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4/9/2011 1:52:46 AM
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"Think Twice" Map feedback thread (now available)
[quote][b]Updated [url=http://www.bungie.net/Forums/posts.aspx?postID=58880594&postRepeater1-p=1#58880616]Thread Disclaimer[/url] below[/b][/quote]
Download[url=http://www.bungie.net/Stats/Reach/FileDetails.aspx?fid=16952073&player=A%203%20Legged%20Goat][b] "Think Twice"[/b][/url]
[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRuXUdYk6TA]Think Twice gameplay montage[/url] by riftegifle
-[url=http://carnage.bungie.org/haloforum/halo.forum.pl?read=1067705]Halo.Bungie.Org post[/url]
-[url=http://www.reachingperfection.com/2011/04/think-twice.html]ReachingPerfection Post[/url]
-[url=http://www.forgehub.com/forum/reach-competitive-maps/124573-think-twice.html]Forgehub Thread[/url]
-[url=http://halocharts.com/grouppages.php?group_id=4984&page=Think%20Twice]HaloCharts Satryros thread[/url] (public page)
[quote][b]Screenshots[/b]
[url=http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5228/5653850654_8dfd427242_b.jpg]Red Base[/url]
[url=http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5304/5653850826_91fb64ae16_b.jpg]Blue Base[/url]
[url=http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5150/5653279813_62b8a4d060_b.jpg]Green Room[/url]
[url=http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5222/5653279655_cb9996118a_b.jpg]Gold Room[/url]
[url=http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5146/5653279717_50d3b6f206_b.jpg]Top Center[/url]
[url=http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5230/5653279511_0852e4fb92_b.jpg]Bottom Center[/url]
[url=http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5063/5653427773_6054e6fdc8_b.jpg]Top and Bottom Levels[/url]
[/quote]
The Think Twice Public Beta has concluded. On behalf of the four of us, we thank all of you who participated in testing and posted feedback in this thread. Your comments helped the map nearly reach perfection. Our refined and polished design is now available for all to download and share. However, a map is never finished, so this thread will continue to serve as the feedback thread for Think Twice. Thanks again for all of your support.
To view the list of changes from Beta to now, as well as new videos, please see [url=http://www.bungie.net/Forums/posts.aspx?postID=58880594&postRepeater1-p=28#59369861]this post[/url].
[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CL-S3S2aXW8]Final Version Youtube Walkthrough[/url]
>[url=http://www.bungie.net/News/content.aspx?type=news&cid=31214]Public Beta on Comm Chatter[/url] (thanks for your support Urk!)
>[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJvNTnWPvlc]Beta Gameplay[/url] on youtube
[i]Think Twice[/i] is a simple, yet innovative competitive multiplayer map created by Sven Nietzsche, GodlyPerfection, Jonzorz 124, and myself. The public beta ran from April 11th 2011 to April 23rd 2011. We received constructive and profound feedback from many of the testers, which was invaluable in fine-tuning the map. We humbly thank all of the participants. Your comments have refined the map and made it much better.
[b]Beta Action-Shots[/b]
[url=http://www.bungie.net/Stats/Reach/FileDetails.aspx?fid=16392256&player=Sven Nietzsche]Battle for the Green Room[/url]
[url=http://www.bungie.net/Stats/Reach/FileDetails.aspx?fid=16392252&player=Sven Nietzsche]Whoever wins gets the Healthpack![/url]
[url=http://www.bungie.net/Stats/Reach/FileDetails.aspx?fid=16392287&player=Sven Nietzsche] I guess I lose...[/url]
[url=http://www.bungie.net/Stats/Reach/FileDetails.aspx?fid=16392312&player=Sven Nietzsche] Obi! I told you not to feed the Dinos!![/url]
[url=http://www.bungie.net/Stats/Reach/FileDetails.aspx?fid=16392311&player=Sven Nietzsche]Soo Much Awsome![/url]
[quote][/quote]
[Edited on 04.27.2011 8:04 AM PDT]
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] A 3 Legged Goat To be quite honest though, I don't understand how players have a hard time orienting themselves.[/quote] Haha. You know thats a bad sign right? [quote]Not only that, but the callout system also changes with the room you are in,[/quote] The callouts you lose in split-screen and people won't really expect them to be different on a FW map anyway. I can tell you that I for one still couldn't tell you what that open area on countdown with the concussion rifle is named on the callout system.
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Downloaded the map, can't wait to try it! :D
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] MilesDude32 [url=http://www.bungie.net/Stats/Reach/FileDetails.aspx?fid=16986858&player=Miles3298]Are you sure?[/url] Then again that area is pretty open to fire but you never know what situations will arise. I guess it doesn't matter that much either way - just saying, it's there. [/quote] Those are there by design. They used to be part of a tactical jump to the nook where the platform meets the coliseum wall. I wasn't there when the other decided to killzone that nook though. That small ledge you're standing didn't have any adverse effects on gameplay. They're like the ledges on Rat's Nest's doors. [Edited on 04.25.2011 9:17 PM PDT]
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Godly_Perfection [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] MilesDude32 (explanation)[/quote] Well Miles you obviously haven't downloaded the final version. That area is kill zoned as of yesterday. ;)[/quote] [url=http://www.bungie.net/Stats/Reach/FileDetails.aspx?fid=16986858&player=Miles3298]Are you sure?[/url] Then again that area is pretty open to fire but you never know what situations will arise. I guess it doesn't matter that much either way - just saying, it's there. I hope I'm not being a pest here. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] A 3 Legged Goat To be quite honest though, I don't understand how players have a hard time orienting themselves. The two side rooms are very different, and there's [u]color cues[/u] on every inch of the map. Not only that, but the callout system also changes with the room you are in, an so does the [u]cardinal directions[/u]. I think once players notice these things, they shouldn't have much trouble. [/quote] Trust me when I say that some (possibly many, maybe just a few) players are not going to notice details like these. Some players you can ask them if they're on the red or blue side of a smaller map and they won't know, despite every possible color cue being right in their sights - you have to point these things out. [Edited on 04.25.2011 9:12 PM PDT]
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[i]"This thread has gone Super Nova! And then some..."[/i]
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Weeping Walrus I don't like it. There's not enough emphasis on map control, and there isn't an area that you can stay alive in for a long time without getting naded or flanked. It seems like it's going to end up like Zealot where players run around in circles or congest the middle and spam nades. I don't think it's matchmaking material gameplay wise. But it looks beautiful. [/quote] I agree with this completely. It's a great-looking map, for sure. But the actual gameplay, based on the videos, seems far too similar to Zealot's "hamster-wheel" style of gameplay. I know that Godly said that the map strives for the flow style, but personally, if I had to choose between something like Tempest's traditional gameplay with bases or Zealot's hamster-wheel gameplay, I would choose the former.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Trolling Spree Would a FRG work? [/quote] We tested it and it was an absolute disaster both as a neutral weapon and a base weapon. The map has too many corners which it absolutely dominates. Plus, placing it in the center would cause too many people to rush and nade spam to get it first. The map control thing is something that was kept conscious all the time. Each room has a unique incentive and its pros and cons. In essence, any and all 5 rooms can be controlled if the team is good enough to lock down the 3 entry ways. However, the design was focused less on stationary tactics and more on mobile tactics. The way you duck, dodge, bob, and weave around the map are what will put you on top. The maps name quite literally refers to "thinking twice" about your normal tactics. It has a bit of a learning curve, though it's not high enough to where you can't find your way around on your first play through. To be quite honest though, I don't understand how players have a hard time orienting themselves. The two side rooms are very different, and there's color cues on every inch of the map. Not only that, but the callout system also changes with the room you are in, an so does the cardinal directions. I think once players notice these things, they shouldn't have much trouble.
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I don't think there's enough emphasis on map control. There is definitely flow though, but not really any map control. Without map control, I think the truly better team might have a harder time coming out on top. Just a thought. Also, I've only spent about 10 mins exploring, but I don't think it would kill to have more than 1 med pack under the X corridors. Unless there is? I dunno. And about those 2 PGL's...they kinda suck. Would a FRG work? Good map.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] TuefulHunden87 D-riding and high horsing is not being civil. Thats called being a douche.[/quote]And what, your unprovoked flaming [i]is[/i] civil? [Edited on 04.25.2011 8:22 PM PDT]
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Method Man NYC Gondola (lol) Goat.[/quote] God that map was terrible. That was before I even knew what coordinate editing was. Though I hope to go back to that map sometime.
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I'd like to add onto what Jon was saying with a very simple, very clear maxim about testing: Play first, criticise after. Anyhow, I'm so glad to see the final release and hope that everyone else enjoys it as much as I have been.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] FabFubar You put a lot of effort in to all of this, I can tell. But reviewing the videos of the map still makes me think of it more as a 'fun map to play with your friends' rather than a competitive map fit for matchmaking. Too much of the attention goes to the central corridors. Yes, navigating them is cool. But you basically built your map around them, and there isn't much on the map besides those corridors. Also, I'm not a big fan of spikers for competitive play. The only gametype I see working perfectly on this is rumble pit slayer or headhunter. It looks awesome for those gametypes. Just not for team-based gametypes. The map is much too symmetrical for that. (4 pretty much identical sides) Instantly knowing where you are on the map when you spawn seems difficult too. It's a good map, but only for rumble pit slayer/headhunter in my opinion. I can see the concept of the middle structure working for other maps though. It's what got your map this much attention (along with your reputation on these forums)[/quote] While your opinion is not wholly unique on the matter, I can't help but notice that your account hasn't played Reach since March 11. If this is true and you haven't actually played the map yet, then the only "experience" you have is with the videos we have rendered. This lack of play experience leads me to believe your conclusion on the map is premature. Though on the other hand, if you have played the map and continue to reach that conclusion I would like to see the videos of those games if that is possible. =) Thank you for feedback.
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I gave the map a quick fly-through and I must say I'm impressed. Your forging has certainly improved compared to the Gondola (lol) Goat. Great job guys, I'd love to see this in Arena / TS.
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But there's more coloring on the map than a McDonald's playhouse...
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You put a lot of effort in to all of this, I can tell. But reviewing the videos of the map still makes me think of it more as a 'fun map to play with your friends' rather than a competitive map fit for matchmaking. Too much of the attention goes to the central corridors. Yes, navigating them is cool. But you basically built your map around them, and there isn't much on the map besides those corridors. Also, I'm not a big fan of spikers for competitive play. The only gametype I see working perfectly on this is rumble pit slayer or headhunter. It looks awesome for those gametypes. Just not for team-based gametypes. The map is much too symmetrical for that. (4 pretty much identical sides) Instantly knowing where you are on the map when you spawn seems difficult too. It's a good map, but only for rumble pit slayer/headhunter in my opinion. I can see the concept of the middle structure working for other maps though. It's what got your map this much attention (along with your reputation on these forums)
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] A 3 Legged Goat Ah...the "[i]F[/i]" word of Forgeworld... MLG's guide is solid, but I think it's about time to release more studies. Forgers as a whole have discovered more since that guide went live. If not now, then hopefully if a new Forge World is released. [/quote] Dawkins guide is a pretty solid resource non the less... Although a bit verbose and lengthy IMO. Most of the points he hits on could be explained a lot easier. I wasn't actually meaning an article on how to avoid frame rate, but how to litteral detect it. Myself and Bleuprint tried to explain it to JPel, but he just wasn't catching any at all. Things that could be covered is how different xboxes affect FPS, different TVs, having the game installed vs playing off disk, and just what frame drops look or feel like. Does the map have a "sticky" feel on your reticule, or do you notice visual choppage. Too many forgers simply don't understand what frame drops even look or feel like. :/
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Weeping Walrus I don't like it. There's not enough emphasis on map control, and there isn't an area that you can stay alive in for a long time without getting naded or flanked. It seems like it's going to end up like Zealot where players run around in circles or congest the middle and spam nades. I don't think it's matchmaking material gameplay wise. But it looks beautiful. [/quote] That my friend is what we call flow. Most maps typically move towards two particular styles. One where map control plays a huge role and the other where flowing as a team works better. The more flow, the less map control and vice versa. This one is focused on the flow side of things, creating combat in all parts of the map keeping combat both interesting and constant because confrontations can happen anywhere on the map rather than in a single area. There is a minor touch of map control for the center, but only those who know how to dance and flow between each of the center's levels can hold the center well. The map has a bit of a learning curve, but as a result it has much better replay value because you can always get better at the map. [Edited on 04.25.2011 11:24 AM PDT]
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I don't like it. There's not enough emphasis on map control, and there isn't an area that you can stay alive in for a long time without getting naded or flanked. It seems like it's going to end up like Zealot where players run around in circles or congest the middle and spam nades. I don't think it's matchmaking material gameplay wise. But it looks beautiful.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Mr Shock Trooper Why do you need feedback can't you tell the map sucks. [/quote] If Bungie didn't have feedback threads for their maps, they probably wouldn't know why people didn't like them (like Pinnacle). Designers need external feedback because we can never be completely objective to all aspects of design and gameplay. We're not building it solely for us, so it requires additional input. But it's fine if you don't like it. You can continue to play on Pinnacle :) [Edited on 04.25.2011 10:19 AM PDT]
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Why do you need feedback can't you tell the map sucks.
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Downloaded. :)
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Ah...the "[i]F[/i]" word of Forgeworld... MLG's guide is solid, but I think it's about time to release more studies. Forgers as a whole have discovered more since that guide went live. If not now, then hopefully if a new Forge World is released.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] TuefulHunden87 Thing with flaming feet though is that simply looking down at your feet and walking backwards can trigger frame drops. The bottomless fuel rods I can see working well though as explosions have a tendency to bring performance issues out easily. As you guys actually understand and can detect frame drops (although arguably not as well as we MLG guys :P ), have you thought about writing something up for other forgers on how to detect frame drops? I spent a solid hour with JPel the other day going over frame rate on various maps, including one of my own (the shame!), and he couldn't pick up anything. :O[/quote] I've been thinking about writing it. Typically right now I just direct people towards the guide that has been written up on MLG already. It would be a nice thing to have though since there can be several different ways in which you can lose framerate, from discoing, to looking through glass, to lighting reflections, to object density, etc, etc, etc. so many minor details that can contribute to performance. However I don't feel anywhere near proficient enough in the field to write up such a guide.
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Thing with flaming feet though is that simply looking down at your feet and walking backwards can trigger frame drops. The bottomless fuel rods I can see working well though as explosions have a tendency to bring performance issues out easily. As you guys actually understand and can detect frame drops (although arguably not as well as we MLG guys :P ), have you thought about writing something up for other forgers on how to detect frame drops? I spent a solid hour with JPel the other day going over frame rate on various maps, including one of my own (the shame!), and he couldn't pick up anything. :O
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Nihilistic [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Carpetfresh Just like Affinity, it sucks. Bungie has lost all integrity and it's pride ever since Activision bought them....[/quote] You my good sir sound as if you have a large cylindrical object shoved far in something. [/quote] lol I love you nikki. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] TuefulHunden87 The map has excellent performance for 2-player split. Best settings I find for frame rate testings are with players camo'd, bottomless clip, and AR/Focus Rifle load out. A bit extreme for finding frame rate as if you find any on here with those settings its very likely to be extremely situational.[/quote] As goat said using the new overshield effect in matchmaking you can give everyone overshields and have everyone with a flaming trail running around the map. Pair that with bottomless focus rifle and you have a nice recipe for frame rate dropping goodness. And yeah from the beginning we designed for splitscreen, as much as I would like to support 3-4 player splitscreen, sometimes it just isn't possible unless you want your map to be all sorts of bland. lol... thanks for the tip though schnitzel.
