroy a speeding vehicle. Armor lock has the ability to deflect high velocity objects such as grenades and rockets. A player is allowed to move the camera while Armor lock is active, and once out the player instantly faces the same direction. A player is allowed to use this ability twice before it is completely drained in 3 second intervals or less or for up to a full 6 seconds at once. Players shields can recharge in this state. Drawbacks are the player cannot move leaving him vulnerable to an execution set up, and must be on a solid surface. If we can agree that the above list is true (please edify if it is believed otherwise) than allow to break these pro's and con's into a point value system. Keep in mind the idea of fair and balanced game play, so these values should be relatively close to 0. Number of uses will be included, +1 for several, 0 for limited, and -1 for one time. -Sprint: +3-1= +2 -Evade: +1-2= -1 -Active Camo: +3-3= 0 -Drop Shield: +1-3= -2 -Hologram: +1-1= 0 (its a hologram) -Jet Pack: +3-3= 0 -Armor Lock: +5-2= +3 ( for the record this includes invulnerability, EMP, vehicular destruction, deflection, instant directional change upon exit, immobility and geographical restrictions.) Now +1 difference may not seem like alot, but if you add up the differences between the AA's excluding armor lock you come up with this: Overall pro's=+12 Overall Con's=-13 Total= -1 Add Armor Lock it turns to: +17-15=+2 This now actually adds a 3 point difference. The idea is that the further away from 0, the more unbalanced it is. Armor Lock beats the other AA's by +1, and tips the scale of all AA's as a whole by +3. Making it unbalanced. So no it's not your fault that an OP mechanic was put in the game. It's not your fault for exploiting it. It's not your fault for using it to it's fullest potential. However my argument was and still is completely relevant. If you AL a speeding vehicle and the vehicle splatters you, the assumption is you used it too late. If you AL a rocket coming at your face and it kills you, the assumption is you used it too late. If you see a grenade and use AL but it still kills you, the assumption is you used it too late. If you AL a sword lunger but it goes through the assumption... you get it. Basically, Armor Lock was intended and is mainly used for preventative care. You use it before the danger is within range and your safe. If you are stuck with a Plasma Grenade it has well surpassed that range. Activating Armor Lock at this point will shed the grenade and send it flying elsewhere (sometimes into the attacker), not to be confused with deflection which repels an object that hits the target after an activated Armor Lock. This is not preventative care, this is negating. At no other point does Armor Lock actually negate something. In fact Plasma Grenades already are the exception to Armor Lock, they are the only weapon that Armor Lock negates. Edit: Also, ever died of supercombine while attempting an Armor Lock? [Edited on 04.28.2011 3:23 AM PDT]

To long !!! did not read!!!

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Razz_Pitazz [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] SD2522 How is it fair to make Plasma Grenades the exception to the rule of Armor Lock? I could go into why Armor Lock is unbalanced and abused by users but with this situation Armor Lock is behaving as intended. The Sticky is neutralized and sent off a distance to (ideally) cause as little damage as possible.[/quote] it is not the exception by far it's all about timing. A player can still die despite activating AL if they activate it too late. Rockets, grenades, head shots, swords etc can all hurt and kill a player who has activated AL even a fraction of a second too late. It only makes sense that since a sticky sticks, it should stay stuck. Activating AL late doesn't [b]negate a rockets splash damage, it shouldn't negate adhesives.[/b][/quote] That's two different things you're talking about. Rocket damage and it's splash are instant, stickies take a second to detonate when stuck. It's not my fault I don't have to react as quickly to something that's been pretty much consistent in the series as it's not my fault a new mechanic changes the way the game is played. So again, why should Stickies be the exception to the rule?

i would feel as though anyone who actually took the time to read your posts would agree fully with you. i certainly agree with what you have wrote and enjoyed the well written post as intelligence can be scare on here

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] angello22 It does have it's logic. It does make sense, since plasma grenades BURN into your armor, they literally STICK to you. Now pay attention right here. That 3000° blazing blue ball melts with your armor, it adheres to you, through your shields. This difference between temperatures is extreme, so the grenade is practically unremovable. Now add Armor Lock to the formula. An over-shield (a shield over your normal shields) which the grenade successfully penetrated before, leaving a "hole" in them. This hole is not filled by the overshield Armor Lock provides. Instead, the overshield covers your whole body, including the grenade already stuck to you (which is now part of you), and thus should explode inside your armor ability. It makes (would make) sense to me, and happens in 3.5 seconds.[/quote] Here's a tip Angello: You never base gameplay element design decisions on "realism" when discussing things that are overpowered, underpowered, or whatever else. Your argument is invalid.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] imnotjakeybot I'll admit it Hylebos, I didn't read it--I skimmed it--but I've battled you on this before. I disagree and this is why: The point of Armor Lock is to be invincible and nothing can change your status while it is active. But nothing. From the Carnage Carnivale trailer--for my money it's the most definitive, explicit, and comprehensive statement the company has ever made about the game they created--Tung and Carney state some beautiful things concerning Halo: Reach: (1:05) Tung: "We made a bunch of changes in Reach that are pretty significant." (2:20) Tung: "I'm super excited to see what people do with armor abilities, it totally changes the game." (2:30) Carney: "What do you want to be? You want to be invisible? You want to fly? You want to turn to stone?" Armor Abilities were always meant to become fully integrated into the core of Reach's gameplay. That is why they are available off spawn and multi-use. Part of the perks of choosing Armor Lock is that it empowers you to become invincible--to turn to stone--and not even a Scorpion shell can change that. Yes this changes the game that you fell in love with in the 7th grade. But that is what Reach is--a different kind of Halo game with significant changes. If you want to put a big backpack on the dude, whatever. That's your prerogative to argue, but Armor Lock makes the user [i]invincible[/i] while it is active. That is what it does, that is what it was designed to do, that is what it is supposed to do, that it what it should do, and that is what it should always do. [/quote] Carnage Carnivale. If memory serves me correctly, that would be the Vidoc where Luke Smith said "[i]Two men enter. The better man leaves. The lesser man is respawning. And that's Halo.[/i]" am I right? Yeah... That's not happening with Plasma Grenade Shedding. I always laugh a bit whenever someone goes off and treats the "core definition" of Armor Lock like some absolute law that cannot be changed and cannot be challenged. It's slightly hypocritical I think, because those people choose to ignore the core definition of Plasma Grenades which has existed for the past ten years of Halo. You yourself said earlier in the thread: [quote]The point of Armor Lock is to be invincible and nothing can change your status while it is active. But nothing.[/quote]Well, the point of Plasma Grenades is to stick to their targets and never let go until detonation and nothing could save you from their deadly grip. But nothing. If the core definition of Plasma Grenades was so easily and thoughtlessly changed for the sake of progress, then what makes you think that Armor Lock is exempt from the exact same treatment? I understand that Bungie was trying something new with Reach, and I understand that they had the best intentions for this game, but that doesn't change the fact that they've made a mistake. Plasma Grenade Shedding is an overpowered counter against Plasma Grenades, and it isn't neccessary to balance out either the Plasma Grenade or Armor Lock, as I outlined extensively in my original post. I don't care how exactly you choose to define Armor Lock. I don't care that Reach is a different game than the previous Halos. I don't care that Plasma Grenade Shedding was an intentional feature. Plasma Grenade Shedding is still a terrible mechanic! Mistakes like Plasma Grenade Shedding should be corrected and should be learned from, they shouldn't be ignored and defended! There is no reason why Plasma Grenades shouldn't be the exception to the definition of Armor Lock. It doesn't mean that the entire abillity's identity is compromised, it just means that you actually have to react before the Plasma Grenade hits you if you want to live. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] WyvernRider I honestly agree that sticky shedding is ridiculous at times. What I think would be nice is that if you armor lock within half of a second of being stuck only then can it be shed. Heck maybe even take it to a shorter time than that. I would like to still deflect stickies but being able to use armor lock just as you would explode because you reacted fast enough for the long timer is not balanced. If this was about rewarding quick reflexes then you should only be able to shed less then a second after you get stuck. Anything after is unfair in my opinion.[/quote] Or we could kill Plasma Grenade Shedding entirely. You'd still be able to deflect stickies, you'd just need to Armor Lock before they hit you, which rewards quick reflexes. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] AgingWhite Fire [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Ryus Shoryuken [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] ArtooFeva Sir, while I like you as a member that is simply too long a read. I'm just going to go with saying that I personally do not see shedding as a big problem because without it armor lock would do nothing at all except prevent you from moving at all.[/quote] It would still protect you from all other forms of damage.[/quote] I think what he is getting at is that if a sticky kills you in AL, how does it make sense for a tank shell or a frag grenade not kill you so that would end up changed and AL would be a let the enemy kill me because AL does nothing button[/quote] Except that Armor Lock would still protect from external attacks. All the removal of Plasma Grenade Shedding would do is make it so that if you are stuck and Armor Lock you die because the Armor Lock would form around the Grenade, encapsulating the explosion. As the Artoo said though, he didn't read my post, so it's no suprise that he would think that it's what I meant. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Shadowthehh2 well for your point blank sticks i have a solution the 2 grenade method:throw one grenade,let the shed it and use up all there armor lock,stick him again,this isnt gunna be any shedding if theres no armor lock the melee method:melee them and repeat the above method of sticking when al is used up[/quote] Or I could just stick an Armor Locker and he dies because he failed to Armor Lock before I stuck him. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Dragon v 20 perhaps there should be a risk involved in Aling when you get stuck, you WILL die but perhaps due to the ALing and how it contains the explosion perhaps it might increase the size of the explosion, or just completely vaporize the ALer :D[/quote] I'd be more than happy to allow them to contain the explosion with Armor Lock, the explosion itself doesn't need to be bigger however. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Mifkin BTW OP nice thesis, no point going into it but not shedding a grenade will still have the same effect. A rejection medal. [/quote] Unless they make it so that a stuck Plasma Grenade is the only think that can kill an Armor Locker. You know, as I outlined in my Original Post... [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] MURDUR 587 This thread made me realise something. You're right.[/quote] I'm so glad that you see it my wa- [quote]Why should armour lock be the only option to escape the overpowered plasma nades? I say make it so simply hitting b would take the plasma nade off and give you the ability to throw it some other direction, similar to how you throw uncooked grenades away from you in CoD. It would stop armour lockers having a unfair advantage seeing as everyone can shed grenades, it would stop point blank sticks and it would add a whole new level of skill/complexity to plasma nade sticking. Of course you wouldn't be able to armour lock while stuck and you'd have to instantly shed the grenade to not take any damage since the fuse is already lit to make it fair for all parties and you know you can't shed two grenades at once so that wouldn't implicate the plasma launcher too much, just gotta get the damage/time since stick ratio right.[/quote] ... -_- How would it add a whole new level of skill or complexity to Plasma Grenade Sticking? As outlined in the original post, there's nothing I can do to ensure that my Plasma Grenade kills my target so long as Plasma Grenade Shedding is around, making it so that everyone can shed Plasma Grenades only makes the problem worse for Plasma Grenade fans. Why can't Plasma Grenades be nerfed directly if they are overpowered, as I suggested in the original post? [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] tha1truestoner While I actually like there finally being a counter to stickies(and all instant kill/unstoppable weapons), you make one extremely good point: there is no longer any way to tell if your intended target has AL. I think visibility is a huge part of this game. If you see someone with a shotgun/sword, you don't rush him head on. If you see someone with a jetpack you are prepared to aim upward when he tries to fly away. This should also apply to AL and stickies. My solution: bring back the giant back pack and leave plasma shedding in. [/quote] Hold up there. You said that Armor Lock is an acceptable counter to instant kill / unstoppable weapons right? And the Rocket Launcher is one of those instant kill / unstoppable weapons right? So why is it Armor Lock is an acceptable counter to the Rocket Launcher but Armor Lock without Plasma Grenade Shedding is not an acceptable counter for Plasma Grenades? Both projectiles need to be blocked with Armor Lock before they hit you if you want to live, and it's not like Plasma Grenades are particularly faster or more deadly than Rockets. Heck, Plasma Grenades even give the victim an extra second to fight back before he dies! Why exactly does Armor Lock need to have Plasma Grenade Shedding to be balanced? ...I am happy though that you agree about the visibillity. [quote][/quote] 242 characters left! That's all for now folks.

What if plasma grenades instant-exploded when they stick to something? No chance to AL.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] SiCkSniPer117 How did you play 8 People on one console? I didnt know CE had LIVE...[/quote] *FACEPALM* Really??? A good rule of thumb is to k ow what your actually talking about before criticizing someone else.

This is how AL is viewed by lots and lots and lots of people. [url]http://www.bungie.net/Stats/Reach/FileDetails.aspx?fid=14835851&player=kingofsmash1[/url] Now if sticky shedding were to be disabled, well, just picture the scale kind of balancing out.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Drowsy Demon [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] angello22 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Drowsy Demon[/quote] Like Hylebos said, localized solutions for localized problems. Getting rid of Armor Lock doesn't fix the Plasma Shedding attribute it has in-game.[/quote] No, it just doesn't make sense that you suggest Plasma Shedding as a nerf when Armor Lock was designed to be a counter to grenades/dying/anything that kills you. So now Armor Lock users can't survive plasma grenades but they can survive...frag grenades? What sort of logic is this? You might as well remove the invulnerability completely from Armor Lock. [/quote] It does have it's logic. It does make sense, since plasma grenades BURN into your armor, they literally STICK to you. Now pay attention right here. That 3000° blazing blue ball melts with your armor, it adheres to you, through your shields. This difference between temperatures is extreme, so the grenade is practically unremovable. Now add Armor Lock to the formula. An over-shield (a shield over your normal shields) which the grenade successfully penetrated before, leaving a "hole" in them. This hole is not filled by the overshield Armor Lock provides. Instead, the overshield covers your whole body, including the grenade already stuck to you (which is now part of you), and thus should explode inside your armor ability. It makes (would make) sense to me, and happens in 3.5 seconds.

Clearly stated argument with an abundance of evidence

In short: AL SUCKS What were you thinking Bungie? WTF were you thinking?

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] SD2522 How is it fair to make Plasma Grenades the exception to the rule of Armor Lock? I could go into why Armor Lock is unbalanced and abused by users but with this situation Armor Lock is behaving as intended. The Sticky is neutralized and sent off a distance to (ideally) cause as little damage as possible.[/quote] it is not the exception by far it's all about timing. A player can still die despite activating AL if they activate it too late. Rockets, grenades, head shots, swords etc can all hurt and kill a player who has activated AL even a fraction of a second too late. It only makes sense that since a sticky sticks, it should stay stuck. Activating AL late doesn't negate a rockets splash damage, it shouldn't negate adhesives.

[quote][quote]Posted by: SD2522 I know a lot of people hate armor lock and I do have some issues with it as well, but if we break it down to its core mechanic even if it didn't send the sticky flying it would still negate the damage from the explosion. That's what Armor Lock is intended for at its core to give a brief moment of protection.[/quote] At it's core Plasma Grenades are supposed to latch onto your opponent and kill them without fail. Or at least this is what I've understood from the past ten years of Halo. Ignoring the fact that the Plasma Grenade has seniority rights so it's core definition should be honored first, it really comes down to this. Should Armor Lock be the exception to the definition of the Plasma Grenade or should Plasma Grenades be the exception to the definition of Armor Lock? With the former, we have an overpowered counter which kinda takes a lot of fun out of sticking people. With the latter, Armor Lock still has the advantage, but Plasma Grenade users at least have a chance, it's a much more fair alternative. Seems clear to me which one we should go with. It's not too hard to imagine the shield forming over the Plasma Grenade anyways.[/quote] How is it fair to make Plasma Grenades the exception to the rule of Armor Lock? I could go into why Armor Lock is unbalanced and abused by users but with this situation Armor Lock is behaving as intended. The Sticky is neutralized and sent off a distance to (ideally) cause as little damage as possible.

I'm with him [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] quickdog93 da f?[/quote]

I give a +1 to this thread! I read through what you had to say and I have to admit that what was written was well thought out and captured my attention. I agree that there should definitely be change to armor lock but I think that the way [i][b]you[/b][/i] want it to be done would be kind of hard to do. See if Bungie were to change armor lock so that grenades that are already stuck to someone will kill them, but grenades that you throw at them while they are in armor lock bounce off, that leaves a few variables unanswered. I think that the reason why Bungie made plasma grenades shed in the first place is because of the fact that you are literally [i]invincible[/i] while in armor lock. Thus even if your idea was implemented then they still would not be hurt by the grenade, and you would still not get the satisfaction of a plasma 'nade well placed. My idea is that instead of being invulnerable to all types of damage, why not have it so that your weapons still DO damage but just not as much! How about actually "nerfing" armor lock; instead of being invulnerable, you still take damage but at a largely reduced rate; like having damage resistance 1000% or higher. In this way you can still do damage and armor lockers can still armor lock! :D

Ok, I can get behind this argument. But I still want to point out that the AL guy will be invincible when the grenade goes off usually. This would help kill the bastards who toggle AL though, and everyone hates those kids.

It took you 6 minutes to read that? And you counted? What a fail. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] MrFortunato [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFZrzg62Zj0 ]who the hell cares?[/url] So plasma 'nades don't win you a fight anymore... live with it, use your gun, jump, strafe from side to side etc. - there is more than one way to win a 1v1 firefight... wasted 6 minutes of my life reading part of that, and you wasted several minutes more typing it all out...[/quote]

You get grenade spammed if you camp. LOLOLOLOL. More people would PLAY if they removed armor lock. A grenade can bounce about 3-4 times, and a plasma only once. Might i recommend sprint?

wow thats quite a book you wrote there. I just hate AL in general as well. just make the drop shield like the h3 bubble shield. death to AL

Very true, good post.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] angello22 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Drowsy Demon[/quote] Like Hylebos said, localized solutions for localized problems. Getting rid of Armor Lock doesn't fix the Plasma Shedding attribute it has in-game.[/quote] No, it just doesn't make sense that you suggest Plasma Shedding as a nerf when Armor Lock was designed to be a counter to grenades/dying/anything that kills you. So now Armor Lock users can't survive plasma grenades but they can survive...frag grenades? What sort of logic is this? You might as well remove the invulnerability completely from Armor Lock.

While I understand the frustration of getting jewed out of a kill with a sticky nade, it is even more frustrating when a sticky nade comes out of a dead body and sticks you after you kill the guy, so while I feel there should be some type of counter for that, yeah AL sucks.

Arguing for sticky shedding is like saying you should be able to dodge a rocket after it blows up.