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Destiny

Discuss all things Destiny.
7/31/2014 3:12:22 PM
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All you kiddies that think MatchMaking wouldn't hurt Raiding, just ask a veteran WoW player.

We, in the WoW community, had the same discussion about raiding a few years ago when Blizzard went from Destiny's current model of raiding (find your own group) to LFG (which is basically MatchMaking). I'll sum up what happened and try to be objective and un-biased in an attempt to explain what most of you might be missing in this argument. The complaint back then was that more time was spent looking for a raid group than actual raiding. To be fair, a part of that was because the raid group was up to 40 players in the beginning, now it's 25. After a few years, Blizzard eventually introduced LFG (which, like I said, is just like MatchMaking). The initial result was what we expected, faster setup times pre-raid... but that had an undesirable effect that a big portion of the community did not anticipate. You see, raids used to be a HUGE deal. They took hours and hours to setup, and even longer to progress. It was a grueling trial of not only skill, but leadership. You could have the talent and gear necessary in your group to complete the raid, but without some level headed leaders directing the group you would be destined to fail. Finishing that hours/days/weeks long raid? That was the ultimate feeling. Finally, after all that time spent forming a group, training a group, making all those friends and enemies after nights of failure... you down that last boss. Nothing beats that feeling in gaming, nothing. Now? The raids feel watered down. You log on, click that "find a group" button. Wait 10 minutes. Teleport to the raid, no words are spoken, just throwing 25 random players at a raid that most of the group has done 100 times already. No friends, no enemies. Just a sea of nameless, empty players grinding away at this now trivial Raid. Failure no longer means waiting a day to regroup because half the team had to go to sleep. Failure now means waiting another 10 minutes for another tank to queue up for the raid. What used to feel massive and utterly rewarding has now become a chore. A chore that you must perform over and over again until you can find no enjoyment short of getting that occasional gear upgrade. Blizzard addressed this by lowering the difficulty of "LFG" raids, and made "Normal" and "Heroic" modes that you HAD to group up for. But still, the damage has been done. You never enter a raid with your friends anymore. LFG has become mandatory to gear properly for the "Normal" and "Heroic" modes, but by then you've done these fights dozens of times. There's no thrill of exploring, no thrill of learning the fights and the map. Just a different type of grind that has already lost its appeal days/weeks before you even needed to find a real group to do it with. Look, I know I said was going to try to remain unbiased, but the truth is MatchMaking ruins raiding. Raiding SHOULD NOT be something you do easily. Raiding is a test of your skill against PvE as much as it is a test of your communication skills. But when you allow for a "fast track" method to access the raids, you turn it into a chore that you simply throw yourself at until you arbitrarily find a group that has the DPS/HP numbers on their side. If you're arguing FOR MatchMaking in raids, what you're asking Bungie to do is water down the whole raid experience. Yeah, you'll get to do raiding more often... and that sounds appealing. But I promise, you don't know what the long term damage will be. Please consider this before you make another "PETITION FOR BUNGIE TO ADD MATCHMAKING TO RAIDS". Thank you for reading.
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#Destiny

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  • agree

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  • Great post..u have a good point

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  • What DOOM said... You all may have enough spare time to spend hours finding people to play Destiny with and planning a raid before then spending a few more hours actually doing the raid itself but a lot of people, especially in the higher age ranges, won't do. I work full time so spare time is limited, I only have a handful of people I know IRL (including DOOM himself) who will even have an XB1 let alone Destiny so having the option to do raids via MM is ideal for me. Having it as an option also means that those people who want to go through the rigmarole of finding and prepping a group can do that without ever having to go near the MM option.

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    • Back in vanilla WoW raids were more about gathering with your guild to strategize and then burst into the fray against epic monsters/opponents. I still miss vanilla wow with its no quest locators and lvl 60 cap, made the game harder yes but does that mean it made it any less fun? Ie: Dark Souls 1-2.

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      • However, Wow had trade chat. You could speak (basically) to the whole realm, friends or not, and page them to join in. Even ask for their gear score? That came about naturally due to necessity. Im cool with no matchmaking, I agree with the points above. I even have some points of my own to defend OP's post. Though I think something could help. Im not sure what though.

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        • Thank you for posting. Vanilla WoW raiding was the pinnacle of challenging game play. Leadership skill was the recipe for success in my experience as you point out. We've moved away from challenging game play (PVP aside) in the last decade. PVE should always present challenging content that takes brain power and time to master. The pace of games in general need to slow down in my opinion, and as a result experiences can once again be had albeit good or bad. I can remember games to this day that I played in the 80's thru the mid 90's, the experiences I had playing them and then on to beating them we're very rewarding. I can honestly say that in the last ten years or so those experiences have been few and far between. I have a lot of hope for Destiny, Its conscious decision making by Bungie on issues like no matchmaking for raids that's keeping my hope alive and well.

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        • i love how people keep referencing the biggest noob MMO in history....lol. The game was ok for a saturday morning cartoon mmo back in the day, but its turned into complete crap. Its so easy to play now it literally plays your character for you. No thinking involved.

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            I didn't play wow but I agree with this guy in the sense that raids shouldn't be easy to jump into and finish like every other forking game mode. Can we please just leave one challenge? If you really want that special gear so much then go to the tower then make some friends. It's easy as. Guarantee within your first few hours you eill have friend request from randoms you've shared a moment with. Which brings me into the final point... The raid is about epic gaming and sharing the experience with a group of friends. IMO when you co-ordinate a team with good communication and achieve something as a unit it makes for a more rewarding experience.

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          • I agree. These raids aren't things you're supposed to do with random gathered players. I myself haven't been a hardcore gamer since I quit playing WoW a couple of years ago. I understand that not all of us will be active enough to be in a raiding guild. But it isn't impossible to meet some people online who are prepared to do a raid on occasion.

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            • "Jusk ask a veteran wow player" Hahaha, You sound like you know a lot about WoW. Oh wait this is a destiny forum. First of all buddy, WoW has specific classes built in and is needed for raid. Destiny raids does not. ( watch the endgame vid) Second, it is in third-person. Third, it is more strategy based. All of you WoW "veterans", sorry to break it to u but this is an FPS. Not no magical land where you can cast spells, have tanks, heal, etc, etc. to tell you the truth, borderlands is more similar to Wow than destiny. Gameplay-wise. The only similarity is that destiny has an open world.

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              • Vanilla WOW, You're bringing back some memories. Fun times. I agree Matchmaking did ruin it. It made purples turn into greens cause everyone had them it was no longer hard to get anything in that game. There was no real joy any more. No need for guilds or friends. It was what finally made me quit playing.

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              • i didnt even know raids were in destiny just strikes but im not one of them complaining because idk what a raid in destiny is

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                • Thank you! whats sad is most people are console gamers used to fps and dont even understand the concept of raiding. luckily it looks like bungie is dead set in leaving it the way it is, preserving the challenge of it. i want being able to say i beat the vault of glass to have meaning, i want it to feel like a huge acomplishment like beating dark souls. not the watered down garbage that doesnt even make you feel slightly acomplished.

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                • omfg you guys need to understand WoW is a hardcore type of raid game... they take days to set up.... destiny's raids only take a few hours.. stop bitching "ohhhhhhhhhhh neeeeeeeeerrrrrrrrrr i dont wanna do theses because they take days even though i have incorrect information from somebody who doesnt work for bungie (no offense dysprosium) GNEHRGHUEHGRUBOAUHJRBUHKABJVW"

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                  • Edited by Evilman520: 8/2/2014 11:44:22 AM
                    You fail to realize one thing about this game: It's different from WoW. If you wanna bitch and whine about how WoW does shit, go -blam!-ing play that. Although this game has aspects of an MMO, it is NOT a traditional MMO. This is a shooter, it is worlds different from WoW. Destiny is, in itself, a different breed of gaming than your stupid shit WoW. I've played plenty of MMOs in the past, and I have done countless raids. Yes, Raids typically require teamwork and coordination between tanks, healers, and dps alike. But do you realize that there are NO ROLES IN THIS GAME? As the video interview stated, they aren't going to give the characters/classes roles in this. There is no "I'm Tanking, I'm DPSing" shit on here. You are ALL dpsing and shooting. That said, there will, of course, be a bit of teamwork required to kill some of the enemies, no doubt. This won't be much of a problem for a game like Destiny, where 80% of the people who will even do the raids will be smart enough at that point to know which enemies are the most threatening, know the strengths and weaknesses of certain enemies, learn their damage type, which type they are weakest to, and, in the end, learn the order of execution. Within the first day of playing the Beta alone, I already knew that 1) Void was anti-armor, which means it is effective on any target with a yellow health bar. 2) Arc is anti-shield, which is useful for Captains, Wizards, Guardians in Crucible, and anything with strong shields 3) Fire is anti-health, useful for burning down weaker enemies such as the Thralls or Fallen Dregs/Vandals (quite literally). 4) After only 3 encounters with Knights, I realized that they activate their shields once their health drops below 70%, and will enrage, turn purple, and try to charge you for melee attacks when their health drops to 15%. My FIRST Captain encounter helped me realize that their Blink sits on a 3-second cooldown. Put simply, it is incredibly easy to study these enemies, and to learn their strengths and weaknesses. By doing that, you can make short work of most enemies in this game, so long as you don't get reckless and take the fights steadily and calmly. Granted, you may need someone to be a "medic" and devote most of their attention to reviving fallen allies, but other than that, I can almost guarantee that, with a game like this, raids will simply be a much much tougher turkey shoot. I honestly had expected more from Devil's Lair during the Beta, and found out quite quickly that it was 80% a glorified shootfest. It still had its good moments, given that I was constantly facing overwhelming odds and being reminded that I'm not unstoppable -that I can't be reckless on this game, otherwise enemies will find my Hunter easy prey. What Bungie is doing, with adding raids into a shooter like this, is something that is very rare and different than anything you'll ever see anywhere else. These raids will be a whole different breed compared to your crappy WoW raids. These enemies wont just stand in place and smack/spellcast at you, they're smart. They will move about, take cover, ambush, focus fire, knock back, and swarm anybody who attempts to take them "WoW style" Do not even try to compare these raids to WoW. This is a completely different breed of game, with a completely different breed of raiding.

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                  • 0
                    I think the confusing part here is the use of the word "raid" that has been used. The word "raid" in regards to online gaming has always been linked with party based content that requires a higher level of skill, commitment and communication than the normal content. It's the same as if they had announced "capture the flag". You would immediately assume it was PvP where you had to grab a flag and return it to your base and no matter how many people said that "this is destiny, it won't be like that" they will not change your mind because you "know" what capture the flag is. The same is being done here. The assumptions aren't necessarily wrong but if destiny "raids" aren't comparable in any way to MMO "raids" then they should really of used a different term to describe them.

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                    • Bungie says it take their internal team who are geared and know the content six hours to complete it. They invited a large and popular clan from the alpha to try it. They gave them gear and levels and the clan spent 16hours playing and still didnt beat it.

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                      • I agree with OP... However... Us players need more social tools in game to help meet other people. Form in-game clans/guilds... The option to look for other players to fill your raid team in real time. Don't add an automatic matchmaking system where random people are thrown together. Allow the players to ask other players and choose whom to invite in-game in real time.

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                      • I think the majority of people here will just never understand and all they want is instant gratification... (Played WoW)

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                        • This should forever stay at the top of the forums for everyone to read.

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                        • I have 2 more friends that play games with me, one of them didnt get into the beta, so me and my other friend wanted to do the devil strike. We went in and found someone with the match making, we didnt even get to the devil walker... A few trys later we decided a different approch. We went to the tower and looked for a player via voice chat. And in the end, by sheer luck we found a guy that talk our native language. Then we went in there and tried again. It was awsome. The way you interact with someone else and plan your moves clearly before the battle is something amazing. I know raids are bigger and all that. But if it made a difference to strikes, it will make a huge impact on raids. So im on the author side on this one. Unless they can perfect a formula to include matchmaking without ruinnig the feeling of greatness to raids. Dont include it at all.

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                          • <People say Destiny isn't a MMO and shouldn't be compared to one.> <Then compares Destiny to the biggest MMO in history when it's convenient for their argument.> [spoiler]whywhywhywhywhy[/spoiler]

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                            • I'm sick of hearing this. Here less do this take raids out all together till you finish the storyline, then have raids comes out in a dlc. I get stuck with random players all the time in world of tanks. It boils down to this. Do they know their respective tank. What it's roll is. No one talks in that game (360 version) but holy crap I've been in games full of "randoms" an we steam roll the other team. Never saying a word till the end of the match. Is it really that hard to send the other 5 ppl a msg saying hay I'm "x" what are you guys an form a game plan. Adapt, improvise, overcome! Whichever way they go with mm, no mm, weather your a diehard, an elitist, casual whatever. If you really want that gear..... you'll find a way to get it no matter what they decided to do. Okay off my soap box now.

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                              • well its not like a mm would stop you from forming a group with the people you know, right? personally i cant care less for this thing, i gonna find me a group - with or without matchmaking. but the crying and wow comparison is strong in this one. like someone already said, this is not wow and the difference between 25 and 6 is huge. not to mention that its only a shooter - if you ever played firefight in reach and survived longer than an hour, im pretty sure you can do a raid in destiny. if you match with randomers ofc someone could be a noob, but in the end its a shooter, and shooters were arround for many years, they dont change that much. im pretty confident that even 75% of the randomers are well capable of finishing a raid succesfully, since by then they are lv 20 and got their equip. if they wouldnt like our would just be bad at the game they would already stopped playing it.

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                              • I like the system the way it is, and that is my conclusion after much thought. Playing the lone Hunter as an integral part of the Vanguards is appealing to me. If I had to wait for weeks to find the right combination of friends with the right skills and the right time for all to be together for the completion of a raid I would lose interest in game progression quickly. Just watching the many videos posted regarding WoW and CoD, and now the ones being produced on Destiny, leaves me with a touch of vertigo and utter amazement that anyone could even argue for the idea of leadership and organization. Organization must be limited to discussion about go first to this corner and wipe these out then go to that corner and wipe those out then we all meet here to complete the task. The enemy spawns in various locations and that is the thrill of the battle, overcoming the unpredictability and danger. There is no reason a group of perfect strangers can not enter a conflict and come out victorious so long as each has loyalty to the group as a whole and understands his own abilities and limitations. While I won't complain to a matched group of Vanguards about their fighting style, I sincerely hope no complaints come to me because I move more cautiously and within the limits of abilities.

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                                • What ever. Stop crying

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