{{
`${userDetail.user.displayName}${userDetail.user.cachedBungieGlobalDisplayNameCode ? `#${standardizeBungieGlobalCode(userDetail.user.cachedBungieGlobalDisplayNameCode)}` : ""}`}}
{{getUserClans()}}
7/31/2014 3:12:22 PM
382
All you kiddies that think MatchMaking wouldn't hurt Raiding, just ask a veteran WoW player.
We, in the WoW community, had the same discussion about raiding a few years ago when Blizzard went from Destiny's current model of raiding (find your own group) to LFG (which is basically MatchMaking).
I'll sum up what happened and try to be objective and un-biased in an attempt to explain what most of you might be missing in this argument.
The complaint back then was that more time was spent looking for a raid group than actual raiding. To be fair, a part of that was because the raid group was up to 40 players in the beginning, now it's 25.
After a few years, Blizzard eventually introduced LFG (which, like I said, is just like MatchMaking).
The initial result was what we expected, faster setup times pre-raid... but that had an undesirable effect that a big portion of the community did not anticipate.
You see, raids used to be a HUGE deal. They took hours and hours to setup, and even longer to progress. It was a grueling trial of not only skill, but leadership. You could have the talent and gear necessary in your group to complete the raid, but without some level headed leaders directing the group you would be destined to fail.
Finishing that hours/days/weeks long raid? That was the ultimate feeling. Finally, after all that time spent forming a group, training a group, making all those friends and enemies after nights of failure... you down that last boss. Nothing beats that feeling in gaming, nothing.
Now? The raids feel watered down. You log on, click that "find a group" button. Wait 10 minutes. Teleport to the raid, no words are spoken, just throwing 25 random players at a raid that most of the group has done 100 times already. No friends, no enemies. Just a sea of nameless, empty players grinding away at this now trivial Raid. Failure no longer means waiting a day to regroup because half the team had to go to sleep. Failure now means waiting another 10 minutes for another tank to queue up for the raid.
What used to feel massive and utterly rewarding has now become a chore. A chore that you must perform over and over again until you can find no enjoyment short of getting that occasional gear upgrade.
Blizzard addressed this by lowering the difficulty of "LFG" raids, and made "Normal" and "Heroic" modes that you HAD to group up for. But still, the damage has been done. You never enter a raid with your friends anymore. LFG has become mandatory to gear properly for the "Normal" and "Heroic" modes, but by then you've done these fights dozens of times. There's no thrill of exploring, no thrill of learning the fights and the map. Just a different type of grind that has already lost its appeal days/weeks before you even needed to find a real group to do it with.
Look, I know I said was going to try to remain unbiased, but the truth is MatchMaking ruins raiding. Raiding SHOULD NOT be something you do easily. Raiding is a test of your skill against PvE as much as it is a test of your communication skills. But when you allow for a "fast track" method to access the raids, you turn it into a chore that you simply throw yourself at until you arbitrarily find a group that has the DPS/HP numbers on their side.
If you're arguing FOR MatchMaking in raids, what you're asking Bungie to do is water down the whole raid experience. Yeah, you'll get to do raiding more often... and that sounds appealing. But I promise, you don't know what the long term damage will be.
Please consider this before you make another "PETITION FOR BUNGIE TO ADD MATCHMAKING TO RAIDS".
Thank you for reading.
English
#Destiny
-
2 RepliesI agree with your view, however the lack of communication in game is what will be the downfall, in wow you could message or general chat, in destiny there are only fireteam invites, which are god awful, and the default psn messaging/party up which also will lead to annoyance.
-
Matchmaking in raids is not a bad thing. If you're in a smart/good enough clan, you won't even need matchmaking. Matchmaking in the raid environment is simply to give those who would normally never see the content the ability to see the content; even if match made raids fail 90% of the time. Yes, I am an Original WoW Player. I went by the name of Mordikaiin and I dev tested WoW, Rift, ESO and a few other games. I usually get closed/dev beta only because I write addons, well use to anyway. I liked WoW much better before all the whiney kids got on and ruined the game causing huge nerfs and raids to be dummied down. I had full t3 from Nax Vanilla before most even got half their t2 set. This was because I was part of an awesome, amazing guild called Exigence on US-Dragonblight Server, and we knew what we were doing. 1st American Guild to clear AQ40 also, which some people still can't do lol. Back to the matchmaking issue in raiding. I see this happening a lot in many games that have been out through the years, so don't be surprised if it doesn't happen here as well. The idea is to cater equally to every player and not just those lucky enough to get into a top clan. As an advocate for equality, I agree with it. As an experienced MMO player, I do not. Matchmaking usually takes the importance of a clan away from the clan. Members get themselves locked into raids, because they didn't want to wait or signup for the clan raid. Me personally I usually kick the clowns who continuously do that. If you're not benefiting the clan then you're dead weight. We don't mind helping and teaching, but to get, you also have to give. Bottom line, matchmaking; if players remember why it is actually there and use it for that purpose only, is harmless. If players ignore their clans or don't even join one because they can get content without one, then so be it. It's them who will suffer in the long run. Clanning up is a must in any MMO. I don't care what any person has claimed. In a PvE Environment no person has become top player on the server without a clan. If they say they have they are lying, they either went solo with a clan or they were in a clan used them and quit. In PvP it is possible to solo to the top though, because you don't have to rely on anyone but yourself.
-
Edited by JayJ9Nine: 8/2/2014 5:12:24 PMThis is the first, earnestly reasonable post I've seen against matchmaking without falling to childish 'SHUT THE F*CK UP YOU WHINE B**CHES, YOU ANTISOCIAL'. You highlight the sentiment and achievement of finishing what is essentially the essence of the end-game. I never played wow but I did play Runescape(which never had any form of LFG for multi-person events besides minigames) and The Old Republic, which has consistently tried to expand the number of raids its had. It had raids and Flashpoints, and eventually flashpoitns had a LFG option. Four people to a group to finish a mission, but then there were the 16 person (or if you wanted hard mode, 32 person) raids. I rarely got to participate in them since the clan I joined was small, tightknit and we enjoyed one another's company, but there were never enough of us on at a time to take a crack at them. Occasionally though a friend of mine outside the clan would state they needed one more person to start a raid and that my gear met the requirements. The few times I participated in these raids were wonderful despite my inexperience and the fact I didn't know the fights, I messed up a few times, and almost killed the entire group once or twice. But they were patient and explained to me the fight the best they could and were quite tolerant, by the time I finished the raid, I loved the experience. Despite getting no really good loot from it, I was proud of myself and happy and wanted to do others. But sadly the LFG option for the raids took a LONG time to set up, and the lack of communication between people made it feel more trial and error. It never occurred to me that limiting the accessibility of the raid, made the final experience feel that much more wonderful when it was finally completed. (And that was just the normal modes raid I did. GOSH, when I did a Nightmare 32 person raid..haha) Considering the fact the final raid for this game only has six person fire teams, I've been convinced that the Match Making should remain off, being its not NEARLY as hard to find people to do it as it would for a sixteen team raid.... Heck if anything I'd like to see at least a 12 person raid involving special use of the team splitting up and simultaneously completing objectives for a truely raid-like experience. Course I've never played Vault of Glass, and from what I've heard its plenty tough. Ehem. So yes! Very very well written my friend, and extra points for showing your point in a 'civilized' manner without resorting to petty namecalling.
-
Finding 5 others to raid makes it too op. Nerf life pls
-
2 Replies[quote]We, in the WoW community, had the same discussion about raiding a few years ago when Blizzard went from Destiny's current model of raiding (find your own group) to LFG (which is basically MatchMaking). I'll sum up what happened and try to be objective and un-biased in an attempt to explain what most of you might be missing in this argument. The complaint back then was that more time was spent looking for a raid group than actual raiding. To be fair, a part of that was because the raid group was up to 40 players in the beginning, now it's 25. After a few years, Blizzard eventually introduced LFG (which, like I said, is just like MatchMaking). The initial result was what we expected, faster setup times pre-raid... but that had an undesirable effect that a big portion of the community did not anticipate. You see, raids used to be a HUGE deal. They took hours and hours to setup, and even longer to progress. It was a grueling trial of not only skill, but leadership. You could have the talent and gear necessary in your group to complete the raid, but without some level headed leaders directing the group you would be destined to fail. Finishing that hours/days/weeks long raid? That was the ultimate feeling. Finally, after all that time spent forming a group, training a group, making all those friends and enemies after nights of failure... you down that last boss. Nothing beats that feeling in gaming, nothing. Now? The raids feel watered down. You log on, click that "find a group" button. Wait 10 minutes. Teleport to the raid, no words are spoken, just throwing 25 random players at a raid that most of the group has done 100 times already. No friends, no enemies. Just a sea of nameless, empty players grinding away at this now trivial Raid. Failure no longer means waiting a day to regroup because half the team had to go to sleep. Failure now means waiting another 10 minutes for another tank to queue up for the raid. What used to feel massive and utterly rewarding has now become a chore. A chore that you must perform over and over again until you can find no enjoyment short of getting that occasional gear upgrade. Blizzard addressed this by lowering the difficulty of "LFG" raids, and made "Normal" and "Heroic" modes that you HAD to group up for. But still, the damage has been done. You never enter a raid with your friends anymore. LFG has become mandatory to gear properly for the "Normal" and "Heroic" modes, but by then you've done these fights dozens of times. There's no thrill of exploring, no thrill of learning the fights and the map. Just a different type of grind that has already lost its appeal days/weeks before you even needed to find a real group to do it with. Look, I know I said was going to try to remain unbiased, but the truth is MatchMaking ruins raiding. Raiding SHOULD NOT be something you do easily. Raiding is a test of your skill against PvE as much as it is a test of your communication skills. But when you allow for a "fast track" method to access the raids, you turn it into a chore that you simply throw yourself at until you arbitrarily find a group that has the DPS/HP numbers on their side. If you're arguing FOR MatchMaking in raids, what you're asking Bungie to do is water down the whole raid experience. Yeah, you'll get to do raiding more often... and that sounds appealing. But I promise, you don't know what the long term damage will be. Please consider this before you make another "PETITION FOR BUNGIE TO ADD MATCHMAKING TO RAIDS". Thank you for reading.[/quote]You make a lot of sense. Personally, I have never played a raid in any game before, and now I feel a little excited. Bungie shouldn't provide matchmaking for raids; it ruins the core experience. If you want matchmaking, go into a strike. We need true tests of skill and teamwork in a game like this, and the Raids will make it happen. Thank you for the explanation. You could make a great leader. Good day, Guardian! And keep up the good work!
-
as a old gamer myself i never thought i would say i agree with a wow player lol(just a freindly jab mate) but hands down i have no problem with a lfr match making system latter on for older content but current content should be left for those who push themself to be the best they can be i mean if you find good players in strkes or pvp or out in the world add them make friends socialize thats what games are about is meeting new people and enjoying the content together cause ill tell you from the old days of dnd eq and wow its nowhere near as bad to meet people as it used to be and i congradulate bungie for bringing the old lost style of gaming back
-
2 RepliesThe main problem I found with WoW's LFR system was; It enhanced the already abundant elitism present in WoW. When I got back on WoW after a year or so of not playing it took me literally 2 weeks to max out a couple of characters and then another day or so to gear them for raids form The Timeless Isle. I then spent all my time in LFR Orgrimmar and had myself pretty well geared in under a month, and yet that still wasn't good enough for most guilds. They wanted a higher gear score than I could possibly achieve and in the end you felt left out because they thought you weren't good enough because of the "EZ-Mode Gear" that anyone could get, so despite over 10 years of playing MMO's and years of running guilds, raids, and tackling top-tier content in top-tier guilds, you were classed as just another scrub with the rest of the community outside their hallowed guild. Which sucked. So while I do understand and appreciate Bungie's reasons for not allowing matchmaking for Raid Level Content in Destiny, I also can't help but feel it's going to segregate the community somewhat in the long run, and while a lot of Hardcore Players will love having a wider gap between themselves and casual gamers, I can't help but feel that it might harm the community in the end when people who want to raid aren't able too. So perhaps allowing an LFR feature for older Raids like some people have suggested? But keeping current content and Raid Expansions solely for the Hardcore, Clan-based players.
-
2 Repliesexcept its six people not 25 not 40.....and they should all have headsets at least on next gen......and one would assume that because it is only 6 people, one person can alleviate the pressure on the whole group rather easily
-
Also if people argue blabla but 40 is not 6. Try Cod Zombie! You need a team of 4, so 3 randoms. And the staggering amount of unfriendly, uncooperative, dropping out games compared to good ones is...disastrous.
-
You also forget that the amount of players that play for that experience are in the minority. Most people now just want the gear and the loot and to be on top. They also just want to progress. I played Final Fantasy ARR and they have matchmaking. My personal opinion is that playing with a bunch of randoms doesnt diminish the experience. If you fight that boss and keep failing at it but right at the end you manage to pull thru and beat that boss you get so excited. However thats my experience the first time thru after i go back to that raid its not that exciting. And if this game is going to be about getting your loot and grinding raids, Why have to wait 1 day out of the week when all your friends are on? Why have to sit there for three hours to find a group? You are going to be replaying these raids a lot for gear. And its just going to be tedious and boring uf you have to go thru all the waiting just to play a raid youve done countless times before. I agree that bungie wants an experience for the gamers but they have to look at the majority here. Its for replayability purposes. And its to keep people coming back to the game, or better yet not even dropping the game in the first place
-
5 RepliesEdited by Liquidation iLy: 8/2/2014 5:33:16 PMWell the thing is, I don't really like making friends. I actually got the guts to add someone on PSN during the beta. You know what happened the last two days? He got off when he said would get on. He even mentioned playing other games once the beta is over. He hasn't gotten on since I'm writing this, maybe tomorrow, idk when he will. The rest of my irl friends make fun of Destiny for some god **** reason! And I get pissed when joining their party and they make fun of me for playing it. Third, I'm a 16 year old, and you know how it goes in this community >_> I do a lot of the times just get made fun of for my voice. It doesn't happen all the time. I know I sound freaking boring. I mean honestly their is so many barriers for me to cross. [b]I mean people don't understand that age is just a number[/b] I guess, or that people have different voices, or something. >_< All I know is that since playing video games, I got made fun back when I played CoD MW3. You know the usual term, squeaker... Really I stopped trying to use a mic because people did that, and in the process don't communicate with my team. Age is just a number and just because your young and play video games, doesn't automatically make you an a******. Saw someone in one of the forums name 13 year olds as "13 yo ass****" :/ Really?
-
2 RepliesMy biggest problem playing with random people is everybody would be looking out for themselves instead of working as a team, helping to make the group better. When I played WoW my whole guild was made of people I met and knew in person. It was some of the most memorable and fun gaming experiences I ever had, even if we failed. Oh man, the good old days. I get the urge to start my WoW account back up and have to remind myself that those times are dead and gone.
-
4 RepliesI completely and wholeheartedly understand what you are saying but this isn't wow. I don't see these raids being anything more than high level enemies and bosses. The ai will be as. Shitty as before and things will just have more health. I don't see them being this "day or weeklong task" after the first one or two times I have done it and know what's coming. Also if matchmaking is added no one is forcing you or any of your friends to do it...you could still get some friends or go recruit some guys and take the raid how you want, hell thts what I would love to bc I really enjoy all the strategic elements but I already know I will have a hard time getting 5 friends to co operate for extended times while we are all on busy schedules. Lastly just because in wow when matchmaking was implemented the difficulty dropped that doesn't need to happen here. Make it available so everyone can have a stab at it but reward the teams with the well thought out and carefully planned attack. I'm aware it probably won't be there but I think it would be a lot of fun to just be able to jump in and do some raids-maybe with randoms I'll never complete one but I'll get a taste for when I can hip on with my friends and then we won't waste our time predicting what to expect
-
1 ReplyI'm a ex WoW player and I agree with this totaly. There is only one thing I have to mention and that is atleast in WoW you needed to be fully in the game and spend tons of time and that is ok, but some people DONT have that much time, they got jobs,real chores and school to mention a few and they were paying the same monthly fee than you and me. Those people had to had a way to experience the same fun as all without having to play 16 hours a day. With destiny is different due to the fact that raid is 6 man only, and won't be near as challenging as some vanilla WoW, beside we don't even know how raids work, for example: - are the raid gonna have a reset time? Or just work like a strike? - can you leave and come back to it at some other time before it resets like in wow? - are boss fights gonna be really hard like some were in WOW which took hours of farming ans gearing until you could down that boss or just somethibg more tactical like taking down sepiks prime and devil walker? - loot is garanteed or its just random and you have to do raid many times until you get that godly piece?
-
3 RepliesYou make a good argument. So what your saying is that the true reward for completing a raid is not the loot you earn, but a real sense of accomplishment and building camaraderie with others. I've heard something similar to this before. "The reward of an adventure is not at the end of the journey, it is the journey itself." I'm sure finding people to do a raid is going to be challenging, but that seems to be the beginning of something special that hasn't been done in a FPS before. Now I'm getting excited. I don't like things to be handed to me anyway... BRING IT ON!
-
1 ReplyHonestly matchmaking for a 5 man raid isn't necessarily needed because im sure by playing the alpha and beta people have made friends and their friends have friends. So putting that group together should be easy, but there are those solo players and maybe all ur friends are offline where it could come in handy
-
I totally agree with you man coming from another ...well what i like to tell myself longtime raider But on the other hand there IS that choice we raid with a guild get better gear....LFR you can queue mm style and get lesser gear but it allows the people that don't want to do end game progression the chance to see this content And tbh my biggest problem with LFR was people came and EXPECTED to be carried by better geared people. I hope IF they do add a mm system there should be some sort of gear ilevel or requirement so its not going to be a instant fail Maybe if they added some sort of attunement like they did in wildstar to make sure people were prepared? (just not as insane as the wildstar attunement tho lol) either way i will be doing raids with a bunch of friends anyhow
-
I too played wow in the past and I agree with most of what you said. Raids in WoW has certainly become elitist, I don't know if you remember the addon called "Gearscore" it ruined raids and many heroics. Got a low GS for a particular raid? you ain't welcome, even if you queued for LFG, the 1st thing they ask is your GS. Now am digressing.. But the point is bungie SHOULD NOT implement matchmaking at all. A raid should be treated like a planned military invasion, not group together a bunch a randoms with x level gear and hope for the best. It doesn't matter if you got all the best gear at level 20 if your attitude is level 1. I just hope bungie doesn't cave in to pressure from those who can't seem to understand what a raid is about.
-
1 ReplyElitist WoW veterans practise for upcoming Destiny raids. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRQBuXuGPXI
-
1 ReplyPersonally, i really doubt bungie will ever take the concerns and signed petitions of 14 year olds seriously, they would certainly never do it to change something they have clearly thought out. also: TL:DR
-
1 ReplyLike the vidmaster: annual, half the fun was finding people on the forum that wanted to do it, if you failed, you wait again until the next day. When you finnaly did it, it was epic. I think their decisions with raids were based alot off of that experience. I hope they don't add matchmaking, leave that for strikes.
-
I GOT SOMETHING TO SAY! [spoiler]Meh...[/spoiler]
-
3 RepliesWow is a terrible game. Thats why its named "wow".
-
I agree. Ex old wow player.
-
Good point
-
agree
