Ive read through this this thread seeing paragraph after paragraph about how Halo:Reach either Ruined Halo FOREVER!!!! or how it somehow fits. At this point i just dont care anymore. as long as the events of both can be put together in a slightly flexible timeline in my opinion the exact dates and time dont matter.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Alf stewert [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] GrnDragn [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Alf stewert [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] haloplayer2kill [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] GrnDragn I don't know why we are debating this. Bungie did screw up the Canon. There are no "buts" about it. You Bungie fanboys will do anything to defend Bungie. This is blind zealotry! And to all the people who debunk "The Fall of Reach" Novel, just be quiet. TFoR came out even before Combat Evolved! It is the first source of Halo Canon. Are there inconsistencies? Yes, but these can be fixed. Halo: Reach... I don't know.[/quote] The Fall of Reach was not released until after Halo: Combat Evolved. What are you talking about?[/quote] Hello there, welcome to the battlefront, my friend, here's a flame retardant suit. To GrnDragn: I would assume that the Halo story was not very well developed when TFoR came out and that Nylund had to take many creative liberties with the duration of events and the dates of events as well as sequence, and that they have since been retconned in Bungie's own sources (aka Halo Story Bible) as they've shaped their universe. And we are now seeing what Bungie says happened, and rather than just "saying to heck with the fanbase let's do whatever the -blam!- we want" they take the already existing story and move events and dates around or extend some to fit [i]their[/i] story. And a lot of TFoR has been rendered inconsistent with other media in the Haloverse. Contrary to what some are claiming TFoR is the [b][i]only[/i][/b] book affected by Reach. First Strike and Ghosts of Onyx are not affected by it in any way that negatively affects their whole story.[/quote] How can you say TFOR was the ONLY book affected? When Master Chief returned to Reach in First Strike, he met the surviving spartan 2's of that battle. The battle was heavily mentioned in that book. The survival of those spartans, and where they were, all happened because of many events in TFOR, that now seem to be non-canon. Some of these spartan 2's also show up in GoO. Its the butterfly effect. It's like bungie went back in time in the haloverse and changed events, you can't just expect those events to change and not anything else. Those changed events will affect a new changed future. In this new future Hasley may never even go to Onyx, for there were many events that built up to that moment, ones built on each other. Certain events she participated in the book TFOR, seem to have become non-canon. Originally those events affect her events in First Strike and GoO (originally Hasley knew nothing about the spartan 3's during the fall of reach). Also in the new timeline a spartan 3 has survived, named jun. So think how this will affect the new future with Hasley's early knowledge of the Spartan 3 project as well as another spartan. By having the battle of reach for more then 1 day is a HUGE problem, including the PoA being on Reach. Think of Halo canon has a building under construction. Level's are built on previous levels, each affecting each other. Bungie has removed some of the original levels to that building. [/quote] bunge only redid repolished and Connected levels to fit it's been said a many times how it all fits and now people are just being to nitpicky[/quote] It still doesn't fit the original Canon! Honestly, are you so blinded by Bungie that you can't see that? In the first 5 minutes of the game, the Canon was bent to all-hell. As the game progressed, it became worse and worse![/quote]It does fit Why? cause it is a DIFFERENT perspective of a Story such as pulp ficiton had different perspective with different view holes, we see a different story a different light on a situation and we go crazy cause we dont think it fits, if you Guys would stop being A holes towards nitpicking everything you would see reach is a side story a behind the scenes of the start of the downfall of reach. again you guys whine and winge about it BUT!! it's been explained you saying it hasnt is wrong the journal clears it up, But "no impossible" *Sign* Ill say it and continue to say it Reach is a side story to the book Oh and saying it needs to clear up when it has is stupid so stop saying it needs to be cleared up IT HAS!![/quote] I can see you're a Fanboy, so this will never end. But will say it doesn't fit. The Covenant Fleet arrived on August 30. There was no advanced scout party that fought them for a month. The Covenant came in, wrecked the UNSC, but they too sustained heavy casualties, and won. All in one day. To be a "side story" to the book, it has to work with the established canon of the book. It doesn't. The book says the Battle of Reach lated for a day, the game says one month. The Game says that the POA landed on Reach, the book says that not only was it not on the ground, it couldn't go in atmosphere! Your "side story" theory has been debunked.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] GrnDragn [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Alf stewert [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Mr Owen L Halo Reach destroyed the canon in the Fall of Reach and First Strike there is no way to argue around it, REach fell in one day by a surprise covenant attack, The POA was in about to enter slipsapce or had just entered and was traveling away from reach after being refitted in an orbital shipyard before it was recalled to action and destroyed a few covenant ships before deploy almost all the spartan II's to defend the SMAC generators and John, Linda and james went to destroy the NAV core of another ship. After John returned to The POA, reach was beging to fall and Keyes initiated the Cole Protocol and cortana set co-ordinates for something that she had discovered from research the signal and rocks found on SO IV, she had no idea what it was at all. Reach fell within a few days and the remainin spartans headed to castle base and met up with halsey.[/quote]many think it's alot better this time round with reach falling in over month it means humanity fought well and contained it onto one continent you think hell well win but all hope is lost when 700 other ships show up, and about cortana well who said the infomation under sword base was the location of Halo? could of been a piece of to something else? it could of been data cortana had locked away untill she understood the forerunners? POA on reach geez there was enough time for the POA to get onto reach(towed) and pick up the fragment. also perhaps we should wait for more canon info such as the comics showing the perspective of teh POA and Covenant?[/quote] Just because Reach fell in a day, doesn't mean Humanity "didn't fight hard". They were outnumbered 3(?) to 1, and they still put up a brilliant fight against the Fleet of Particular Justice. In fact, I think a majority of the Fleet of Particular Justice was lost. Having Reach fall in a day is pretty believable, rather than holding out for a month against a vastly superior force. And I'm sure the towing the POA would have been costly in terms of time. Hell, it might not have even worked. Stop trying to defend Bungie because they are simply Bungie![/quote] I agree with you on the length of the battle. Reach falling in one day makes complete sense with the original covenant fleet (300 or so ships) in TFoR, and with the 750 or so ships in Halo: Reach, it makes it even more certain that Reach SHOULD HAVE fallen in one day. To those arguing that the humans should have lasted longer...think about this. Humanity has almost always required a 3:1 odd when fighting in space against the Covenant. This means that, generally speaking, 1 covenant ship=3 UNSC ships. In the original telling of TFoR, there were 300 Covenant ships attacking the planet, the UNSC only had 100-150. The covenant fleet basically had the equivalent of 900 UNSC ships, because each of the Covenant ships count for 3 UNSC ones. How do you expect that 150 to beat the 900? In the Halo Reach version of TFoR, there were 750 ships by the end, which means they had the equivalent of 2250 UNSC ships at their disposal. How the hell can you convince yourself that the UNSC can last more than a day? Yes, I'm fully aware that there are other variables, but none that would be enough to make things drastically different. I'm also aware that the fulll 750 covenant ships did not arrive until the last day, however, going by those numbers, all the Covenant needed would have been 30-50 ships to MATCH the UNSC's, and they definitely had way more than that in both versions. Once the space battle is over, then Reach would be lost.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] GrnDragn I don't know why we are debating this. Bungie did screw up the Canon. There are no "buts" about it. You Bungie fanboys will do anything to defend Bungie. This is blind zealotry! And to all the people who debunk "The Fall of Reach" Novel, just be quiet. TFoR came out even before Combat Evolved! It is the first source of Halo Canon. Are there inconsistencies? Yes, but these can be fixed. Halo: Reach... I don't know.[/quote] [quote][b]Posted By:[/b] C0mic Relief The Fall of Reach was not released until after Halo: Combat Evolved. What are you talking about?[/quote] [quote][b]Posted By:[/b] OrderedComa Hello there, welcome to the battlefront, my friend, here's a flame retardant suit. To GrnDragn: I would assume that the Halo story was not very well developed when TFoR came out and that Nylund had to take many creative liberties with the duration of events and the dates of events as well as sequence, and that they have since been retconned in Bungie's own sources (aka Halo Story Bible) as they've shaped their universe. And we are now seeing what Bungie says happened, and rather than just "saying to heck with the fanbase let's do whatever the -blam!- we want" they take the already existing story and move events and dates around or extend some to fit [i]their[/i] story. And a lot of TFoR has been rendered inconsistent with other media in the Haloverse. Contrary to what some are claiming TFoR is the [b][i]only[/i][/b] book affected by Reach. First Strike and Ghosts of Onyx are not affected by it in any way that negatively affects their whole story.[/quote] [quote] After all this time, I don't know if that's ignorance or pure stubbornness that makes you say that. As I've said a long time ago and still hold to this day, what's important is the fact that Bungie changed certain facts that would have a domino effect on media written about and surrounding the entire events of the fall of Reach, though I will admit TFoR is the only novel to be heavily impacted. Btw, Nylund HAD the Halo Bible when he was writing it, and supposedly only had to make minor adjustments to fit the story with the game. Sure, Bungie can do whatever they want with "their" story, but it doesn't mean that it will make it better. Nylund was a better writer for the series than they are. And I should make clear; the canon is not shattered, only stretched and bent. The quality of the story, however, went down the drains with Halo Reach. Maybe the upcoming Halo media will revive it, but Reach was just disappointing.[/quote] Well I know I am not ignorant, though you can feel free to think what you want :P So I would have to say I am stubborn, which I actually am, and determined to not just sit around and start finding fault with every single little detail of the game because it changed the timeline around. How would it affect anything other than TFoR? As far as I've found in my readings of the Halo universe TFoR would be the only media affected by the changes in timeline, as everything else happens after the 30th or on that specific day. I would definitely not say he is a better writer of the story than Bungie, especially since I've never read any sort of writing by them. And writing for video games and books are completely different, you can't really compare them. And besides, I would take anything stated by Bungie in any media relating to them over any information stated by an author in one of the books, seeing as Bungie would know their own story better than someone else. I agree, it has been stretched, and hence evolved into something else, whether the new is better or not is a matter of opinion. I personally think the new is much better than what was, and I certainly don't think that Reach has brought the quality of Halo down at all. Maybe it seems a little bit forced and suffers slightly in that regard as Bungie has said they're tired of making only Halo.[/quote] Just because they were tired of Halo, doesn't mean that they had to destroy/bend the Canon to the extreme. And I think you will find that many don't like how Canon was changed, and if Bungie had such great writers, they sure as hell didn't show it. And whether you think it does or it doesn't, it [i]does[/i] send ripple effects to the other books. It's not just Fall of Reach that will be affected. Eric Nylund was hired by Bungie to make the Fall of Reach in the first place. So I think he deserves some credibility. Reach felt like a random, backwater farming colony with a few frigates and a random Spartan III team shoved in there for the hell of it. I think Eric Nylund did a much better job at creating a story than Bungie did with creating Reach.[/quote] I never said anything about them being tired of Halo being the reason they messed with the way events were before. What I said was the only way it suffered in quality was because it was rushed and they weren't putting their heart into like with the last games because they were tired of working on Halo. I just said video games and books are complete different styles, you simply can't compare them in any affective way without sounding dumb. If you are so convinced that the other books, and not just TFoR, are direly affected by Halo: Reach, then please explain your line of reasoning. And Nylund was not explicitly hired by Bungie, what I've seen has indicated that Nylund came to Microsoft asking to write a book for Halo. That's what the book is for, Bungie did not need to show the full extent of Reach's might because of the book. And they clearly stated in interviews before the game even came out that none of the game would be taking place in areas near the settings of the book.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] GrnDragn [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Alf stewert [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] haloplayer2kill [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] GrnDragn I don't know why we are debating this. Bungie did screw up the Canon. There are no "buts" about it. You Bungie fanboys will do anything to defend Bungie. This is blind zealotry! And to all the people who debunk "The Fall of Reach" Novel, just be quiet. TFoR came out even before Combat Evolved! It is the first source of Halo Canon. Are there inconsistencies? Yes, but these can be fixed. Halo: Reach... I don't know.[/quote] The Fall of Reach was not released until after Halo: Combat Evolved. What are you talking about?[/quote] Hello there, welcome to the battlefront, my friend, here's a flame retardant suit. To GrnDragn: I would assume that the Halo story was not very well developed when TFoR came out and that Nylund had to take many creative liberties with the duration of events and the dates of events as well as sequence, and that they have since been retconned in Bungie's own sources (aka Halo Story Bible) as they've shaped their universe. And we are now seeing what Bungie says happened, and rather than just "saying to heck with the fanbase let's do whatever the -blam!- we want" they take the already existing story and move events and dates around or extend some to fit [i]their[/i] story. And a lot of TFoR has been rendered inconsistent with other media in the Haloverse. Contrary to what some are claiming TFoR is the [b][i]only[/i][/b] book affected by Reach. First Strike and Ghosts of Onyx are not affected by it in any way that negatively affects their whole story.[/quote] How can you say TFOR was the ONLY book affected? When Master Chief returned to Reach in First Strike, he met the surviving spartan 2's of that battle. The battle was heavily mentioned in that book. The survival of those spartans, and where they were, all happened because of many events in TFOR, that now seem to be non-canon. Some of these spartan 2's also show up in GoO. Its the butterfly effect. It's like bungie went back in time in the haloverse and changed events, you can't just expect those events to change and not anything else. Those changed events will affect a new changed future. In this new future Hasley may never even go to Onyx, for there were many events that built up to that moment, ones built on each other. Certain events she participated in the book TFOR, seem to have become non-canon. Originally those events affect her events in First Strike and GoO (originally Hasley knew nothing about the spartan 3's during the fall of reach). Also in the new timeline a spartan 3 has survived, named jun. So think how this will affect the new future with Hasley's early knowledge of the Spartan 3 project as well as another spartan. By having the battle of reach for more then 1 day is a HUGE problem, including the PoA being on Reach. Think of Halo canon has a building under construction. Level's are built on previous levels, each affecting each other. Bungie has removed some of the original levels to that building. [/quote] bunge only redid repolished and Connected levels to fit it's been said a many times how it all fits and now people are just being to nitpicky[/quote] It still doesn't fit the original Canon! Honestly, are you so blinded by Bungie that you can't see that? In the first 5 minutes of the game, the Canon was bent to all-hell. As the game progressed, it became worse and worse![/quote]It does fit Why? cause it is a DIFFERENT perspective of a Story such as pulp ficiton had different perspective with different view holes, we see a different story a different light on a situation and we go crazy cause we dont think it fits, if you Guys would stop being A holes towards nitpicking everything you would see reach is a side story a behind the scenes of the start of the downfall of reach. again you guys whine and winge about it BUT!! it's been explained you saying it hasnt is wrong the journal clears it up, But "no impossible" *Sign* Ill say it and continue to say it Reach is a side story to the book Oh and saying it needs to clear up when it has is stupid so stop saying it needs to be cleared up IT HAS!! [Edited on 01.20.2011 5:43 PM PST]

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] manwith [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] GrnDragn [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] manwith All the events from the novels still happened. Nothing was changed, just expanded. It never made sense that the Covenant would blindly run into the SMACs protected by hundreds of ships without some sort of strategy.[/quote] That's a lie. Halo: Reach completely retconned TFoR.[/quote] TFoR is not told from Reach's perspective, so that's irrelevant.[/quote] LOL, wut? You've just lost all credibility, good sir. [Edited on 01.20.2011 5:33 PM PST]

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] GrnDragn [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] manwith All the events from the novels still happened. Nothing was changed, just expanded. It never made sense that the Covenant would blindly run into the SMACs protected by hundreds of ships without some sort of strategy.[/quote] That's a lie. Halo: Reach completely retconned TFoR.[/quote] TFoR is not told from Reach's perspective, so that's irrelevant.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Alf stewert [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Mr Owen L Halo Reach destroyed the canon in the Fall of Reach and First Strike there is no way to argue around it, REach fell in one day by a surprise covenant attack, The POA was in about to enter slipsapce or had just entered and was traveling away from reach after being refitted in an orbital shipyard before it was recalled to action and destroyed a few covenant ships before deploy almost all the spartan II's to defend the SMAC generators and John, Linda and james went to destroy the NAV core of another ship. After John returned to The POA, reach was beging to fall and Keyes initiated the Cole Protocol and cortana set co-ordinates for something that she had discovered from research the signal and rocks found on SO IV, she had no idea what it was at all. Reach fell within a few days and the remainin spartans headed to castle base and met up with halsey.[/quote]many think it's alot better this time round with reach falling in over month it means humanity fought well and contained it onto one continent you think hell well win but all hope is lost when 700 other ships show up, and about cortana well who said the infomation under sword base was the location of Halo? could of been a piece of to something else? it could of been data cortana had locked away untill she understood the forerunners? POA on reach geez there was enough time for the POA to get onto reach(towed) and pick up the fragment. also perhaps we should wait for more canon info such as the comics showing the perspective of teh POA and Covenant?[/quote] Just because Reach fell in a day, doesn't mean Humanity "didn't fight hard". They were outnumbered 3(?) to 1, and they still put up a brilliant fight against the Fleet of Particular Justice. In fact, I think a majority of the Fleet of Particular Justice was lost. Having Reach fall in a day is pretty believable, rather than holding out for a month against a vastly superior force. And I'm sure the towing the POA would have been costly in terms of time. Hell, it might not have even worked. Stop trying to defend Bungie because they are simply Bungie! [Edited on 01.20.2011 5:30 PM PST]

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] manwith All the events from the novels still happened. Nothing was changed, just expanded. It never made sense that the Covenant would blindly run into the SMACs protected by hundreds of ships without some sort of strategy.[/quote] That's a lie. Halo: Reach completely retconned TFoR.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Mr Owen L Halo Reach destroyed the canon in the Fall of Reach and First Strike there is no way to argue around it, REach fell in one day by a surprise covenant attack, The POA was in about to enter slipsapce or had just entered and was traveling away from reach after being refitted in an orbital shipyard before it was recalled to action and destroyed a few covenant ships before deploy almost all the spartan II's to defend the SMAC generators and John, Linda and james went to destroy the NAV core of another ship. After John returned to The POA, reach was beging to fall and Keyes initiated the Cole Protocol and cortana set co-ordinates for something that she had discovered from research the signal and rocks found on SO IV, she had no idea what it was at all. Reach fell within a few days and the remainin spartans headed to castle base and met up with halsey.[/quote]many think it's alot better this time round with reach falling in over month it means humanity fought well and contained it onto one continent you think hell well win but all hope is lost when 700 other ships show up, and about cortana well who said the infomation under sword base was the location of Halo? could of been a piece of to something else? it could of been data cortana had locked away untill she understood the forerunners? POA on reach geez there was enough time for the POA to get onto reach(towed) and pick up the fragment. also perhaps we should wait for more canon info such as the comics showing the perspective of teh POA and Covenant? [Edited on 01.20.2011 5:22 PM PST]

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] privet caboose Reach did break canon. Infact, it breaks canon within the first 5 minutes of the game. Reach fell on August 30th. That's the day the Covenant found Reach, and decimated the UNSC Fleet. All in one day. The game says that the UNSC lost in over a months time. And without the UNSC even putting up a real fight. It was as if Reach was some random farmer colony. [/quote] you've copy/pasted this for a while now, but it's as true as it gets man.

All the events from the novels still happened. Nothing was changed, just expanded. It never made sense that the Covenant would blindly run into the SMACs protected by hundreds of ships without some sort of strategy.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] OrderedComa [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Beowolfe [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] OrderedComa [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] C0MIC RELIEF [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] GrnDragn I don't know why we are debating this. Bungie did screw up the Canon. There are no "buts" about it. You Bungie fanboys will do anything to defend Bungie. This is blind zealotry! And to all the people who debunk "The Fall of Reach" Novel, just be quiet. TFoR came out even before Combat Evolved! It is the first source of Halo Canon. Are there inconsistencies? Yes, but these can be fixed. Halo: Reach... I don't know.[/quote] The Fall of Reach was not released until after Halo: Combat Evolved. What are you talking about?[/quote] Hello there, welcome to the battlefront, my friend, here's a flame retardant suit. To GrnDragn: I would assume that the Halo story was not very well developed when TFoR came out and that Nylund had to take many creative liberties with the duration of events and the dates of events as well as sequence, and that they have since been retconned in Bungie's own sources (aka Halo Story Bible) as they've shaped their universe. And we are now seeing what Bungie says happened, and rather than just "saying to heck with the fanbase let's do whatever the -blam!- we want" they take the already existing story and move events and dates around or extend some to fit [i]their[/i] story. And a lot of TFoR has been rendered inconsistent with other media in the Haloverse. Contrary to what some are claiming TFoR is the [b][i]only[/i][/b] book affected by Reach. First Strike and Ghosts of Onyx are not affected by it in any way that negatively affects their whole story.[/quote] After all this time, I don't know if that's ignorance or pure stubbornness that makes you say that. As I've said a long time ago and still hold to this day, what's important is the fact that Bungie changed certain facts that would have a domino effect on media written about and surrounding the entire events of the fall of Reach, though I will admit TFoR is the only novel to be heavily impacted. Btw, Nylund HAD the Halo Bible when he was writing it, and supposedly only had to make minor adjustments to fit the story with the game. Sure, Bungie can do whatever they want with "their" story, but it doesn't mean that it will make it better. Nylund was a better writer for the series than they are. And I should make clear; the canon is not shattered, only stretched and bent. The quality of the story, however, went down the drains with Halo Reach. Maybe the upcoming Halo media will revive it, but Reach was just disappointing.[/quote] Well I know I am not ignorant, though you can feel free to think what you want :P So I would have to say I am stubborn, which I actually am, and determined to not just sit around and start finding fault with every single little detail of the game because it changed the timeline around. How would it affect anything other than TFoR? As far as I've found in my readings of the Halo universe TFoR would be the only media affected by the changes in timeline, as everything else happens after the 30th or on that specific day. I would definitely not say he is a better writer of the story than Bungie, especially since I've never read any sort of writing by them. And writing for video games and books are completely different, you can't really compare them. And besides, I would take anything stated by Bungie in any media relating to them over any information stated by an author in one of the books, seeing as Bungie would know their own story better than someone else. I agree, it has been stretched, and hence evolved into something else, whether the new is better or not is a matter of opinion. I personally think the new is much better than what was, and I certainly don't think that Reach has brought the quality of Halo down at all. Maybe it seems a little bit forced and suffers slightly in that regard as Bungie has said they're tired of making only Halo.[/quote] Just because they were tired of Halo, doesn't mean that they had to destroy/bend the Canon to the extreme. And I think you will find that many don't like how Canon was changed, and if Bungie had such great writers, they sure as hell didn't show it. And whether you think it does or it doesn't, it [i]does[/i] send ripple effects to the other books. It's not just Fall of Reach that will be affected. Eric Nylund was hired by Bungie to make the Fall of Reach in the first place. So I think he deserves some credibility. Reach felt like a random, backwater farming colony with a few frigates and a random Spartan III team shoved in there for the hell of it. I think Eric Nylund did a much better job at creating a story than Bungie did with creating Reach.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Beowolfe [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] OrderedComa [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] C0MIC RELIEF [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] GrnDragn I don't know why we are debating this. Bungie did screw up the Canon. There are no "buts" about it. You Bungie fanboys will do anything to defend Bungie. This is blind zealotry! And to all the people who debunk "The Fall of Reach" Novel, just be quiet. TFoR came out even before Combat Evolved! It is the first source of Halo Canon. Are there inconsistencies? Yes, but these can be fixed. Halo: Reach... I don't know.[/quote] The Fall of Reach was not released until after Halo: Combat Evolved. What are you talking about?[/quote] Hello there, welcome to the battlefront, my friend, here's a flame retardant suit. To GrnDragn: I would assume that the Halo story was not very well developed when TFoR came out and that Nylund had to take many creative liberties with the duration of events and the dates of events as well as sequence, and that they have since been retconned in Bungie's own sources (aka Halo Story Bible) as they've shaped their universe. And we are now seeing what Bungie says happened, and rather than just "saying to heck with the fanbase let's do whatever the -blam!- we want" they take the already existing story and move events and dates around or extend some to fit [i]their[/i] story. And a lot of TFoR has been rendered inconsistent with other media in the Haloverse. Contrary to what some are claiming TFoR is the [b][i]only[/i][/b] book affected by Reach. First Strike and Ghosts of Onyx are not affected by it in any way that negatively affects their whole story.[/quote] After all this time, I don't know if that's ignorance or pure stubbornness that makes you say that. As I've said a long time ago and still hold to this day, what's important is the fact that Bungie changed certain facts that would have a domino effect on media written about and surrounding the entire events of the fall of Reach, though I will admit TFoR is the only novel to be heavily impacted. Btw, Nylund HAD the Halo Bible when he was writing it, and supposedly only had to make minor adjustments to fit the story with the game. Sure, Bungie can do whatever they want with "their" story, but it doesn't mean that it will make it better. Nylund was a better writer for the series than they are. And I should make clear; the canon is not shattered, only stretched and bent. The quality of the story, however, went down the drains with Halo Reach. Maybe the upcoming Halo media will revive it, but Reach was just disappointing.[/quote] Well I know I am not ignorant, though you can feel free to think what you want :P So I would have to say I am stubborn, which I actually am, and determined to not just sit around and start finding fault with every single little detail of the game because it changed the timeline around. How would it affect anything other than TFoR? As far as I've found in my readings of the Halo universe TFoR would be the only media affected by the changes in timeline, as everything else happens after the 30th or on that specific day. I would definitely not say he is a better writer of the story than Bungie, especially since I've never read any sort of writing by them. And writing for video games and books are completely different, you can't really compare them. And besides, I would take anything stated by Bungie in any media relating to them over any information stated by an author in one of the books, seeing as Bungie would know their own story better than someone else. I agree, it has been stretched, and hence evolved into something else, whether the new is better or not is a matter of opinion. I personally think the new is much better than what was, and I certainly don't think that Reach has brought the quality of Halo down at all. Maybe it seems a little bit forced and suffers slightly in that regard as Bungie has said they're tired of making only Halo.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] haloplayer2kill Bungie lied when they said canon was not changed with halo reach (said somewhere in an interview i think). [/quote] Yeah, I remember that interview. Someone asked how well Halo: Reach's campaign fit in with the Halo Canon, and one of the employees said, "perfectly". Yeah... right.

Bungie lied when they said canon was not changed with halo reach (said somewhere in an interview i think).

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] SEAL Sniper 9 Half of the members from Noble Team (The ones with the letter 'B' before their numbers) were part of Beta Company and shouldn't even be alive because, aside from Tom and Lucy, all of Beta Company died.[/quote] Not everyone participated in Operation: Torpedo.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Alf stewert [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] haloplayer2kill [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] GrnDragn I don't know why we are debating this. Bungie did screw up the Canon. There are no "buts" about it. You Bungie fanboys will do anything to defend Bungie. This is blind zealotry! And to all the people who debunk "The Fall of Reach" Novel, just be quiet. TFoR came out even before Combat Evolved! It is the first source of Halo Canon. Are there inconsistencies? Yes, but these can be fixed. Halo: Reach... I don't know.[/quote] The Fall of Reach was not released until after Halo: Combat Evolved. What are you talking about?[/quote] Hello there, welcome to the battlefront, my friend, here's a flame retardant suit. To GrnDragn: I would assume that the Halo story was not very well developed when TFoR came out and that Nylund had to take many creative liberties with the duration of events and the dates of events as well as sequence, and that they have since been retconned in Bungie's own sources (aka Halo Story Bible) as they've shaped their universe. And we are now seeing what Bungie says happened, and rather than just "saying to heck with the fanbase let's do whatever the -blam!- we want" they take the already existing story and move events and dates around or extend some to fit [i]their[/i] story. And a lot of TFoR has been rendered inconsistent with other media in the Haloverse. Contrary to what some are claiming TFoR is the [b][i]only[/i][/b] book affected by Reach. First Strike and Ghosts of Onyx are not affected by it in any way that negatively affects their whole story.[/quote] How can you say TFOR was the ONLY book affected? When Master Chief returned to Reach in First Strike, he met the surviving spartan 2's of that battle. The battle was heavily mentioned in that book. The survival of those spartans, and where they were, all happened because of many events in TFOR, that now seem to be non-canon. Some of these spartan 2's also show up in GoO. Its the butterfly effect. It's like bungie went back in time in the haloverse and changed events, you can't just expect those events to change and not anything else. Those changed events will affect a new changed future. In this new future Hasley may never even go to Onyx, for there were many events that built up to that moment, ones built on each other. Certain events she participated in the book TFOR, seem to have become non-canon. Originally those events affect her events in First Strike and GoO (originally Hasley knew nothing about the spartan 3's during the fall of reach). Also in the new timeline a spartan 3 has survived, named jun. So think how this will affect the new future with Hasley's early knowledge of the Spartan 3 project as well as another spartan. By having the battle of reach for more then 1 day is a HUGE problem, including the PoA being on Reach. Think of Halo canon has a building under construction. Level's are built on previous levels, each affecting each other. Bungie has removed some of the original levels to that building. [/quote] bunge only redid repolished and Connected levels to fit it's been said a many times how it all fits and now people are just being to nitpicky[/quote] It still doesn't fit the original Canon! Honestly, are you so blinded by Bungie that you can't see that? In the first 5 minutes of the game, the Canon was bent to all-hell. As the game progressed, it became worse and worse!

Dr. Halsey didn't find out about the Spartan III project until during Halo 2 while master chief discovered the Delta Halo. That doesn't mean that the Spartan III's weren't on Reach (unlikely) but she didn't know about them. Also, the Pillar of Autumn was not grounded on Reach during the attack. I think there were some NEEDED twists to make the game. On that note, the game is not 100% cannon

Halo Reach destroyed the canon in the Fall of Reach and First Strike there is no way to argue around it, REach fell in one day by a surprise covenant attack, The POA was in about to enter slipsapce or had just entered and was traveling away from reach after being refitted in an orbital shipyard before it was recalled to action and destroyed a few covenant ships before deploy almost all the spartan II's to defend the SMAC generators and John, Linda and james went to destroy the NAV core of another ship. After John returned to The POA, reach was beging to fall and Keyes initiated the Cole Protocol and cortana set co-ordinates for something that she had discovered from research the signal and rocks found on SO IV, she had no idea what it was at all. Reach fell within a few days and the remainin spartans headed to castle base and met up with halsey.

Half of the members from Noble Team (The ones with the letter 'B' before their numbers) were part of Beta Company and shouldn't even be alive because, aside from Tom and Lucy, all of Beta Company died.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] haloplayer2kill [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] GrnDragn I don't know why we are debating this. Bungie did screw up the Canon. There are no "buts" about it. You Bungie fanboys will do anything to defend Bungie. This is blind zealotry! And to all the people who debunk "The Fall of Reach" Novel, just be quiet. TFoR came out even before Combat Evolved! It is the first source of Halo Canon. Are there inconsistencies? Yes, but these can be fixed. Halo: Reach... I don't know.[/quote] The Fall of Reach was not released until after Halo: Combat Evolved. What are you talking about?[/quote] Hello there, welcome to the battlefront, my friend, here's a flame retardant suit. To GrnDragn: I would assume that the Halo story was not very well developed when TFoR came out and that Nylund had to take many creative liberties with the duration of events and the dates of events as well as sequence, and that they have since been retconned in Bungie's own sources (aka Halo Story Bible) as they've shaped their universe. And we are now seeing what Bungie says happened, and rather than just "saying to heck with the fanbase let's do whatever the -blam!- we want" they take the already existing story and move events and dates around or extend some to fit [i]their[/i] story. And a lot of TFoR has been rendered inconsistent with other media in the Haloverse. Contrary to what some are claiming TFoR is the [b][i]only[/i][/b] book affected by Reach. First Strike and Ghosts of Onyx are not affected by it in any way that negatively affects their whole story.[/quote] How can you say TFOR was the ONLY book affected? When Master Chief returned to Reach in First Strike, he met the surviving spartan 2's of that battle. The battle was heavily mentioned in that book. The survival of those spartans, and where they were, all happened because of many events in TFOR, that now seem to be non-canon. Some of these spartan 2's also show up in GoO. Its the butterfly effect. It's like bungie went back in time in the haloverse and changed events, you can't just expect those events to change and not anything else. Those changed events will affect a new changed future. In this new future Hasley may never even go to Onyx, for there were many events that built up to that moment, ones built on each other. Certain events she participated in the book TFOR, seem to have become non-canon. Originally those events affect her events in First Strike and GoO (originally Hasley knew nothing about the spartan 3's during the fall of reach). Also in the new timeline a spartan 3 has survived, named jun. So think how this will affect the new future with Hasley's early knowledge of the Spartan 3 project as well as another spartan. By having the battle of reach for more then 1 day is a HUGE problem, including the PoA being on Reach. Think of Halo canon has a building under construction. Level's are built on previous levels, each affecting each other. Bungie has removed some of the original levels to that building. [/quote] bunge only redid repolished and Connected levels to fit it's been said a many times how it all fits and now people are just being to nitpicky

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] GrnDragn I don't know why we are debating this. Bungie did screw up the Canon. There are no "buts" about it. You Bungie fanboys will do anything to defend Bungie. This is blind zealotry! And to all the people who debunk "The Fall of Reach" Novel, just be quiet. TFoR came out even before Combat Evolved! It is the first source of Halo Canon. Are there inconsistencies? Yes, but these can be fixed. Halo: Reach... I don't know.[/quote] The Fall of Reach was not released until after Halo: Combat Evolved. What are you talking about?[/quote] Hello there, welcome to the battlefront, my friend, here's a flame retardant suit. To GrnDragn: I would assume that the Halo story was not very well developed when TFoR came out and that Nylund had to take many creative liberties with the duration of events and the dates of events as well as sequence, and that they have since been retconned in Bungie's own sources (aka Halo Story Bible) as they've shaped their universe. And we are now seeing what Bungie says happened, and rather than just "saying to heck with the fanbase let's do whatever the -blam!- we want" they take the already existing story and move events and dates around or extend some to fit [i]their[/i] story. And a lot of TFoR has been rendered inconsistent with other media in the Haloverse. Contrary to what some are claiming TFoR is the [b][i]only[/i][/b] book affected by Reach. First Strike and Ghosts of Onyx are not affected by it in any way that negatively affects their whole story.[/quote] How can you say TFOR was the ONLY book affected? When Master Chief returned to Reach in First Strike, he met the surviving spartan 2's of that battle. The battle was heavily mentioned in that book. The survival of those spartans, and where they were, all happened because of many events in TFOR, that now seem to be non-canon. Some of these spartan 2's also show up in GoO. Its the butterfly effect. It's like bungie went back in time in the haloverse and changed events, you can't just expect those events to change and not anything else. Those changed events will affect a new changed future. In this new future Hasley may never even go to Onyx, for there were many events that built up to that moment, ones built on each other. Certain events she participated in the book TFOR, seem to have become non-canon. Originally those events affect her events in First Strike and GoO (originally Hasley knew nothing about the spartan 3's during the fall of reach). Also in the new timeline a spartan 3 has survived, named jun. So think how this will affect the new future with Hasley's early knowledge of the Spartan 3 project as well as another spartan. By having the battle of reach for more then 1 day is a HUGE problem, including the PoA being on Reach. Think of Halo canon has a building under construction. Level's are built on previous levels, each affecting each other. Bungie has removed some of the original levels to that building.

I keep seeing posts about how the novel [i]The Fall of Reach[/i] is the worst novel, filled with typos and inconsistencies. Pretty sure that's going to be guaranteed if a writer only has a few weeks for it. I remember seeing an interview with Nylund somewhere, and he said he only had 6-10(bit fuzzy here) weeks to write the novel, as it had to be released before CE. As for inconsistencies, that's a given in any novel or game. Same with the Star Wars EU. However, small inconsistencies are no excuse for completely rewriting a section of events in a timeline that are already established. Again, this entire thing brings me back to the whole "Time Travel Theory" debacle before release. People came up with all these wild ideas, entirely ignoring the whole "simplest explanation is usually correct" philosophy. That is what we've been trying to do with the game's problems. We sit back, identify what is wrong, and look for the most likely explanation. This does not have to be bashing the game, nor does it have to be defending it. It is in light of the entire universe, regardless of what the creator wants to retcon.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] I_olanmills_I I think this guy provides a nice succinct accounting of the canon: [url]http://boards.ign.com/halo/b5240/196236159/p1/?14[/url] It's kind of a shame that they had to create Halsey's diary to explain away all of the conflicts, but at least somebody was thinking about it. [/quote] I've actually read that, to be honest, it didn't help that much, since all it did was place the events in order of how it may have happened if we were to change the dates of the events. Didn't really explain the whys and hows, which is the more important part in my opinion. As well, some of the events he put out are kind of stretching it...doesn't make much sense if you think about it. [Edited on 01.19.2011 10:44 PM PST]

All that was missing from it, well... for me, was an Epic Scarab battle. I always loved those in Halo 3 & ODST.