I'm not ready to say with 100% certainty that we will have to pay for the rest of the game. We might. I don't know. I know that their are expansions, as do we all, and that those are behind a paywall. In my OP, I point out that vanilla Borderlands 1 was in a similar situation. The DLC cost money and the game doesn't feel complete without them. I get the feeling of disappointment, I truly do. I just think that if you can't at least try to look at it a little differently, independent of the rampant negativity, and enjoy it for what it is, then you will likely never be happy with it, no mater what they do. [b]This game will always have detractors, no matter what Bungie does from here on out.[/b]

I disagree with the borderlands 1 comment, it came it and it was a solid shooter, the classes had different play styles and the game had a complete story. It may not have been exploding with content like borderlands 2 but it was a solid and complete game. Also stop giving companies a pass because of game engines. Generally there is a team dedicated to the game engine and others dedicated to art assets/maps/gameplay... basically if a game comes out and they spent all the time on the engine that's the companies problem for not managing their time well. Theres a lot that has to come together and once they release the first game they not only have a engine but a gameplay formula as well as art assets that can likely be reused for another. Destiny for w/e reason didn't come together well in the end, the open world areas don't have anything compelling to do in them, communication is broked, the story missions are split up into very small segments with a lot of backtracking since the missions required you to go into orbit after completion, and have the same starting point on each area... for someone like me that only plays competitive multiplayer with bf4, destiny isn't even close to a complete experience with the sp/coop and barely reaches average. The original borderlands was more engaging in the first hour than the entirety of destiny.

If you have Borderlands 1, delete the DLC. Now play the game. It is not even close to a full experience. Be honest with yourself. Without the engine being nearly fully developed, the art team can do models, that's it. The designers can't do shit. It isn't a free pass. This happens to varying degrees with new IPs and new engines.

I've never played the dlc for borderlands 1. I've only had the vanilla copy for xbox and I have very fond memories of co-op. The game play in destiny could easily be done in something like halos engine for design/prototyping, map design, plot/story. If you think they have a lot of there developers that are work on those elements sitting around waiting for a new engine for more particle effects and the ability to have global illumination with real time dynamic lighting is stopping them from using existing tools to design out map layouts and experiment with gameplay formulas you are sadly mistaken. They can even do cut scenes using wireframes while they wait for the graphics to be ready, in fact its usually best to start like that and fill the graphics in later. There are a lot of new ideas going into a new IP, even if they are shorter they are still complete enjoyable experiences. Destinys got great shooting mechanics, but that's it, there are plenty of shooters that will have better enemy engagements, more diverse enemies. Destiny all to often throws a few enemies at you then you hit a point where you have to make a stand to murder waves of enemies. I'd also like to point out halo... from a company that made a new IP halo and it was the only reason to own the original xbox for a very long time, they completely dropped the ball with destiny.

You cannot compare the original Halo to this. The scale and scope of games were lower back then. You also have to realize that the Halo universe was largely fleshed in by canon created in the novels and outside of the games or by subsequent titles. The original Halo had a story, but it wasn't a masterpiece of storytelling. I'm not saying that you are wrong. I will admit to this game's flaws. As of a few days ago, I was saying very similar things. I'm saying that it is natural for a new IP to come out and not be all that it can be. That goes double for a game that exists in this type of format. The game is made to have things added and/or changed as often as they would like. No, I don't think that they had a ton of designers just sitting around. Typically, a team of designers fleshes out the entire game on paper in what's known as a GDD (actually there are tons of GDDs for any game, pertaining to every facet of the game). Once production begins in earnest, they HIRE more developers to help them make the game. Developers staff shrinks and swells depending on the workload and where they are at in the development cycle.

I never said halo was a masterpiece at story telling, but there was a story to the original halo hat made sense, and there was a sensation of discovery learning about the ring. The story focused on the ring and completely explained what was needed so players would understand what was going on but still left a lot unexplained about the war with the covenant. What did we discover in Destiny?? That all the characters were to busy to bother giving the player an explanation for anything. And its a perfect game to compare Destiny with because the sp had a bigger campaign, more variety in enemy engagements, better replay ability and in the long run more fun with co-op. And the local mp probably had just as much if not more to do. They are still outputting patches for halo pc edition, as well as a release from gear box to allow custom maps on the pc... Halo is a great game that they completely focused on doing just that. Its not only mechanically sound but its got its got that heart and soul to go with it. Destiny is a game that was designed for a 10 year cycle and they didn't focus on making a fantastic game, its mechanically working but that's it.

[quote]And its a perfect game to compare Destiny with[/quote] You gonna bust out the Mario comparisons next? [quote]sp had a bigger campaign[/quote] You can't say with any certainty how big the campaign is in this game. They could add another chunk of story next week. Who knows? Also, that isn't ALL there is. There are strikes. There is the raid. There are patrols and loot to gather. [quote]better replay ability and in the long run more fun with co-op [/quote] This is your opinion. I personally did enjoy the co-op in Halo: CE, but again, scope and scale were different back then. The bar is set much higher now. To compare them on that basis does neither title any justice. My aim here was not to sway people like you. It was to help the open minded player see things in a different light. Your mind was made up long before you posted your first comment. Again, I never said the game was without fault, I'm just looking at it in a way that I feel is likely far more appropriate, especially since I have recently learned a lot about classic development cycles that I didn't really think about before.

[quote]You gonna bust out the Mario comparisons next?[/quote] Obviously you pulled what I said out of context to try to make a valid rebuttal and instead now look silly, the rest of my argument was to back up this claim... they are both shooters, that are sci fi based, fighting against alien enemy, and are epic sagas of discovering ancient and alien technology. The game even plays like halo but with instance areas and super powers... [quote]You can't say with any certainty how big the campaign is in this game[/quote] I can say with certainty that the entirety of the sp + strikes could be completely in a single evening as well as most of the missions have poor pacing and diversity in encounters, patrols have completely unimaginative/repetitive missions. Critically halo was a fantastic shooter from start to finish, and really was a fantastic campaign, apart from a hallway that was really long that some people didn't like. My point was that halo was designed to be a great self contained game and succeeded at doing that. And because of how great it was its a franchise that lasted 10 years, probably going to be even more than that. The fact that people... gear box even... are supporting the pc port still shows that even the original has legs that won't quit. Destiny was planned out to last 10 years which they structured their game accordingly to be less of a self contained package and more of a base. I understand that. But the base has TOO many shortcomings that are designed to fill in later. Budgie's major mistake is planning on success it didn't have yet. You have your view, I feel its a little biased and overly sympathetic. Because your game dev major you know its difficult and we should look at it like its ok to fail. Bullshit. Look at games like batman aa, it came out, was a new IP, rocked. Borderlands may have been a shorter but for what it is, its great and has insanely fun weapons to find. Bioshock another great example of a new IP solid and great game and they had to heavily modify the unreal engine for the water effects. Didn't stop them from kicking ass. I'm not against your opinion but I'm completely committed to argue ring this point. Difficulty is not a justification for failure, and we shouldn't tell developers its ok to miss the target and sell us the fix after. On the other hand Destiny has a lot of questionable design decisions, short repetitive missions, events that have you playing through the same content, a loot system design to drag out "progression" while playing through the same content, absolutely no story and nothing to even make an attempt to explain anything to the player. It failed to recapture players the same way halo did and you know that's what bungie was hoping for. I totally understand your point, you can look at anything in good light if you try hard enough. Like I stepped on a nail and well... needed a tetanus shot any way! That doesn't change what is is though... and with that my copy of middlearth just downloaded and I should have plenty to do before the onslaught of Christmas games !! Destiny may have kicked off the holidy season with a fizzle but I think its going to be a good one to sweep this mishap under the rug.