1. Some MMO are now going the horizontal progression way, and while Destiny is not a MMO, it still shares a lot more affinities with horizontal games like Guild Wars 2 than old school vertical progression like WoW. They could have chosen another way to do things. 2. In horizontal progression, fun is all there is, even in grind. You never lose what you grinded for, it's not made obsolete in that short frametime. You can even leave the game for a bit, come back and you're still in the game, able to play all contents and works on goal like farming for a legendary weapon for months, litteraly. When new content is added in a horizontal MMO, things are added to the game, never removed. New stats, new traits, new subclass, new weapon/armor skin and the list goes on. Before the DLC, Destiny felt so much like a horizontal MMO that I really couldn't predict their 180 turn in the other direction. They dont share enough with vertical progression game like WoW to succeed IMHO. And I still play the game, because you're right, it's fun. But it could be more than fun, with real goals to work for and a real focus. WoW/Everquest/DCUO/etc were the best to make you run after an carrot you'll never reach, expansion after expansion. Guild wars 2 made it relevant to rerun old content, help new players and keeping the old content from becoming obsolete every new patch. Those patch werent out 3 months after launch either. I think we must be 'constructively' vocal about this, because while trial and error can happen in any game, I don't think I'm alone thinking they would make a better game out of this by choosing other ways to do things, particulary by exploring the horizontal progression with which they already share so much.

Destiny is a "vertical" game. With gear progression taking the place of skill tree progression. The way Destiny is structured they have to have you replace your gear or the game stagnates.

In horizontal games, you still level up and gear up in rarity. Some facts that Destiny is closer an horizontal one: 1- You're never Godlike: Even at max level, you always scale to the content. You can't carry low level in Scarlet Monastery on follow while you solo the boss head on without taking any damage. Vertical games tends to make you feel godlike, and the more expansion there is, the more gap there is between new and old players. 2- Loot is bad: In GW2 and Destiny, we are oveflowing with greens and blues, rarely purple and exotic. And they normally are disenchant on the spot, because they're always useless. Why is this? Because when you loot/buy a legendary, you're suppose to keep it for a long, long time. In vertical games, they can be more generous and diverse, because you wont keep it for long, until the next expansion or item level comes out, you'll have to change anyway. 3- Low amount of content: In vertical games, content is normally abundant, because you need to 'progress' up to the top, but low level content doesnt benefit your progression in any way (no exp or loot scaled to your level) which means content get obsolete. In horizontal games, again you scale to old content, which means even with 6 strikes and 1 raid, you still could earn a lot of things replaying those content with old and new players alike, and the grind is fun regardless of content. Since the DLC, they changed the direction, and rendered VoG useless for example, with chests and boss dropping attack 300 exotic and such. The whole game is screaming horizontal, yet the DLC decided to try something else, and IMHO failed to deliver correctly those changes. I strongly believe that Destiny is a 'FPSMMOish' with horizontal progression and should stick that way if it wish to catter to all type of players.

We'll have to agree to disagree. Because I think your intepretation of certain aspects of Destiny's game design is at odds with Bungie's stated reasons for doing things that way. The scaling in PvE is the for the same reason there is normalization in PvP. So that you preserve playability, and it allows players of widely differnt character class levels to play together. A "godlike" level 31 isn't going to want to play with a leve 8 if all the enemies the level 8 can play against the level 31 can one-shot, and they can do no significant damage to him in return. Like I said. Destiny is like every other traditional RPG. The only design difference is the skill tree tops out at about level 24....and that function is taken over by gear and the accumulation fo EXP THROUGH the gear from level 20 on. So all progression and all new powers are going to have to come through the acquiring of new gear. So all you had to do was look ahead to see what was coming. No new gear...no new abilites. Just more damage if you just allow upgrading of existig gear.

I agree to disagree, but if you dont mind, in a 'good mood discussion tone', I'll keep us entertained for a bit, because you raised some points which are contrary to popular vertical MMO too, while claiming they are associated with that type of game. In normal vertical PvE progression games, dynamic scaling never occurs, you are a God. Everytime. WoW, Diablo, Borderlands, Everquest, Warframe, FF 1-15, you name it, they make low level content obsolete everytime. You only run in there and one shot everything to either farm for low level crafting or to litteraly carry a friend, and the friend normally feels useless because he can't do a thing. No exp gain from it and no loot associated to your level. So right here, Destiny doesnt fit. Horizontal progression does the exact opposite and is exactly like Destiny pre-DLC. Even if new powers come from acquiring gear, they could have done so by upgrading existing gears with extra nodes (and perks, why not!). This way, people keep their beloved guns and armor, but still have to progress. They could work to buy the new skins, new perks, etc. They could've add new powers in each classes subtree, new perks, a reforge system to keep you grinding. Anything to NOT invalidate the time spent. Alas, they chose the easier way, let's reskin and reset everything, but keep the horizontal way of doing things for some stuff like dynamic scaling. So in reality you have to work again, but for the same reward, not a new one. Daily lvl 30 aren't more rewarding than the 28 was, neither is the Vanguard Roc or the 30 Weekly and Nightfall. Same reward but you need to regrind to be able to be rewarded again. Even in vertical games, I rarely lost privileges after a DLC. Again, I'm just arguing for the sake of arguing, not trying to convince you, but I hope my point is more clear :)

I think you need to go back and review what I said. I said PROGRESSION is like other RPGs---which you call "vertical". But with the difference that progression after level 20 is done through the acquiring and pouring EXP into more powerful gear with new abilities, rather than into a character class skill tree. I said that you are attaching interprteration to things that are at odds with Bungie's stated reason for doing them. You get the "dynamic scaling" because Bungie wanted players of widely differing levels to be able to play together There is no incentive to do that, if low-level enemies pose absolutely no threat to a high level player....and a low level player poses no threat to highlevel enemies. The issue isn't one of "vertical" or "horizontal" but what is the RECIPIENT of EXP, and the primary mechanism by which new powers are granted to the player. Ingames like Diablo and WoW that is the character class skill tree...with a little gear "garnish". But in Destiny that is the gear your Guardian is wearing. after level 20. Because the character class skill tree never gets any bigger or has anything new added. So WITHOUT swapping out gear...the game stagnates. Because there are no other mechanisms by which to make the character more powerful, or able to do new things.

I agree if more people could relax and just shoot some aliens they would be a lot more happy

Not going to happen. ON many levels. 1. Destiny is a new kind of game....and change makes some people frightened and resentful. 2. Destiny has one of the biggest budgets in videogame history. Partnering with Activision make them a great target for people to show their anti-establishment and anti-corporate bona fides. 3. Destiny is trying to combine two games genres that are very different, and attract very different types of gamers who are looking for very differnt experiences. So you are getting a lot of anger as both of these groups try bash and badmouth Bungie into making Destiny into a "purer" version of what they are used to. RPG gamers want more "stuff" and a bigger world...but just ignore the fact that all MMOs start out "small" in their infancy and that being an FPS requires putting rigid limits on the play space. FPS gamers want their CoD/Battlefield experience....but just want to ignore that this is incompatible with the progression and gear asymmetries that are a part of every RPG. 4. Console gamers tend to be younger and have less money that PC gamers. So you are getting a lot of backlash against the modular expansion that Destiny is using. Because the expansions for this game really aren't optional. If you don't buy them the game will move on past you and leave you behind. So that is also fueling some resentment. 5. Bungie, also could be doing a better job in softening some of these blows. As a PC-based, RPG gamer for many years, I've had very few suprises here. Because I'm familiar with these types of games, and I hear the undercurrents that Bungie often prefaces things with by their word selection. Calling TDB an "expansion" and not a "DLC" has a VERY specific meaning to a PC gamer....so I was expecting pretty much everything they did withit. But many console gamers don't have that kind of background...and are not used to a lot of things that more PC based games do. So Deej really need to do a better job in not assuming that everyone is going to be expecting...and understand the rationale behind....many of the things they do. As a PC gamer----95% of what they've done makes perfect sense to me....even if I don't agree with all of it. To someone who is a console gamer, I'm sure a lot of it just baffling.

Perfectly explained. If people could stop, think and look at everything in destiny from a different perspective they wont have a reason to complain.

True. But as someone a hell of a lot wiser than me once said: "The central fact of the human drama is that we all want the world to change....so that we can stay the same." Everyone else has to leave THEIR comfort zone, so that I get to stay in MINE.

Lol, maybe bungie should rip everyone out of their comfort zone (eg no exotic upgrades, no new buffed version) then patch a fix the following week (xur upgrade) and be heralded as heroes?

Just stop it already. This game is not an MMO. It meets none of the criteria.

Actually it meets all of them. All an "MMO" is...is a on-line game that creates a persistent, server-based game world which allows many pepole to play, cooperate and compete simultaneously. Furthermore, Destiny is a game that borrows HEAVILY from how typical MMO-RPGs structure their game worlds and how they expand upon them.

This game is the shittiest mmo i ever played.

Compared to pure MMO-RPGs......I'm sure. But the combintation of FPS, MMO, and RPG makes Destiny one of the best and most addictive action-RPGs I've played in over 20 years of playing such games.

so you never played halo? battlefield? gta? cmon. I feel like some of you secretly work for bungie just to call it the best game ever. Best game in 20 years in what dimension.

No, I don't work for Bungie. I've TRIED to play every version of Halo out there. None of them managed to hold my interest for more than about 15 mins. Same with BF3 and BF4.....and about four other versions of CoD. What I am is a PC gamer for the last 20 years who started playing console games again with this "next gen" of hardware. Because I don't like playing shooters and others types of games on PC...and the consoles are finally powerful enough to give a PC-quality gaming experience. Destiny is a great FUSION game. A game that combines elements of FPS, MMO, action-RPG and RTS all under one roof. Which allows me to "scratch" the itches for all my favorite types of games with ONE game. As a fan of Diablo's 1, 2 and 3...I am grinder at heart. Having grown up with games FAR FAR smaller than the behemoths this current generation of gamers has become spoiled by....I long ago mastered the ability to find new ways to challenge myself with familar game material. The first Diablo game fit onto a single CD-ROM. That's 500-750 MB. Which is why I just shake my head and laugh when I hear people insist that games that fill up entire Blu-ray discs and have continuous on-line downloadable support are "too small". That's 40 GB, by the way. The only game, that I've had nearly this much fun playing was the PC game Civilization III. Which is an addictive monster of a game to anyone who likes RTS games. The game play in Destiny has the same effect on me that Civ III did.

I call bullshit, but how are you a pc gamer and not even mention skyrim? A game destiny doesn't hold a candle to. Maybe you just love grinding, but theres no story to this game NO real reason you do what you do. Its just a bunch of repetitive crap you can't even brag about to your friends because anyone could do it. As for you i always assumed PC gamers had better taste, clearly i was mistaken.

1. I didn't mention Skyrim because my work responsibilities don't allow me to committ that kind of time to playing a game any more. 2. What you call 'Grinding" I call problem solving. Which is the whole POINT of strategy/simulator games. 3. There is actually a very good story being told here. It's just being told in an unusual fashion, and in a way that requires active participation on the part of the player. Unfortunately, many people lack the patience or the desire to actively engage in it. The *story* being told is the story of your Guardian's role in larger-than-life mythic events About a world emerging from a Dark Age who's world is in ruins, and whose history has been lost to legend. Caught up in a war between powerful-but-mysterious forces. It will be up to your guardian to help piece together that history, win the war, and discovery who these forces are and what they stand for. ...and we aer still in the first chapter of that story. 4. Actually my taste is quite good actually. But instead of sitting back and complaining---and saying "Spoon feed me!!"-----, I'm actually actively engaged WITH the game and understand what it is trying to tell us.