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OrderedComa

OrderedComa

11/12/2010 9:22:49 PM
Anyone else agree? There are quite a few time gaps in TFoR, plenty enough to have everything in Reach (the game happen). And anyone who says that the UNSC should have detected the Covies coming, well since I just finished reading the book I can where you're coming from, but you have to remember that the only two times it was mentioned they detected anything they mistook the Covenant battle group for an asteroid or small planetoid at first, so the Super Carrier and Corvette in Reach could have easily gotten there without having the sensor stations detecting them. Now there's still the problem of the ships slipping past the outer defenses, but that's still doable, and it's entirely possible that they had limited stealth technology. A lot of the "problems" are also fixed in Halsey's Journal, haven't got to read that yet, but I plan to borrow it from my friend who got the Legendary Edition of the game. Anyway, this is a place for intelligent discussion, so feel free to share your ideas about the "inconsistencies" created by Reach, or just discuss the rest of the cannon, that's fine too.

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    OrderedComa

    OrderedComa

    2/12/2011 9:10:08 PM Permalink
    [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Hyliannightmare why is the cheif asleep on the autumn when he is supposed to be in space trying to steal a ship and commanding the other spartan II's?[/quote] Um, Hello, it's an Easter Egg, it has no actual relevance to the plot, unless you think a Brute and a bunch of Grunts actually were dancing in that club on the New Alexandria level. And this would after all the space fighting anyway. The Autumn's role in the space battle occurs in the early morning of the 30th, and the last level of Reach takes place in the late afternoon of the same day. So rather than jumping out of system immediately after picking up Blue Team, Keyes takes it down to the surface of Reach to pick up the Cortana Fragment from Six and Emile.
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    Hyliannightmare

    Hyliannightmare

    2/9/2011 3:25:44 PM Permalink
    why is the cheif asleep on the autumn when he is supposed to be in space trying to steal a ship and commanding the other spartan II's?
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    hotshot revan II

    hotshot revan II

    1/25/2011 4:47:28 PM Permalink
    Oh well i won't search for any Reach canon breaches anymore because it's pointless as it seems that sotry bible has the Reach story in it and not the books. I should just accept this and move on.It better be worth the sacrifisie of old canon because they have lot of nonsense to explain. So i'll stop debateing with orderedcoma and kit,it was fun but i see it's pointless now :)
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    TheRedFlag

    TheRedFlag

    1/24/2011 7:38:44 PM Permalink
    Noble team keeps removing their helmets so the player can tell them apart. That's also why each Spartan in Reach wears brightly colored armor, and has a unique ethnicity or physical size.
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    OrderedComa

    OrderedComa

    1/24/2011 3:40:40 PM Permalink
    [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] DrMod I think they had them remove their helments to try and humanize them more. alternatively they just wanted to show off their fancy new face modeling.[/quote] Yeah, similar to what I was thinking, I don't think it was meant to be canon in anyway, it was just to help us get more aquainted with Noble Team. And most of the time their helmets are off they aren't in combat or near enough to worry about it.
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    Doctor Mod

    Doctor Mod

    1/24/2011 11:15:49 AM Permalink
    I think they had them remove their helments to try and humanize them more. alternatively they just wanted to show off their fancy new face modeling.
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    OrderedComa

    OrderedComa

    1/24/2011 2:09:37 AM Permalink
    [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] ninjakenzen [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] OrderedComa I'm not trying to jump all up in your face or anything, Ninja, but a friend and I were talking earlier, and I thought of some things while talking with him that could somewhat help explain some of Noble Team's personality. I remembered that Jun has a form of PTSD, and his chattiness is somewhat caused by that. And also, the whole training of the SIIIs was much more rushed than the SIIs, the training was focused much more on making them soldiers and able to handle themselves on the battlefield, and they were organized in a team fashion, so their differences were not so much beaten out of them as enhanced and given the right channels of output to make their team excel. Whereas the SIIs were given much more time and a much less rushed training because they weren't made to fight the Covenant, and the need for them on the field was very much less pressing. So they were given a thorough indoctrination course as well as efficient military training. And the end result of the training was that they all became rather similar, I mean they still have differences in personality and such, but they function much more as one mind than the SIIIs do and the little individualness they have is not that pronounced, except to Halsey of course. And Carter strikes me very much like what you say you picture the Spartans as, extremely professional soldiers. He seems very "by the book" to me and he strikes me as most like the "background" Spartans in the books. I'm still not quite sure where you're coming from with your critique of Halsey, so I won't say anything about it other than ask you explain your reasonings. I look forward to more healthy debate here, I shall eagerly await what you have to say :)[/quote] You are canonically correct on this. :) I think for me, personally i expected the Novel's depiction of a SPARTAN regardless of their class. The game just added a new dimension to the characters, i guess. A direction in which i didn't agree with. Especially since (in my opinion) they were so poorly develop during the campaign. It just adds to more disbelief for me which in turn just makes the campaign experiences in terms of storyline, worse. It is debatable on how consistent behaviour is, but from my view it's very clear. The inconsistancy that follow due to their character's does lead to epic face-palm moments for me. For example, Kat. She died because the glassing from orbit emitted an emp to her sheilds. A Zealot comes by on a phantom headshot her and drives away. I mean come on? if that's gonna happen why not just headshot the entire team, the EMP by the glassing would have effected them all. Noble wouldn'nt have enough firepower to take down the phantom. However lets say the glassing from the EMP was not the issue here. Lets say its because her helmet was being put back on so her sheilds took time to realign. In the novels they had always said that SPARTANS would never take off their Helmet's unless they were in a secure facility. Even in the novels when one of the spartans puked they had kept their helmets on. Realistically even, what solider would take off their helmet in a combat zone? More face time for the cameras? You could then argue it wasn't a combat zone. It was (IMO), Hell when the building you're in has been located by the covenant with open windows etc, would you run the risk of taking off your helmet? It makes no sense. I could go on about George, Emiles, and even Carters death. The only one that was justifiable in my eyes was Noble-6 and even then it may have been a stretch... I just went from behaviour to deaths LOL but they do go hand in hand and if they followed the pre-existed canon on these inconsistency i would argue that half the actions would have made sense and made the deaths and actions of noble more inspiring and tragic instead of making it a one trick pony. [/quote] I will completely agree with you on the deaths, some of them were rather...eh... Especially Kat's that one was kinda lame and left me feeling WTF?!?! Especially since they did not show any signs of [i]why[/i] it was a one hit wonder. I didn't really have a problem with Jorge's death, other than how utterly boring and stereotypical it was. But Spartans did that sort of self-sacrifice in the novels, so I guess Bungie felt all right doing it or something :/ I would assume Bungie only had them remove their helmets for gameplay purposes, they were trying to do a more character driven story, and you can't relate as well to someone you can't see the face of, which is weird because I have no problem relating to Chief :P
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    ninjakenzen

    ninjakenzen

    1/23/2011 11:06:04 PM Permalink
    [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] OrderedComa I'm not trying to jump all up in your face or anything, Ninja, but a friend and I were talking earlier, and I thought of some things while talking with him that could somewhat help explain some of Noble Team's personality. I remembered that Jun has a form of PTSD, and his chattiness is somewhat caused by that. And also, the whole training of the SIIIs was much more rushed than the SIIs, the training was focused much more on making them soldiers and able to handle themselves on the battlefield, and they were organized in a team fashion, so their differences were not so much beaten out of them as enhanced and given the right channels of output to make their team excel. Whereas the SIIs were given much more time and a much less rushed training because they weren't made to fight the Covenant, and the need for them on the field was very much less pressing. So they were given a thorough indoctrination course as well as efficient military training. And the end result of the training was that they all became rather similar, I mean they still have differences in personality and such, but they function much more as one mind than the SIIIs do and the little individualness they have is not that pronounced, except to Halsey of course. And Carter strikes me very much like what you say you picture the Spartans as, extremely professional soldiers. He seems very "by the book" to me and he strikes me as most like the "background" Spartans in the books. I'm still not quite sure where you're coming from with your critique of Halsey, so I won't say anything about it other than ask you explain your reasonings. I look forward to more healthy debate here, I shall eagerly await what you have to say :)[/quote] You are canonically correct on this. :) I think for me, personally i expected the Novel's depiction of a SPARTAN regardless of their class. The game just added a new dimension to the characters, i guess. A direction in which i didn't agree with. Especially since (in my opinion) they were so poorly develop during the campaign. It just adds to more disbelief for me which in turn just makes the campaign experiences in terms of storyline, worse. It is debatable on how consistent behaviour is, but from my view it's very clear. The inconsistancy that follow due to their character's does lead to epic face-palm moments for me. For example, Kat. She died because the glassing from orbit emitted an emp to her sheilds. A Zealot comes by on a phantom headshot her and drives away. I mean come on? if that's gonna happen why not just headshot the entire team, the EMP by the glassing would have effected them all. Noble wouldn'nt have enough firepower to take down the phantom. However lets say the glassing from the EMP was not the issue here. Lets say its because her helmet was being put back on so her sheilds took time to realign. In the novels they had always said that SPARTANS would never take off their Helmet's unless they were in a secure facility. Even in the novels when one of the spartans puked they had kept their helmets on. Realistically even, what solider would take off their helmet in a combat zone? More face time for the cameras? You could then argue it wasn't a combat zone. It was (IMO), Hell when the building you're in has been located by the covenant with open windows etc, would you run the risk of taking off your helmet? It makes no sense. I could go on about George, Emiles, and even Carters death. The only one that was justifiable in my eyes was Noble-6 and even then it may have been a stretch... I just went from behaviour to deaths LOL but they do go hand in hand and if they followed the pre-existed canon on these inconsistency i would argue that half the actions would have made sense and made the deaths and actions of noble more inspiring and tragic instead of making it a one trick pony. [Edited on 01.23.2011 3:08 PM PST]
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    OrderedComa

    OrderedComa

    1/23/2011 10:50:13 PM Permalink
    [quote][b]Posted By:[/b]Beowolfe Too bad you don't agree with it, because that's how it is. Humans still won sometimes, but they did so with superior numbers or superior strategies, never through head-to-head space combat. The technological gap between the two is simply far too great. Accept that, because that is how it is. Btw, it doesn't matter if there were 300 or 750 covenant ships at Reach, because either of them would still destroy the humans' defences. Seriously, space combat is nothing like ground engagements, there's no real cover, no hiding, it's just like the naval battles in the 1700s or even the 1800s. The only way to win is to survive the volleys the enemies throw at you until one side or the other is completely wiped out. The SMACs may have been a huge advantage on the humans side, but they were not invincible, and one hit from a plasma bolt will destroy the ODP. As well, most of the ODPs went offline after the generators were overrun, leaving what's left of the Reach defense Fleet to deal with at least 100 covenant ships still there.[/quote] I'm not even going to bother arguing with you over this one because neither of us will change the others mind regarding ship-to-ship combat. Especially on two threads, I'll just keep the ship-to-ship argument to my other thread. [quote]Of course they wouldn't want to cause mass-panic, but they wouldn't take it lightly either, which, from what we saw in the games, was exactly what happened. I'm guessing you believe so strongly in this because you don't think the covenant should be that strong, but the fact is, having ANY covenant presence near a human colony is like discovering a zombie outbreak akin to 28 Days Later or The Crazies. You don't want the world to panic, but you damn well need to do EVERYTHING to destroy this threat ASAP. Maybe the UNSC wouldn't want to publicize the fact, but most of the higher level brass should be informed, as well as any specialized teams that can handle the situations. That means ODSTs, nearby military installments, or Spartans. Instead, the UNSC in the game decided to leave them for more than a week. No Spartan II intervention, no large military operation until Tip of The Spear. What the hell were they thinking? At any point during that period the Covenant ships could have sent for reinforcements, and being that they have near-instantaneous communication, why wouldn't they inform their allies of a human world? BTW, it still doesn't make it any more sensible that the Long Night of Solace got through with its escorts without anyone noticing. Even more retarded is the fact that they were obviously on the planet far earlier than when Noble discovered them, since they were able to set up the spires and start raiding operations, and yet no one noticed anything.[/quote] I don't believe or disbelieve that they were keeping the initial invasion, ie the forces encountered before the 14th, secret, I was merely discussing it from a hypothetical, and countering revan's claims in regards to the issue. I was under the impression that the military was mostly in the know about it, how else would you coordinate a massive assault the likes of Tip of the Spear, if it was secret it would have only been from the civilian population. And I would assume the week long gap would be gathering their forces, which, everyone seems to forget, takes time to organize and gather. And their probably would have been a second recon for more informative purposes such as troop movements, enemy strongholds, and such things as that. I have no plausible answer for that, other than maybe human sensors are not as advanced as the books make them out to be, or Covenant stealth tech that's not feasible on a scale of mass production, or there's always the simple answer "it just happened and we have to wait and see if it will ever be answered by the powers that be". [Edited on 01.23.2011 2:50 PM PST]
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    kit_103

    kit_103

    1/23/2011 10:18:27 PM Permalink
    [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] hotshot revan II -Explained in my previous post[/quote] I saw. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] hotshot revan II 1)The autumn was in the middle of combat in space,if some unarmed vessels arrive to bring the autumn to aszod,you think the covies will just stay and watch?No they would have blasted thos ships out of orbit because the entire UNSC fleet was nearly obliterated when the autumn was about to escape.[/quote] I was waiting for this kind of response! Lol. Get maybe three or four other UNSC vessels to cover the Autumn and her little wings. I'd be worried more about the four ships tearing through my shields then I am a coward who's fleeing to his grave. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] hotshot revan II -Nope according to the fall of reach and even Dr Halsey's journal,Halsey talked to her spartans face to face and not a video conference.The red breifing did happen,but like i said before i guess bungie ingored the journal(typical).[/quote] Touche. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] hotshot revan II -I don't think you read the journal or the books or else you would have known that Halsey talked to the spartans face to face.[/quote] If I hadn't, I wouldn't be taking part in this convo lol. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] hotshot revan II -No vierry was home to the largest citys on Reach around the circular lake[/quote] Big empty wastelands actually, with a refinery here and there. Like Coma pointed out, the image really doesn't prove much except troop deployments and how empty it really is. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] hotshot revan II -They should have noticed that at the beginning of the vierry battle and even sword base attack.[/quote] Sword was pretty much up in the mountains. Any personal still alive and a random civilian or two were probably told to keep their mouths shut about it. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] hotshot revan II -Indeed,except that cortana in Halo ce didn't knew anything about the forerunners till she accesed the contol room,but in Reach she got access to a large forerunner structure with knowledge of their entire civilisation,my ass.[/quote] I think Coma covered this pretty well. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] hotshot revan II They will have to sacrifise alot of things to blend the 2 together. I personally enjoyed the old fall of reach far more then this one.The new one doesn't makes any sense[/quote] Oh they certainly will, that's for sure. And that's cool. I really don't blame you. The book was pretty amazing. I remember not being happy when I heard about the July 24th date. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] hotshot revan II And sorry for my overeacting behavior in this thread guys[/quote] It's cool. It's a rather civil debate and I'm surprised by it. Nice to see honestly.
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    Beowolfe

    Beowolfe

    1/23/2011 10:00:35 PM Permalink
    [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] OrderedComa Hood was speaking hyperbole, and we don't ever actually [i]see[/i] anything to represent the number of ships at Earth in Halo 2. And as I said, the 750 ships in the reprint edition is an error, because other than one instance it goes back to saying 300ish. And remember, the UNSC had SMACs as well, which can smash through a Covie ship in one single hit. And quite frankly I don't quite agree with the 3 human ships to 1 Covie ship ratio. If the Covenant were so powerful the UNSC should not have had any victories in space at all.[/quote] Too bad you don't agree with it, because that's how it is. Humans still won sometimes, but they did so with superior numbers or superior strategies, never through head-to-head space combat. The technological gap between the two is simply far too great. Accept that, because that is how it is. Btw, it doesn't matter if there were 300 or 750 covenant ships at Reach, because either of them would still destroy the humans' defences. Seriously, space combat is nothing like ground engagements, there's no real cover, no hiding, it's just like the naval battles in the 1700s or even the 1800s. The only way to win is to survive the volleys the enemies throw at you until one side or the other is completely wiped out. The SMACs may have been a huge advantage on the humans side, but they were not invincible, and one hit from a plasma bolt will destroy the ODP. As well, most of the ODPs went offline after the generators were overrun, leaving what's left of the Reach defense Fleet to deal with at least 100 covenant ships still there. [quote]And said continent is pretty much the middle of nowhere, your image does not prove your point, it emphasizes how empty the Viery territory is, and the dots by the lakes are not necessarily cities, they could be anything, military outposts, communications arrays, or cities, they could be anything. The game does not explain how the Covenant found Reach, and I don't know if they communicate the location of every human world to their superiors. ANd I highly doubt the UNSC does, it is not entirely impossible for them to think they can whip them and send the Covies packing. As I said, they would not want to create mass-panic over a few Corvettes.[/quote] Of course they wouldn't want to cause mass-panic, but they wouldn't take it lightly either, which, from what we saw in the games, was exactly what happened. I'm guessing you believe so strongly in this because you don't think the covenant should be that strong, but the fact is, having ANY covenant presence near a human colony is like discovering a zombie outbreak akin to 28 Days Later or The Crazies. You don't want the world to panic, but you damn well need to do EVERYTHING to destroy this threat ASAP. Maybe the UNSC wouldn't want to publicize the fact, but most of the higher level brass should be informed, as well as any specialized teams that can handle the situations. That means ODSTs, nearby military installments, or Spartans. Instead, the UNSC in the game decided to leave them for more than a week. No Spartan II intervention, no large military operation until Tip of The Spear. What the hell were they thinking? At any point during that period the Covenant ships could have sent for reinforcements, and being that they have near-instantaneous communication, why wouldn't they inform their allies of a human world? BTW, it still doesn't make it any more sensible that the Long Night of Solace got through with its escorts without anyone noticing. Even more retarded is the fact that they were obviously on the planet far earlier than when Noble discovered them, since they were able to set up the spires and start raiding operations, and yet no one noticed anything. [Edited on 01.23.2011 2:03 PM PST]
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    OrderedComa

    OrderedComa

    1/23/2011 8:34:01 PM Permalink
    [quote][b]Posted By:[/b]hotshot revan II 1)The autumn was in the middle of combat in space,if some unarmed vessels arrive to bring the autumn to aszod,you think the covies will just stay and watch?No they would have blasted thos ships out of orbit because the entire UNSC fleet was nearly obliterated when the autumn was about to escape. And i really think that in that game,the autumn never fought in space but stayed on ground all the time.If this is true then blue team couldn't have fought in space,red team wouldn't have had a disaster crash.[/quote] 1. It can start atmospheric descent itself, and then the rocket tugs meet it in atmosphere, at least that's how I think it would work, or they have rocket tugs on the refit docks in space and it connected there. If it came down from the space battle, then the ending of TFoR would have to be changed anyway, so if that is the case then the Covenant would not necessarily be in the "total win" position yet. [quote] 2)No Halsey:...Perhaps more.You are to take her to the UNSC ship-breaking yards in Aszod.There,you will find a Halycon-class cruiser waiting to get her off planet Seems like the autumn is already there unless Halsey could magically predict the autumn succesfully landing there with no problem Auntie Dot:UNSC cruiser,Pillar of autumn is awaiting your arrival. Looks like tha autumn was already on Reach at ht end of the 29th or the beginning of the 30th.In the books tha autumn was in space preparing to leave the system(prophet hunt) -Nope according to the fall of reach and even Dr Halsey's journal,Halsey talked to her spartans face to face and not a video conference.The red breifing did happen,but like i said before i guess bungie ingored the journal(typical). Remember the cutscene of the sabre docking into the anchor 9?You see plasmabombardement,one of those explosions was near SWORD and auntie dot said this: "There is nothing you can do for Halsey and the others inside SWORD base." Halsey couldn't have escaped sword when the area had been glassed. Jun:SWORD?The covenant own it now." The covenant contolled sword base,Halsey couldn't have escaped it.The game contradicts with the journal and the books.So why putting that journal into the Reach editions if both contradict eachother?[/quote] 2. Yes. People speak that time all the way in fiction, and in real life too sometimes. Just because I say "You'll find X there waiting for you" does not mean X is already there, it means it will arrive before you do. And the part where Dot is speaking to them is at like 8:00+ in the morning of the 30th, which is several hours [i]after[/i] Chief's op in space, so even if it is waiting for them at that point it does not mean it was always there. Do you not understand the meaning of the ":P" emoticon? I was not being serious, it was said in jest. And why couldn't she have gotten in and out again? Being glassed has nothing to do with it, also, that platform they're on had to have been hidden anyway, or some sort of Covenant exploration party or patrol would have found the two Pelicans docked there. [quote]I get the feeling that Bungie ingores the halo canon from other authors and think their own vision is canon.They have no rights to do that.Microsoft and 343 own Halo and not Bungie,so why change canon without asking 343 first? Look what Bungie says: "We did take some liberty," said Lehto. "In the book, I believe the Pillar of Autumn is in orbit at a docking station. We talked to [Eric] Nylund [the author of "The Fall of Reach"] about the whole event structure and we got the chronology of it down to where we felt comfortable with the little bends we were taking to make sure it worked best for the game and best for our game's fiction. We've had discrepancies with Nylund on what we believe is canon and what should be made sacred in the canon. But that's always the case when you have others outside of Bungie building the fiction for the "Halo " universe." hahahaha,sorry for laughing but read this.Bungie say they only talked with Nylund about this and not 343.Last time i checked microsoft and 343 owned Halo and the story bible and not bungie.So why did bungie said "Bungie's canon".This is a huge confirmation that they said -blam!- you to the halo canon(excluding their works),Eric nylund and 343 industries. The story of the book was far far better then the game's.Most of the halo fans will agree on this.[/quote] As I said in another post, Bungie were the final authority on what was and was not canon until after Reach came out, now it is 343. There was no need to discuss anything with 343 as they were the not guardians and gods of Halo lore at that point, Bungie was preparing to hand over the reins to 343 up until right around Reach "went Gold", and besides, the top heads of 343 are former [i]Bungie[/i] employees, just to make sure you got that [i][b]BUNGIE[/b][/i], they would both be in agreement over the canon of Halo. So actually your little quote does not mean anything. I do not think either one is better, both are awesome in their own way, and they both have their weak points, you cannot, and I can't stress this point enough, safely compare video game storytelling to book story telling. They are too vastly different sources that are too different to really compare. [quote]-The 750 ships comes from Lord Hoods quote and the new fall of reach.And as Holland says,the covie fleet arrived at the 14th.Seems like 150 inferior UNSC ships were fighting 300-750 superior ships.Weird how did the UNSC survived that long?Did they had Forerunner ships?*sarcasm* An inferior outnumbered outgunned fleet could not survive the slaughter of a massive covie fleet for weeks.One salvo of that fleet would decimate the UNSC fleet.But again it's bungie people who don't give a -blam!- about the fiction.[/quote] Hood was speaking hyperbole, and we don't ever actually [i]see[/i] anything to represent the number of ships at Earth in Halo 2. And as I said, the 750 ships in the reprint edition is an error, because other than one instance it goes back to saying 300ish. And remember, the UNSC had SMACs as well, which can smash through a Covie ship in one single hit. And quite frankly I don't quite agree with the 3 human ships to 1 Covie ship ratio. If the Covenant were so powerful the UNSC should not have had any victories in space at all. [quote]-They couldn't have kept it a secret till the supercarrier show.An entire massive continent was at war. http://www.halopedian.com/images/b/b5/Viery.jpg The largest citys of Reach are located at those circular lakes and as seen in that picture there was war in the citys as well.Just face it the cvivilians know it.And according to the books the arrival of the covies on the 30th was a surprise. -Massive panic?It's the goddamn Covenant empire with fleets numbering in thousands and with ships that can travel at +900 light years a day.Any covenant fleet could travel in a matter of hours in the UNSC teriroty and can send reinforcements in a matter of hours. Why didn't they avacuated the 700 million civilians?They know that any covenant fleet could arrive in a matter of hours.So they risk the death of all civilians because they stupidly belive that the covies wouldn't send reinforcements soon? (het were lucky that the covies waited to long to send a large fleet,stupid plot shield) Seems the UNSC did the wrong decision as everyone on Reach died except a dozen UNSC warships escaped the onslaught.[/quote] And said continent is pretty much the middle of nowhere, your image does not prove your point, it emphasizes how empty the Viery territory is, and the dots by the lakes are not necessarily cities, they could be anything, military outposts, communications arrays, or cities, they could be anything. The game does not explain how the Covenant found Reach, and I don't know if they communicate the location of every human world to their superiors. ANd I highly doubt the UNSC does, it is not entirely impossible for them to think they can whip them and send the Covies packing. As I said, they would not want to create mass-panic over a few Corvettes. [quote]-It conflicts with CE because cortana didn't knew who the forerunners are in Halo ce but in Reach she absorbes massive amounts of Forerunner knowledge. Just face it Bungie ruined everything and you guys can't admit it.Even marvus letho admitted it in that interview,they even didn't asked 343 industires the owners of the halo canon and think that "their canon" is higher above all of the others. The reason they contradicted the books is because they think they might make the game story far better .To bad they failed as most halo fans will agree that the Reach story isn't better then the previous games.The lack of massive battle scope,poor writing,... And yes i'm overreacting my apoligies for that. [/quote] She doesn't know what the Forerunners are in Reach either, it is never stated what the data she downloaded was, not even Halsey knew that it was Forerunner data, whatever it was, it probably helped her decode the star map on the Rock. You are forgiven, as long as no one gets too out of hand it's all good. We're having a good debate here, and tempers are bound to rise a little bit.
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    OrderedComa

    OrderedComa

    1/23/2011 6:23:52 PM Permalink
    [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] ninjakenzen [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] AlphaZero X [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] ninjakenzen You just don't get it. Have you read the novels? Do you understand the nature of special-force groups? The discipline involved? In Halo, Spartans were as close to perfect soldiers as a human could be. Emile could pass off as an ODST at best, so could Jun. Hell, buck would be more fitting as a Spartan. Not just in combat ability.But in personality and trait. [/quote] Kurt's emphatic qualities to other Spartans and UNSC soldiers could be seen as a detrimental personality trait. He feels compassion, which could drastically affect his reasoning on the battlefield. Yet he stayed in. And wound up leading the SIII's. No way he should be a Spartan. See how easy it is? Spartan IIIs are not the Spartan IIs that were in Halo. The criteria for them was far less stringent than SIIs, so personality traits are less of a concern anyways, since SIII's were built to do one thing. Die on missions and be replaced. Quickly. [/quote] [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] OrderedComa The portrayal of Spartans in the novels and the games have never agreed, the games the Spartans are all much more human, and certainly not emotionless robots. For instance, Master Chief, in the books he is pretty much a blank slate with absolutely no personality saying sir all the time to any superior, whereas in the games he is much more relaxed, respectful, but definitely relaxed around his superiors, like with Lord Hood he almost added "sir" as an after thought. And he spouts off oneliners giving a sense of humor of sorts, something he [i]never[/i] does in the books. You are reading far too much into this, yes, you may not like the game, that's fine, but don't go touting what you believe and hold as an opinion as the absolute fact.[/quote] I guess you guys might have a point, i might have been looking too much into this. However i just can't seem to put myself into believing that a solider with a lifetime of training will behave how noble team behaved. I truly cringe when i see Jorge leaping to protect that civillian with the zealots arrive. How Jun's chattiness annoys me during the nightfall. How Halsey behaves around Noble Team and how Noble Team interact with each other. It's the little things i guess. But yeah, it's just my opinion in the end. But i can't draw a line between a Marine and a Spartan anymore. Beyond the suit and physical characteristics. [/quote] I'm not trying to jump all up in your face or anything, Ninja, but a friend and I were talking earlier, and I thought of some things while talking with him that could somewhat help explain some of Noble Team's personality. I remembered that Jun has a form of PTSD, and his chattiness is somewhat caused by that. And also, the whole training of the SIIIs was much more rushed than the SIIs, the training was focused much more on making them soldiers and able to handle themselves on the battlefield, and they were organized in a team fashion, so their differences were not so much beaten out of them as enhanced and given the right channels of output to make their team excel. Whereas the SIIs were given much more time and a much less rushed training because they weren't made to fight the Covenant, and the need for them on the field was very much less pressing. So they were given a thorough indoctrination course as well as efficient military training. And the end result of the training was that they all became rather similar, I mean they still have differences in personality and such, but they function much more as one mind than the SIIIs do and the little individualness they have is not that pronounced, except to Halsey of course. And Carter strikes me very much like what you say you picture the Spartans as, extremely professional soldiers. He seems very "by the book" to me and he strikes me as most like the "background" Spartans in the books. I'm still not quite sure where you're coming from with your critique of Halsey, so I won't say anything about it other than ask you explain your reasonings. I look forward to more healthy debate here, I shall eagerly await what you have to say :)
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    OrderedComa

    OrderedComa

    1/23/2011 6:07:18 PM Permalink
    [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] hotshot revan II [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Sora Ai I want to weigh in on the conversation. I'll first like to state that I haven't read the books, so please bare with me as what I have to say is simple and I hope can come across as understandable. Retailing of the events on Reach should have been expected to be retconned because rarely does any form of media that retails a story from the original tend to do every thing in the exact same fashion. It's also worth noting that the book, Halo: Fall of Reach, was written by some one who was never part of Bungie or had anything to do with any of the story writing, telling and production in the games (which to me makes the book nothing more than official fanfiction commissioned and authorized by Bungie.) It really doesn't help to make sense of it all or get upset. It's a different way to tell the story, it's something to deal with.[/quote] Eric Nylund got the halo story bible,and he is the one who wrote story of the UNSC,rebels,spartans,...all bungie did is writing the story plot of the halo trilogy. And besides in that logic we can call bungie's work fanficxtion as well because microsoft own Halo and not Bungie. 343 industries has the story bible now,they say what canon is or not and bungie completely ignored them wrote their own stupid story. I think it's bad what bungie did Books are canon,if the books were truly fanfiction then why does bungie uses the spartan III program,as they appeared the ghosts of onyx a books from eric nylund. Seems like bungie uses elements from halo books and opther things and yet they say -blam!- you to it. I'm happy that they won't touch Halo anymore at least 343 industries respects the Halo EU. [/quote] Microsoft own Halo, that is true, but Bungie, to my understanding of their contract, as long as Microsoft owned Bungie, Bungie had all the creative control over Halo, and now that Bungie is independent again, Microsoft created 343 to be the creative control of Halo. And while Reach was being made the change of authority had not completely happened, 343 existed, yes, but they and Bungie were preparing for 343 to take over and fill their shoes as the Halo authority. 343 got the Halo Bible once Reach was completed, not before, Bungie is officially done with Halo now, all they can do is post support updates and such for Reach, they no longer have story control. And Bungie are the ones who created the Halo Story Bible, anything the authors write comes from within there, they get the one little piece(s) that have to do with their story and that's it. So Bungie did create the SIIIs, it's just Nylund who fleshed them out.
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    hotshot revan II

    hotshot revan II

    1/23/2011 5:28:34 PM Permalink
    The fall of Reach came before Halo ce and showed info of the backstory of the UNSC like their history. According to 343 industries the owners of the Halo canon,the books are canon too just below the game canon. They could have kept the canon intact except making the battle several hours longer.The battle was massive and bloody in the books,we didn't saw much of this in the game that's why many of us are disspointed. I doubt that Bungie created the spartan III,i mean they only created the master chiefnthe other spartans were created by others except Noble team. Bungie even uses alot of cool things from the books in their game(like the sIII,commonwealth,orbital defense platforms,...) but yet they ignore and ruin the canon,i think that's disrespectuful to the Halo Story I think you should buy the books,they are a good read :)
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    Sora Ai

    Sora Ai

    1/23/2011 3:12:28 PM Permalink
    @hotshot revan II Unless I'm mistaken, the games came before the books. I understand your point where Eric created the story bible, but that's usually at the behest of who commissions him to do so. Bungie had ideals that they basically told him to flesh out. In the end, things like the Spartan II and III project were of Bungie's ideals, fleshed out by Eric. However when you play the games, there's no ideal that there are different types of Spartans... (Unless there's something in some of the hidden things I've yet to find. Forgive me, I've only played Halo 1,2,3 and Reach. No Wars or ODST yet.) Also, I consider books to be authorized 'fanfiction'. It's just a way I view it, personal view. Can't stress that enough cause I'm sure no one here see it as the same. My main point though was stating that it was to be expected that the game would not follow the events exactly as they unfolded in the book, generally for the sake of keeping gameplay engaging. One person mentioned they cringed when Jorge rose to protect Sara at Sword Base. Emile replies that he forget's what he is. What people feel about Bungie attempting to humanize Spartan is divided, I didn't mind it so much. Seemed to be the only Spartan who gave an actual damn. And how ironically that he's the only Noble who's a Spartan II. But I suppose that is also irrelevant to the actual topic at hand.
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    hotshot revan II

    hotshot revan II

    1/23/2011 2:52:28 PM Permalink
    [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Sora Ai I want to weigh in on the conversation. I'll first like to state that I haven't read the books, so please bare with me as what I have to say is simple and I hope can come across as understandable. Retailing of the events on Reach should have been expected to be retconned because rarely does any form of media that retails a story from the original tend to do every thing in the exact same fashion. It's also worth noting that the book, Halo: Fall of Reach, was written by some one who was never part of Bungie or had anything to do with any of the story writing, telling and production in the games (which to me makes the book nothing more than official fanfiction commissioned and authorized by Bungie.) It really doesn't help to make sense of it all or get upset. It's a different way to tell the story, it's something to deal with.[/quote] Eric Nylund got the halo story bible,and he is the one who wrote story of the UNSC,rebels,spartans,...all bungie did is writing the story plot of the halo trilogy. And besides in that logic we can call bungie's work fanficxtion as well because microsoft own Halo and not Bungie. 343 industries has the story bible now,they say what canon is or not and bungie completely ignored them wrote their own stupid story. I think it's bad what bungie did Books are canon,if the books were truly fanfiction then why does bungie uses the spartan III program,as they appeared the ghosts of onyx a books from eric nylund. Seems like bungie uses elements from halo books and opther things and yet they say -blam!- you to it. I'm happy that they won't touch Halo anymore at least 343 industries respects the Halo EU.
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    Sora Ai

    Sora Ai

    1/23/2011 2:33:21 PM Permalink
    I want to weigh in on the conversation. I'll first like to state that I haven't read the books, so please bare with me as what I have to say is simple and I hope can come across as understandable. Retailing of the events on Reach should have been expected to be retconned because rarely does any form of media that retails a story from the original tend to do every thing in the exact same fashion. It's also worth noting that the book, Halo: Fall of Reach, was written by some one who was never part of Bungie or had anything to do with any of the story writing, telling and production in the games (which to me makes the book nothing more than official fanfiction commissioned and authorized by Bungie.) It really doesn't help to make sense of it all or get upset. It's a different way to tell the story, it's something to deal with.
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    kruse93

    kruse93

    1/23/2011 1:35:40 PM Permalink
    [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] privet caboose Reach did break canon. Infact, it breaks canon within the first 5 minutes of the game. Reach fell on August 30th. That's the day the Covenant found Reach, and decimated the UNSC Fleet. All in one day. The game says that the UNSC lost in over a months time. And without the UNSC even putting up a real fight. It was as if Reach was some random farmer colony. [/quote] There are two aproaches to look at this from, Bungie broke the cannon wiht the edited events and timeline or that Halo Reachs cannon can be edited because its Bungies game and is not part of the novel cannon. I however aproache this in the same way as Private Caboose the game is very different to the book.
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    hotshot revan II

    hotshot revan II

    1/23/2011 12:27:40 PM Permalink
    [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] kit_103 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] hotshot revan II 1)Somehow during the battle when the UNSC desperatley needed every ship they can have to combat the covies and yet they use a few of them just to being down the Autumn?Doesn't makes any sense[/quote] [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] OrderedComa 1. I believe that Kit probably wasn't talking Ship of the Line combat sort of ships, probably something small and like those rocket tugships we saw getting the Autumn off the ground.[/quote] Pretty much this. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] hotshot revan II -No just no. It hasn't anything to do with just dates. Explain me how Halsey was talking to the sII's during the operation red flag briefing on the 27th of august. According to Jun Red Team was reassigned to civilian bla bla on the 23th of August.Why continue with the red flag briefing if you are in the middle of war? And SWORD base was occupied by the covies at the 23th as well.Said by Jun as well So please tell me how did Halsey talked with her sII's on the 27th if she was stuck in sword base between the 14th and 29th of August???[/quote] I'd probably go with video communication. Pull them from their duties for a short bit, brief them on the the objective and let them go. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] hotshot revan II -The entire vierry territoy was at war on the 12th,it's the size of a large continent.You think civilians wouldn't have noticed that?[/quote] Considering that the Viery region was nothing more then wastelands...that's a simple cover up. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] hotshot revan II -The supercarrier destroying the UNSC fleet at Reach,something the civilians should have noticed as well -New alexandira -..many more[/quote] Of course people are gonna notice that, especially at the end of LNoS. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] hotshot revan II ONI couldn't have kept it a secret,but why not evacuate civilians?Last time i checked UNSC would always evacuate civilans if a planet get's attacked.And the cole protocl has not been used??Why????Give me one good reason for all of this.[/quote] You just took out an assault carrier (or whatever the frack it's called) along with anything else on the ground. Pretty sure one would be feeling mighty victorious at that point. What's the point of evacing civvies when you "won"? And I was under the impression Winter Contingency was higher priority then the Cole Protocol. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] hotshot revan II This games contradicts with all forms of previous canon,even with Halo ce and with the journal. This game is a total disaster.[/quote] Doesn't contradict Halo CE. It fits in perfectly. It does however, screw things up in the book. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] hotshot revan II Why do bungie fans don't admit this,Reach wtfpwned the Halo canon.[/quote] It wtfpwned the last bit of [i]FoR[/i] and the beginning of [i]FS[/i]. Everything else is intact. We're gonna have to assume that Jun dies before reaching Castle Base, which would save [i]GoO[/i]. I won't take legendary commentary as canon IMO. I willing admit that yes, this game has screwed up canon. I won't argue against that. But it's fixable. Fix the dates. Fix how encounters went down. It's gonna be a messy job yes and people aren't gonna like it but in the end...it'll work. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Plasma3150 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] kit_103 True, I have problem with a month long invasion but starting said attack somewhere in mid-August? I would have been fine with that IMO.[/quote]The actual invasion started in Mid-August. The Covenant encountered before the ending cutscene of the level [i]Long Night of Solace[/i] were more or less an expeditionary force.[/quote] True true. Thanks for the catch. And Coma, I like you already. ^^[/quote] -Explained in my previous post -I don't think you read the journal or the books or else you would have known that Halsey talked to the spartans face to face. -No vierry was home to the largest citys on Reach around the circular lake -They should have noticed that at the beginning of the vierry battle and even sword base attack.I have to remind you that the covies attacked on the 30th as a surprise attack. -Indeed,except that cortana in Halo ce didn't knew anything about the forerunners till she accesed the contol room,but in Reach she got access to a large forerunner structure with knowledge of their entire civilisation,my ass. -I have no problem with Jun surviving and yes you are right but it also contradicts the journal. They will have to sacrifise alot of things to blend the 2 together. I personally enjoyed the old fall of reach far more then this one.The new one doesn't makes any sense And sorry for my overeacting behavior in this thread guys
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    hotshot revan II

    hotshot revan II

    1/23/2011 12:19:33 PM Permalink
    [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] OrderedComa [quote][b]Posted By:[/b] hotshot revan II -There are two scenerios with this: 1)Somehow during the battle when the UNSC desperatley needed every ship they can have to combat the covies and yet they use a few of them just to being down the Autumn?Doesn't makes any sense 2)Most likely what happened in the game:The autumn never fought in space combat it was all the time on ground(Halsey said on the 29th that autumn was already waiting) .This ruins canon as well because who did dropped blue team at the spacestation?What happened with Red Team?.... Linda doesn't dies,James neither,no Red team jump,.... Canon=destroyed[/quote] 1. I believe that Kit probably wasn't talking Ship of the Line combat sort of ships, probably something small and like those rocket tugships we saw getting the Autumn off the ground. 2. Halsey did not say it was already waiting for them, she it [i]will[/i] be awaiting their arrival. If it was on the ground all along then (which I highly doubt) then Red Team simply got to the generators a different way, and all those except the survivors in FS died/went MIA defending them, nothing ruined there. If the Circumference Op never happened, then Linda either dies a different way, or just doesn't die at all and is put with Red Team along with James. [quote] -No just no. It hasn't anything to do with just dates. Explain me how Halsey was talking to the sII's during the operation red flag briefing on the 27th of august. And SWORD base was occupied by the covies at the 23th as well.Said by Jun as well. So please tell me how did Halsey talked with her sII's on the 27th if she was stuck in sword base between the 14th and 29th of August??? [/quote] Video Conference? :P But seriously, either Red Flag briefing didn't happen, or it was [i]earlier[/i] than the book said. Jun never mentions anything about SWORD Base except his exclamation about "The Covenant own it now!" when they're told about the Torch and Burn Op. [quote]The month long battle is BS.How could +150 ships survive a covie fleet(314-750 ships) for a month and ONI couldn't have kept the invasion as secret for a month for the following reasons -The covenant glassed the citys around the circular lake during the 14th of august,this can be observed in the lnos level . -The entire vierry territoy was at war on the 12th,it's the size of a large continent.You think civilians wouldn't have noticed that? -The supercarrier destroying the UNSC fleet at Reach,something the civilians should have noticed as well -New alexandira -..many more ONI couldn't have kept it a secret,but why not evacuate civilians?Last time i checked UNSC would always evacuate civilans if a planet get's attacked.And the cole protocl has not been used??Why????Give me one good reason for all of this. And what's the ponit again of red flag briefing if the godamn covies were fighting above your head. This games contradicts with all forms of previous canon,even with Halo ce and with the journal. This game is a total disaster. [/quote] They do not last a month against 300-something ships, you're right about that. They last two weeks, last I checked a month was [i]four[/i] weeks. The whole 750+ ships was an error, it's still 300-something Covie ships. And as I have said quite a few times before, if it was kept secret at all, it was only until the Long Night of Solace was revealed. Why create mass-panic and hysteria if it's only a handful of ships that can easily be dispatched, by saying the Covenant are on Reach? What pray tell, does it conflict with CE about? You just pulled that statement out of your ass didn't you? And it can't contradict the Journal either, as the whole point of it was to explain questions raised by Reach, pulled that one out of your ass too didn't you? Kit is right, you are overreacting.[/quote] 1)The autumn was in the middle of combat in space,if some unarmed vessels arrive to bring the autumn to aszod,you think the covies will just stay and watch?No they would have blasted thos ships out of orbit because the entire UNSC fleet was nearly obliterated when the autumn was about to escape. And i really think that in that game,the autumn never fought in space but stayed on ground all the time.If this is true then blue team couldn't have fought in space,red team wouldn't have had a disaster crash. 2)No Halsey:...Perhaps more.You are to take her to the UNSC ship-breaking yards in Aszod.There,you will find a Halycon-class cruiser waiting to get her off planet Seems like the autumn is already there unless Halsey could magically predict the autumn succesfully landing there with no problem Auntie Dot:UNSC cruiser,Pillar of autumn is awaiting your arrival. Looks like tha autumn was already on Reach at ht end of the 29th or the beginning of the 30th.In the books tha autumn was in space preparing to leave the system(prophet hunt) -Nope according to the fall of reach and even Dr Halsey's journal,Halsey talked to her spartans face to face and not a video conference.The red breifing did happen,but like i said before i guess bungie ingored the journal(typical). Remember the cutscene of the sabre docking into the anchor 9?You see plasmabombardement,one of those explosions was near SWORD and auntie dot said this: "There is nothing you can do for Halsey and the others inside SWORD base." Halsey couldn't have escaped sword when the area had been glassed. Jun:SWORD?The covenant own it now." The covenant contolled sword base,Halsey couldn't have escaped it.The game contradicts with the journal and the books.So why putting that journal into the Reach editions if both contradict eachother? I get the feeling that Bungie ingores the halo canon from other authors and think their own vision is canon.They have no rights to do that.Microsoft and 343 own Halo and not Bungie,so why change canon without asking 343 first? Look what Bungie says: [quote]"We did take some liberty," said Lehto. "In the book, I believe the Pillar of Autumn is in orbit at a docking station. We talked to [Eric] Nylund [the author of "The Fall of Reach"] about the whole event structure and we got the chronology of it down to where we felt comfortable with the little bends we were taking to make sure it worked best for the game and best for our game's fiction. [u]We've had discrepancies with Nylund[/u] on what we believe is canon and what should be made sacred in the canon. But that's always the case [u]when you have others outside of Bungie building the fiction for the "Halo[/u] " universe."[/quote] hahahaha,sorry for laughing but read this.Bungie say they only talked with Nylund about this and not 343.Last time i checked microsoft and 343 owned Halo and the story bible and not bungie.So why did bungie said "Bungie's canon".This is a huge confirmation that they said -blam!- you to the halo canon(excluding their works),Eric nylund and 343 industries. The story of the book was far far better then the game's.Most of the halo fans will agree on this. -The 750 ships comes from Lord Hoods quote and the new fall of reach.And as Holland says,the covie fleet arrived at the 14th.Seems like 150 inferior UNSC ships were fighting 300-750 superior ships.Weird how did the UNSC survived that long?Did they had Forerunner ships?*sarcasm* An inferior outnumbered outgunned fleet could not survive the slaughter of a massive covie fleet for weeks.One salvo of that fleet would decimate the UNSC fleet.But again it's bungie people who don't give a -blam!- about the fiction. What happened with them,they were so good during the halo trilogy but now... -They couldn't have kept it a secret till the supercarrier show.An entire massive continent was at war. [url]http://www.halopedian.com/images/b/b5/Viery.jpg[/url] The largest citys of Reach are located at those circular lakes and as seen in that picture there was war in the citys as well.Just face it the cvivilians know it.And according to the books the arrival of the covies on the 30th was a surprise. -Massive panic?It's the goddamn Covenant empire with fleets numbering in thousands and with ships that can travel at +900 light years a day.Any covenant fleet could travel in a matter of hours in the UNSC teriroty and can send reinforcements in a matter of hours. Why didn't they avacuated the 700 million civilians?They know that any covenant fleet could arrive in a matter of hours.So they risk the death of all civilians because they stupidly belive that the covies wouldn't send reinforcements soon? (het were lucky that the covies waited to long to send a large fleet,stupid plot shield) Seems the UNSC did the wrong decision as everyone on Reach died except a dozen UNSC warships escaped the onslaught. UNSC and Covenant jsut became the margest retards in sciencefiction history thanks to bungie. -It conflicts with CE because cortana didn't knew who the forerunners are in Halo ce but in Reach she absorbes massive amounts of Forerunner knowledge. Just face it Bungie ruined everything and you guys can't admit it.Even marvus letho admitted it in that interview,they even didn't asked 343 industires the owners of the halo canon and think that "their canon" is higher above all of the others. The reason they contradicted the books is because they think they might make the game story far better .To bad they failed as most halo fans will agree that the Reach story isn't better then the previous games.The lack of massive battle scope,poor writing,... And yes i'm overreacting my apoligies for that [Edited on 01.23.2011 4:30 AM PST]
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    a roachclip58

    a roachclip58

    1/23/2011 7:19:58 AM Permalink
    in halo two, they mention the poa fleeing the planet in the opening sequence, so im pree sure that it was on if not in the orbit of reach
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    Beowolfe

    Beowolfe

    1/23/2011 7:04:47 AM Permalink
    [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] daman825 [/quote] sarcastic comment? he does what hes told throughout the campaign. And if i remember right, he never questions his orders.[/quote] Sarcastic comment was referring to Alpha, not you. Sure, Emile didn't question his orders in game, but that's probably because he had under 20 lines in the entire game. Still doesn't stop his death from being the proof that he doesn't make a good Spartan. *edit: much less make a good Noble Team member. [Edited on 01.22.2011 11:05 PM PST]
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    PublicToast
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    Doctor Mod
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