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7/31/2014 3:12:22 PM
382
All you kiddies that think MatchMaking wouldn't hurt Raiding, just ask a veteran WoW player.
We, in the WoW community, had the same discussion about raiding a few years ago when Blizzard went from Destiny's current model of raiding (find your own group) to LFG (which is basically MatchMaking).
I'll sum up what happened and try to be objective and un-biased in an attempt to explain what most of you might be missing in this argument.
The complaint back then was that more time was spent looking for a raid group than actual raiding. To be fair, a part of that was because the raid group was up to 40 players in the beginning, now it's 25.
After a few years, Blizzard eventually introduced LFG (which, like I said, is just like MatchMaking).
The initial result was what we expected, faster setup times pre-raid... but that had an undesirable effect that a big portion of the community did not anticipate.
You see, raids used to be a HUGE deal. They took hours and hours to setup, and even longer to progress. It was a grueling trial of not only skill, but leadership. You could have the talent and gear necessary in your group to complete the raid, but without some level headed leaders directing the group you would be destined to fail.
Finishing that hours/days/weeks long raid? That was the ultimate feeling. Finally, after all that time spent forming a group, training a group, making all those friends and enemies after nights of failure... you down that last boss. Nothing beats that feeling in gaming, nothing.
Now? The raids feel watered down. You log on, click that "find a group" button. Wait 10 minutes. Teleport to the raid, no words are spoken, just throwing 25 random players at a raid that most of the group has done 100 times already. No friends, no enemies. Just a sea of nameless, empty players grinding away at this now trivial Raid. Failure no longer means waiting a day to regroup because half the team had to go to sleep. Failure now means waiting another 10 minutes for another tank to queue up for the raid.
What used to feel massive and utterly rewarding has now become a chore. A chore that you must perform over and over again until you can find no enjoyment short of getting that occasional gear upgrade.
Blizzard addressed this by lowering the difficulty of "LFG" raids, and made "Normal" and "Heroic" modes that you HAD to group up for. But still, the damage has been done. You never enter a raid with your friends anymore. LFG has become mandatory to gear properly for the "Normal" and "Heroic" modes, but by then you've done these fights dozens of times. There's no thrill of exploring, no thrill of learning the fights and the map. Just a different type of grind that has already lost its appeal days/weeks before you even needed to find a real group to do it with.
Look, I know I said was going to try to remain unbiased, but the truth is MatchMaking ruins raiding. Raiding SHOULD NOT be something you do easily. Raiding is a test of your skill against PvE as much as it is a test of your communication skills. But when you allow for a "fast track" method to access the raids, you turn it into a chore that you simply throw yourself at until you arbitrarily find a group that has the DPS/HP numbers on their side.
If you're arguing FOR MatchMaking in raids, what you're asking Bungie to do is water down the whole raid experience. Yeah, you'll get to do raiding more often... and that sounds appealing. But I promise, you don't know what the long term damage will be.
Please consider this before you make another "PETITION FOR BUNGIE TO ADD MATCHMAKING TO RAIDS".
Thank you for reading.
English
#Destiny
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What ever. Stop crying
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Yes to all of this. Well put together.
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1 ReplyI played during those days, and I have to tell you, it's not applicable here. This isn't a 40 or even 25 man raid, it's 6 people. Shooters don't get harder, they get tougher. What I mean by that is when they up the difficulty in shooters it only amounts to adding more enemies, making the enemies have more health, having the enemies do more damage, or a combination of the three. Name me one shooter where that isn't the case. Think of the spider tank in devils lair. That fight wasn't hard, it was long. Developers do that all the time to simulate difficulty. This won't be any different. Six ransoms will absolutely be able to do them.
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4 RepliesThis ain't wow
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If people bitch about "bads" in pvp imagine trying to do a raid with them . Make friends... You don't usually see random groups clearing top tier content.
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20 RepliesThe truth about no matchmaking is it benefits the non taxpayer & kids the most. So if you have a career, wife & kids. Like most people on my friends list and me. You are shit out of luck no matter how good you are. To fix this like everyone is suggesting. Is be like Michael Jackson add a bunch of kids on my friends list. Or add a bunch of 20 year old low life living with mommy. And play with people who can afford 24-48hrs a week of in game time Bc they will always be on. Yeah sounds good to me. And wow and fps are completely different where most of the wait time in wow was on a decent tank or healer which destiny clearly doesn't have either classes. In wow skills = macro all your spells to one button And just slamming your face on the key board while staying out of the fire. That is wow raiding. Wow pvp on the other hand took skills taking in to account the Rock Paper Scissors
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4 RepliesEdited by Jaccub: 8/2/2014 3:15:26 AMI greatly enjoyed the looking for group feature for 10 or 25-man WoW raids. It got me started when I played casually. Eventually I started doing some raids with my clan, which was intense, and stressful. However, meeting new people in LFG was more fun. Blizzard did it right. Bungie is discriminatory and taking away the raid experience from a good group of casual players that will join us in destiny. P.S. Leading a group of PUGs, or participating in PUGs is very challenging and rewarding. It's a great medium to meet new friends and an opportunity to lead/teach. They don't know the fights? Well that's ok, the veterans can teach them. Bungie should stop being such a control freak and let us play the game the way we want to play it. Give us match making and let us choose whether we use it or not!
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3 RepliesI hated LFG and LFR with end-game content in WoW. Why? Because... I'm not very good. I play the story and quests, and just dip into dungeons and raids every now and then. And due to this, I don't really know the fights and stuff. And the WoW community is, often, horrible. I can't even count the number of times I've been kicked from a group simply for saying I hadn't done it before. People expect everybody to know exactly what to do, and that really blows. So when you have to find a party yourself, everybody knows how people stand. And I'm looking forward to that process of learning, without people being douches just because someone is new.
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Yep, most of the people (if not all) complaining don't understand what raids actually are, and what they entail.
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I AGREE 100% READ BEFORE YOU POST SOMETHING ABOUT MATCH MAKING FOR RAIDING[quote]We, in the WoW community, had the same discussion about raiding a few years ago when Blizzard went from Destiny's current model of raiding (find your own group) to LFG (which is basically MatchMaking). I'll sum up what happened and try to be objective and un-biased in an attempt to explain what most of you might be missing in this argument. The complaint back then was that more time was spent looking for a raid group than actual raiding. To be fair, a part of that was because the raid group was up to 40 players in the beginning, now it's 25. After a few years, Blizzard eventually introduced LFG (which, like I said, is just like MatchMaking). The initial result was what we expected, faster setup times pre-raid... but that had an undesirable effect that a big portion of the community did not anticipate. You see, raids used to be a HUGE deal. They took hours and hours to setup, and even longer to progress. It was a grueling trial of not only skill, but leadership. You could have the talent and gear necessary in your group to complete the raid, but without some level headed leaders directing the group you would be destined to fail. Finishing that hours/days/weeks long raid? That was the ultimate feeling. Finally, after all that time spent forming a group, training a group, making all those friends and enemies after nights of failure... you down that last boss. Nothing beats that feeling in gaming, nothing. Now? The raids feel watered down. You log on, click that "find a group" button. Wait 10 minutes. Teleport to the raid, no words are spoken, just throwing 25 random players at a raid that most of the group has done 100 times already. No friends, no enemies. Just a sea of nameless, empty players grinding away at this now trivial Raid. Failure no longer means waiting a day to regroup because half the team had to go to sleep. Failure now means waiting another 10 minutes for another tank to queue up for the raid. What used to feel massive and utterly rewarding has now become a chore. A chore that you must perform over and over again until you can find no enjoyment short of getting that occasional gear upgrade. Blizzard addressed this by lowering the difficulty of "LFG" raids, and made "Normal" and "Heroic" modes that you HAD to group up for. But still, the damage has been done. You never enter a raid with your friends anymore. LFG has become mandatory to gear properly for the "Normal" and "Heroic" modes, but by then you've done these fights dozens of times. There's no thrill of exploring, no thrill of learning the fights and the map. Just a different type of grind that has already lost its appeal days/weeks before you even needed to find a real group to do it with. Look, I know I said was going to try to remain unbiased, but the truth is MatchMaking ruins raiding. Raiding SHOULD NOT be something you do easily. Raiding is a test of your skill against PvE as much as it is a test of your communication skills. But when you allow for a "fast track" method to access the raids, you turn it into a chore that you simply throw yourself at until you arbitrarily find a group that has the DPS/HP numbers on their side. If you're arguing FOR MatchMaking in raids, what you're asking Bungie to do is water down the whole raid experience. Yeah, you'll get to do raiding more often... and that sounds appealing. But I promise, you don't know what the long term damage will be. Please consider this before you make another "PETITION FOR BUNGIE TO ADD MATCHMAKING TO RAIDS". Thank you for reading.[/quote]
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Hey I made a video talking about this topic check it out if you want to I would appreciate it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwdAumH7vT8&list=UUyLcBT8uarT5Bs79kQ8xsOQ
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4 RepliesThe worst part about all of this complaining is that NONE of us have even tried the raid content, so at this point it is only an assumption that it will be too hard to find a group to play with. Let's try the game first before we start asking for things to change that we aren't even sure are going to be a problem. I trust Bungie as competent game developers and I would like to play the game they intended it to be played myself. If after a while we find, and I'm sure Bungie will notice, that's it's too hard for most people to get into raids than something can be done. How is it that you're so sure that by the time you reach level 25 you won't have anyone else to play with. We don't even know if it will be hard to get a clan together. Also with the mobile app you can setup a raid meet from work. I'm sure everyone that complains that they work has used Facebook or send personal texts at work, it's no different from setting up a party, or a plan to meet friends at a bar after work. TL;DR Lets not complain about something until we know that it's a problem.
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I love you man! This is exactly why we shouldn't ask for a Matchmaking system. As a Raider myself, I can't imagine something greater in multiplayer gaming, than gearing up, searching for that last team member, get in endless discussions with a guy you'll never want to play with again even though he has some skills, digging through the quitters that just can't follow orders, meeting new friends that will become an asset in future raids, hearing the a voice in your headset that guides you through hordes of enemies and storms of bosses that will eventually lead you to victory and eternal glory. Trust him folks, it's better to look for Raid parties on B.net than matchmake it. Get to know them, know who you don't like, make friends, join a clan that suits your needs. Socialize. Before experiencing the content yourself don't ask them to change it. Go with the flow. Stay sharp. Hawk.
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1 ReplyIm fine with no auto matchmaking, as I dont want a random with no mic, ditching us in the middle, with no remorse, and us getting kicked back out of the raid with progress loss. A known friend is a lot less likely to do this. But what they need to do is make it easier to make a fireteam in game. Like as suggested, put a icon over players heads in the towers that lets other players know that someone is looking for a fireteam, or some NPC in the tower that facilitates fireteam creation. Where people can make a good group, discuss tactics, needs, make sure they have a mic, etc, before actually dropping into and starting the raid.
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10 RepliesI honestly think people wont get it until the played a raid in Destiny. If they know how difficult it is and see that just letting 5 randoms come in, maybe drop out or is a lone wolf, who would want that? I'm not saying I played it, but all the press releases are saying its the hardest content bungie has made. I don't k ow about yall, but I definitely would rather beat a raid with 5 of my buds on a night we planned out and out time into trying to crack it open, than going in at any time, just go in, kill, and get out, and never speak to those people again. Think about it, after hours of trying, and you finally kill the final boss and get the sweet loot, wouldn't you rather be on the mic with your friends and cheer and celebrate and text them about it the next day saying how awesome the team work was? Idk about you guys, but I feel like that would be a better experience personally
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1 ReplyAll I know is when raiding used to be hard in WoW, I took the time to make sure I found a guild that knew what they were doing so we could actually progress. When LFR hit, raiding was so dull and boring that I never bothered and ultimately quit the game (Since PvP was being dominated by PvE gear and I would not PvE anymore). If Destiny raids are as tough as advertised, I sure as shit am not going to constantly jump into random groups with random people and expect good results. Everyone is so ADD and wants shit now now now now now, it is not hard to take a few minutes to reach out and find people that are good and can actually progress through content, not join a random group and get no where all day erry day. Relax, make friends your skill level, and enjoy the game. All the ADD WoW kids wanting all the loot as soon as it is available are a huge reason why that game is diminishing. Leave that crap to a mindless game such as WoW. Let Destiny be Destiny.
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22 RepliesStarting out with "kiddies" is detrimental to the conversation, and instantly hostile and insulting. Age plays no part in the discussion and only aggravates the situation. It's confrontational and unnecessary. Do I agree? Yes. And the rest of my post has no bearings on any one in particular, but my general feeling- Raids should have no matchmaking. I also come from WoW, during its heights with 40-man raid teams. This would have been impossible with LFR systems. Do random pick up groups allow more people the ability to experience content? Yes, it does. But it does so at the expense of that content and gear, while removing the social necessity and lifeblood of Clans and actual interactions. Raids are not for loners and egotistical maniacs, especially in Destiny, where a six man fireteam is far more personable and tight than the wildest of Warcraft days. Raiding is an event, not a gametype when you're bored. They take planning, teams, and communication. Which the lot that want matchmaking don't have. Every request I see for matchmaking is followed by the WORST reasons. Just completely absurd- "I don't want a mic." "I don't want to work with people." "I don't want to schedule." "I don't want to play with my clan." None of those are valid reasons for matchmaking, and frankly, are terrible qualities to have in a core cooperative experience. That is not how Raids are meant to be played. Listen, you're still getting far more content in Destiny than with Bungie's last Halo game; Destiny is huge, even without Raids. You don't have to play them. But if you want to, then find a solid Clan, and invest. Because Raids are investments.
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5 RepliesI hope it is optional. Like they added a duty finder to ff14.
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Very well explained post. I've never raided or anything like that before, so it was great l hear the insight from someone who had. The closest I've come to the experience you described is the vidmaster achievements from Halo 3 and Reach. It was tough getting a few friends together for the whole sessions (and an unexpected quitting towards the end of one of them didn't help) but when we actually made it, the feeling of achievement was great. I hope to experience something like that again with Destiny, and I certainly see how matching with randoms with no mics would water it down significantly.
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....matchmaking sounds good to me! You literally just complained about not having to wait a day because someone went to sleep...
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20 RepliesI barely have any time to play games these days, I definitely don't have the time to spend organising to play games. Not only that, I often play at odd hours (late at night etc) as well. Having both private and MM fuelled options for raids solves my problems, ya dig?
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2 RepliesI agree with both sides of the argument... Why not have 2 options? A quick MM feature for those that don't have time during the week...and then have just the normal open world find some people and go raid feature? Win win for everyone
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3 RepliesActually it's mostly the adults complaining about the lack of matchmaking. It's regular people who have lives outside of games who can't spend days preparing or have 5 people they know playing the game. It's the same people whose social life is not online. Nothing prevents people who want to have a guild and always play with the same people and create their own line of progression from doing so, especially since the raids are 6man. However the current set-up prevents other good but busy players from seeing the best the game has to offer. It always comes down to the same thing, one group of player who wants something one way that prevents other players from enjoying the game even though the other way would not affect them. A good example, I want to play the game with my wife and we both work. If the 2 of us along with 4 other people who can't dedicate more them to preparing a raid then actually playing it accept the risk of random groups and do not care with socializing online, it doesn't harm you. However this way it harms us. You have lots of online friends with free time on their hands or don't mind going through forums to make groups, no problem. There is no reason to penalize others who don't. This is a lazy way of making games that tells people it's ok to go outside the game to be able to play it. And because of all the kids with time on their hands that tell me it's good this way on forums, the vas majority of players who just play games and don't live in them get penalized. People going on forums for groups are the minority.
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Wow. I think you have a convert.
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5 RepliesEdited by Z3N-me: 8/1/2014 10:33:45 AM6 is very different to 25 or even 10. I got out of wow a couple of years ago, so i don't know what it is like now, but I believe their reasoning was that a very small % of people were taking part in end game content, so they implemented matchmaking to counter act that. So I kind of understand why it was used. I don't have a dog in this race, I will be raiding with my clan, but I will say that wow is not a fps, so raiding is an unknown quantity. The bigger issue will be people not using headsets.
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3 RepliesPeople now a days are loosing the ability to adapt to survive in a random unpredictible environment with random players. Is like now a days all hard core tryhard players want to be able to predic every move they make in a game, insted of showing true skill by adapting to a random enviment. Later they all want to be able to pick what opstacles should the game have so that their ideal team can overcome them. Lol
