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originally posted in: Don't people play for fun anymore?
9/16/2014 11:25:37 AM
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For the most part, I do play just to have fun. Which is why the majority of my gameplay has been PvE. However, I often have a group of friends online that want to play PvP, which is when I begin having way less fun. Not because I don't like PvP, don't get me wrong - I love it -, but some of the tactics in PvP are so cheap to anyone else not doing the exact same play-to-win style gameplay the enemy team is. I shouldn't have to practice slide shotgunning into a melee beatdown just to win against the other players who are doing the same thing - Especially if it's a titan sprinting at you with his shield/barrier up with a shotgun, or a hunter using his Blacedancer super(which lasts way too long). I understand that each class has it's specific role, and subclasses only aim to enhance that role, but there's no real balance between them all, which is the problem. There's no real counter to specific types of gameplay when factoring in class specific abilities. How is anyone supposed to really stop a titan charging at you with full health, an extra shield, and a shotgun? You can't. Even if you shotgun him straight in the head, with a full impact shotgun, he will live. How do you stop a hunter who just used his bladedancer super while you're not across the entire map with a sniper and supernatural reflexes? You don't, he can just sit and spam his melee/charge and never take any real damage because he's so impossible to hit, and god forbid you're ever even 50 feet from him, because you will die. Some things in PvP just need to be toned down a little, while others need a bit more of a buff. PvP right now just isn't entirely fun unless you consider charging at everyone with a shotgun fun. PvE, however, I find to be a wonderful experience, whether it be grinding strikes or just playing patrol on various planets. I think that's the main issue with this type of argument. Even people who do play to have fun, find it difficult to have fun when everyone just uses the most anti-fun tactics available, without regard to anyone else. Not to mention people dancing over your dead body after they just two-pieced you in PvP(Something even Gears of War nerfed after a while). It's pretty frustrating. For a company so accustomed to having to nerf similar tactics in other games, you'd thought they'd have learned by now. Till then, I'll just be playing mostly PvE unless I'm dragged into PvP by my friends.
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  • Haha dude I kill charging titans all the time. Just light up head shots with an auto rifle and they will melt. And ya it sucks getting killed by supers but it's balanced because all match everyone on both sides is dying to random supers. I've killed many blade dancers as they are running around trying to melee my team mates as well. It's all about headshots. They have a bit of bonus health while doing their super but are actually really vulnerable because they have to get into melee range before thy can do any damage. Don't complain about balance just because you don't know or don't have the skill to deal with certain situations

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  • No, bladedancers do no have to be within melee range to kill you. Their melee attack is already a gap closering charge attack, which is an instakill on-hit. They also have the ability to use a long range attack which can easily hit and kill you at a range. The problem with the bladedancer super is that is just lasts way too long for as mobile as they are, without being heavily penalized for not actually hitting anything. Just using their basic melee attack during that time can close such a big gap while using an insignificant amount of super energy is ridiculous. Whether it be on a small map or not, no one should ever, whether it be a small map or not, kill someone, wait for the 5 seconds it takes them to respawn, and without them barely even moving after respawning, kill them again during the same super. The time it's allowed to be used in PvP and just how forgiving it is when using - and missing - each hit, is ridiculous. I should NEVER be forced to make a new class just to adequately compete with other classes. That's a sure-fire way to identify imbalance. As well, the same goes for the Titan's ability to charge at someone, every few seconds, with a shotgun and a full shield(barrier on top of their normal shield). You can say that you kite them super hard and kill them with an auto rifle, but that's just not practical unless you're using an shingen class auto rifle( second highest rate of fire, second lowest impact). Anything outside of an exotic that's been fully upgraded will not deal with someone who rushes you from around a corner in that manner. As a long standing MMO player, when it comes to PvP, this is no where near as balanced as it could be. Even Runescape/Jagex has managed to fill the gaps between the three classes better than Destiny/Bungie has, and they were given a significant amount of feedback on the current issues, and the only real issue they touched on was that the interceptor was way too strong in it's current form. And don't try to tell me this isn't an MMO at it's heart. While that wasn't Bungie's intention, that's what they created by bringing everything you earn in PvE into multiplayer. No, level specific gear doesn't matter, but finding the right weapon definitely does. As well as the class you play. In literally every game I've ever played with different classes that make a difference in PvP, there's another class that directly counters it. For example, I played runescape a LOT. Mages>warriors>rangers>mages(Warlocks>Titans>Hunters>Warlocks). It creates a triangle of what counters what. That is what is considered healthy gameplay. Even Jagex, with as bad of a history that they had, managed to create a more transparent boundary between classes than Bungie did, and that's sad. When I can play any class(namely the Titan due to it's abilities and the current state of specific weapons *cough* shotgun *cough*), and be statistically better than any other class, that's a problem. As it stands, Titans>Hunters>Warlocks in PvP. Warlocks are not better than anything in comparison, and that's a problem. When you have a one way ticket of whats-better-than-what, that's an[u][i][b] extremely [/b] [/i][/u] large indication of poor interaction, counterplay, and balance between classes - when such things exist in any PvP setting. While it's beyond my scope of knowledge and interest, I'm 100% certain that anyone with any WoW experience, or any other PvP game with class-specific multiplayer-type gameplay will agree. [b]To support healthy, longterm PvP gameplay, the developer must balance different classes to either be all equal, or to counter one another, [u]especially if they want to make their product last longer any average game[/u].[/b] Both of which Bungie has failed to do, in all respects. In it's current form, it will turn into all hunters and titans, with absolutely no warlocks except for the random person who insists they're better than everyone else and chooses to play a Warlock to prove it. Titan's will continue to use either every AOE-based ability upgrade possible, and Hunters will only use bladedancer in PvP. When certain classes, and their subclasses, are far more powerful than any other ability of another specific subclass, there's a problem - and to not express that publicly, or agree to that notion, only shows the type of game you which to play(one in which there's a clear power spike in specific abilities of subclasses over every other, which not only makes them unique, but also overshadows everything else). At which point, if that's the game you wish to play, I will be selling this game rather shortly if there's not any attempt towards a balance change soon. There are tons of other games I could play with blatantly overpowered classes if I needed that type of "fun." To me, imbalance is not fun, which is the point of this post.

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  • You're putting waaayyyyyy too much emphasis on the difference between classes dude. In the end, the vast majority of my kills come from my skills shooting a gun. Skill is a way bigger modifier in destiny than any other traditional mmo. I get just as many kills with my warlock as I do with my blade dancer because in the end, it comes down to how good you are on the trigger and down the sights. This isn't a point and click game of Rock Paper Scissors. This is a skill based, tactical shooter. The class abilities and supers are just bonuses on top that add to whatever skill you have underneath. Get better and you'll realize that the difference between classes is just pennies

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  • I'm going to guess you haven't played enough PvP to see a bladedancer hunter get 6+ kills before his ult ends. Or that you're just another person that uses only shotguns to run people down and then use your super for whatever your class(which is almost always at least 1 or more free kill, depending on how wisely you use it, [b]and your class.[/b] As a Warlock, sure, you can use your super on a control or salvage point, but that's about it. The windup is so long for the time you're forced to expose yourself, it's ridiculous. I've actually timed it, you can consistently use the gunslinger super, and the the fist of havoc(titan super) within .5 seconds - far above the average human response time, even with 200 ping) and kill a Warlock before they can use their super AND still not die if they manage to actually send it off. The average time between the use of the Warlock's super, and it actually becoming a projectile is ~900ms, not including ping(including average ping for the Destiny servers would be around 1.1s. The Titan's makes him nearly invulnerable, both his bubble and fist of havoc, as well as the bladedancer and gunslinger for the hunter. The sun singer subclass for the Warlock barely has a true super ability. Okay, I can bring myself back to life, cool. I I still died in the process. Okay, I take less damage, but the bladedancer, gunslinger, and fist of havoc all still OHK it. Shotguns are still able to OHK a sun singer warlock taking reduced damage. The only difference is in fusion and primary weapons(which is overshadowed by how readily available secondary ammo is). Yes, it's a "tactical shooter." Yes, you can "outplay," people most of the time, but that does [b]not[/b] make the fact that some classes are just simply stronger than others, and that some weapon classes consistently do better than others without any real penalty in most matches makes for a game that becomes stale rather quickly. Go ahead, argue the contrary all you want. You're only shortening the lifespan of the game you(and I) love in the longrun. With as lackluster as the story mode was, and with as little of true endgame content available at launch, this game will be forgotten quickly without PvP - which means PvP will require balance updates if it wants to survive in the longrun. I love the PvE, personally. With a history of MMO experience, I really don't mind having to grind for items/levels on other characters. I do, however, mind that the game I spent a lump sum of money for, and to play for a relatively long period of time, manages to be as imbalanced as it is PvP-wise, even after all the feedback given to the subject. I don't like that the major portion of the game that's supposed to hold us over until the expansions are released hold as much anti-fun mechanics I've seen since the League of Legends beta(where almost every single champion has gone through multiple mechanic and number balance-based changes throughout the years due to anti-fun, anti-counterplay, and overall imbalanced issues with them).

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  • Bungie will balance the game out. They are masters at it. I bet the next patch will sort out all the issues you are so worried about. In the mean time, get better at shooting your gun. Based on your k/d in most games, you need to. I use the shotgun a few times a match. Very situational though. Mostly when I know another player is around a corner with a fusion rifle or shotgun. Other than that, the vast majority of my kills are from auto rifle and machine gun.

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