After reading this the author seems pretty clueless. The covenant waged the war because Humans where identified as Reclaimers which would destroy the Covenant if it was found out and so the 3 prophets declared war and went on a genocidal campaign. Even the Covenant races questioned why the Humans couldn't join them, noting their weapons were.....limited but did what they did well and that they shown great courage and skill despite facing extinction. I wonder how much lore this guy actually knows, he quoted a couple of books and games but that's it.

I fail to see in any regard how the OP not referencing the true reason behind the Covenant War somehow invalidates his analysis.

Because I gave a couple of examples in my short response which makes much of it pointless. Humans where the most effective force on the ground, the Covenant knew this and when they where actually failing to the battle of Reach they retreated their forces to their ships and glassed the planet instead. That's how much of war went, so this "No tactics" nonsense is just that......nonsense. Strategy I can agree with to some extent, though he doesn't seem to acknowledge the impact of a war with many different aliens and being on the back foot every step of the way would have on decision making. The wrong move could mean extinction, as each planet burned they had to allocate resources else where and try and get manufacturing back up meaning they had no time or ability to continue to mass produce ships. Instead he pretty much just says "The Covenant are fighting something else plus us, the Humans are stupid tactically and strategically". Not much on an analysis.

He is talking about the original novel trilogy. Contact Harvest introduced the Reclaimer bit and was used to give backstory to Halo wars. It is TFoR-First Strike where he is basing majority of the thread from. Everything you are talking about is contact Harvest which was written years later.

He mentioned the Halo Reach game.......... Contact harvest was out before Halo Reach, so there goes your theory.

I don't know why you are trying to argue what he is talking about. This was already discussed on the main site without issue. You do not know why the Covenant are attacking humanity until contact Harvest. Nothing prior stated why. Conversations of the universe has excerpts with The elites talking about the humans. That was prior to the fall of reach,Late in the war. He even brought up Eric Nylund who wrote the original novels which most of this is from.

[quote]During the Battle of Reach depicted in the game, rather than hitting Reach via a direct assault, they infiltrated the surface and transported their SuperCarrier beneath Reach’s orbital defenses, .[/quote] You are claiming one thing yet he uses a video game to back up his train of thought so clearly he has access to the books and lore prior to the game which includes contact harvest.....a book he also references here [quote]By comparison the UNSC of 2525 was a backwater isolated power with absolutely no experience in dealing with alien cultures or external military threats prior to first contact at Harvest. Admiral Preston Cole’s autobiography made clear that up until the outbreak of the Insurgency in the last decade of the 25th century, the human Navy acted primarily as colonial administration force settling disputes between colonies and chasing of the “occasional” pirates. .[/quote] So you can't sit here and tell me something when he clearly has/had access to these mediums if he chose to use them.

This is a rather dumb thing to argue. If you want more context you can ask him yourself at the site or see the original thread.

I was just pointing a hole in his argument.

I still don't understand want point you are trying to make!

The point is you mention several things in your post which contradicted actual events such as "Not knowing why the Covenant attacked Humanity" which if you read the books like you claimed you would have known that so no point putting it in your thread. I was also pointing out to the other guy who claimed you was talking about the 1st 3 games and the books which didn't include Contact harvest that you in fact used up to date and current information to back up your theory. Then you get this [quote]- Tactical From a tactical point of view I would concede that while humanity may not have started off with one, the UNSC did gain at least a partial tactical advantage over the Covenant Empire as the war progressed.[/quote] You said humanity didn't have tactics or a strategy, all you kept saying was "They where desperate, high losses, they won with overwhelming numbers" when in reality (In the universe anyway) they managed to give the covenant costly victories and losses and with very small numbers committed. Granted those where mainly Spartan Operations, as I recall 2 Spartans destroyed a Covenant ship above reach along with the camp below and stole 2 wraiths and blasted their way to CASTLE base to save Halsey. Installation 04 is another notable example of Humans excelling on the ground with their tactics by outclassing the Covenant at every turn and the covenant could not glass them because they where on the Ring. I did say I agree with the war strategy being non-existent I just didn't agree with the tactics side of your argument and how you portrayed Humanity in a very negative light. Then to assume the Covenant was fighting another force besides Humanity before the flood got involved with no facts to back it up, I mean it's pretty much said Humanity and the Covenant are the 2 largest powers in the Orion Arm is ridiculous to say the least. You pretty much ignored Humanity's ground advantage and just went straight for the glassing part of the argument, you seemed to ignore humanity would routinely force the Covenant back to their ships so they could glass the planet.

[quote]The point is you mention several things in your post which contradicted actual events such as "Not knowing why the Covenant attacked Humanity" which if you read the books like you claimed you would have known that so no point putting it in your thread.[/quote] You need to go back and re-read Nylund's work. During his biography of Preston Cole's life Cole theorized that an unknown faction within the Covenant hierarchy was purposely prolonging the war by preventing the Covenant from locating Earth and thus ending the war quickly. Nylund wouldn't have made this statement unless there was some truth to it, and Admiral Cole was probably the best placed human officer to make this judgement. His spent the majority of his career as a Naval officer fighting and was commanding humans forces all the way from the start of the human-covenant war up until his possible death. [quote]Then you get this - Tactical From a tactical point of view I would concede that while humanity may not have started off with one, the UNSC did gain at least a partial tactical advantage over the Covenant Empire as the war progressed. You said humanity didn't have tactics or a strategy, all you kept saying was "They where desperate, high losses, they won with overwhelming numbers" when in reality (In the universe anyway) they managed to give the covenant costly victories and losses and with very small numbers committed. [/quote] No I said humanity had a partial tactical advantage in relation to their innovative tactics but that they relied more heavily on heavy numbers to win battles which you can see from the casualty reports in the aftermath of most battles. Humans almost always lose more ships per engagement. [quote]Granted those where mainly Spartan Operations, as I recall 2 Spartans destroyed a Covenant ship above reach along with the camp below and stole 2 wraiths and blasted their way to CASTLE base to save Halsey. [/quote] Yes and by comparison humanity lost their key production facility at Reach when the Covenant glassed the planet. The UNSC never try to target the Covenant own production facility's so any ships the Covenant loose can be easily replaced. This is the point I was trying to make. [quote]I did say I agree with the war strategy being non-existent I just didn't agree with the tactics side of your argument and how you portrayed Humanity in a very negative light. [/quote] The main point I was trying to make is that the overall strategy employed by both sides is what would ultimately determine the outcome of the war. Humanity may have had better tactics from a battlefield perspective, but the ability to win a battle is meaningless unless you are willing to follow up with a counter offensive to capitalize on your gains. The UNSC can defeat a Covenant fleet in orbit over a human colony, but unless they take the war back into Covenant territory the Covenant will always be free to return with greater numbers because their production facilities and population centres remain out of the warzone. The human colony world on the other hand is and once the UNSC forces are pushed back they loose access to its resources, the Covenant will grind them down by attrition. The UNSC knew how to gain victory, not how to sue it. That's the point I was trying to make. [quote]Then to assume the Covenant was fighting another force besides Humanity before the flood got involved with no facts to back it up, I mean it's pretty much said Humanity and the Covenant are the 2 largest powers in the Orion Arm is ridiculous to say the least. [/quote] Again please go back and read Ghosts of Onyx. Dr Hasley stated that this was a vague possibility for why the Covenant had not crushed humanity within a matter of months. Admiral Cole also theorized that the whole war hinged on something humanity did not understand. As I said before these two (Hasley in particular) have spent their entire careers studying the Covenant in one way or another, so they are probably the most credible humans to make these assumptions. [quote]You pretty much ignored Humanity's ground advantage and just went straight for the glassing part of the argument, you seemed to ignore humanity would routinely force the Covenant back to their ships so they could glass the planet.[/quote] Then please answer me this. Why is the Covenant going to bother engaging human forces on the ground when they can simply glass them from orbit?

First, no UNSC has any reason to assume another power was at work within the covenant, the Prophets disconnected the Forerunner AI in the Forerunner dreadnought when it tried to take off and go to Harvest and other forerunner crystal's pin pointed each human world so I assume Earth was the furthest away and so they worked their way slowly towards it. After all Regret turned up not expecting to arrive at Earth and got his ass kicked. In regards to not glassing the planets, the systems/crystal's used by the Covenant called all humans "reclaimers" and confused the covenant thinking they where forerunner artifacts. This mean they would not glass the planet thinking they would destroy an artifact. (When in fact they where humans......Said in Contact Harvest with the brutes wanting the planet and the humans to leave) I imagine Halsey or Cole knew about the plan to destroy the Unyielding Hyaphiant (sp) which destroyed 500+ ships in 1 blast or watching High Charities fleet attack each other. Considering Halsey though humanity was going to lose while she was on Onyx means she had no idea what was going on out side of the training facility, she had no idea what Grey Team was doing or if they still lived. Perhaps the Covenant didn't feel the need to deploy all their forces because they did a lot of scouting work which is why Reach ended up with a massive fleet at the door step because Reach was the heart of the UNSC's war machine. The same was for the fleet that got destroyed ("The elephant" - Some UNSC officer) with the 500 ships was being brought together to target earth expecting a tough fight. Why waste hundreds of warships on small colonies like Harvest?

[quote]no UNSC has any reason to assume another power was at work within the covenant[/quote]Why not? The UNSC knew very little of the inner workings of the Covenant. It's not hard to look at the rate they are able to replace their ships and see how they just bum rush with no tactical superiority. One could easily theorize that someone(s) or something is preventing the Covenant from simply overwhelming humanity within the first decade. As we now know, the answer was dogma. [quote]other forerunner crystal's pin pointed each human world so I assume Earth was the furthest away and so they worked their way slowly towards it.[/quote]This is extremely false. If the Luminaries illuminated all Human worlds, and all Forerunner artifacts, there'd be no need for the Janus Key. The Covenant War wouldn't have lasted 30 years either. The Luminaries only illuminate Forerunner items when they are in relatively close proximity. [quote] the systems/crystal's used by the Covenant called all humans "reclaimers" and confused the covenant thinking they where forerunner artifacts. This mean they would not glass the planet thinking they would destroy an artifact. (When in fact they where humans......Said in Contact Harvest with the brutes wanting the planet and the humans to leave)[/quote]Which was a one time occurrence as the Prophets explained that Humans were defiling those artifacts, giving the Covenant a reason to exterminate us. [quote]I imagine Halsey or Cole knew about the plan to destroy the Unyielding Hyaphiant (sp) which destroyed 500+ ships in 1 blast or watching High Charities fleet attack each other. [/quote]Cole was dead/gone by 2552. Halsey could not have known as she left with Kelly to Onyx before the Unyielding Hierophant. [quote]Considering Halsey though humanity was going to lose while she was on Onyx means she had no idea what was going on out side of the training facility, she had no idea what Grey Team was doing or if they still lived. [/quote]None of us know. [quote]Perhaps the Covenant didn't feel the need to deploy all their forces because they did a lot of scouting work which is why Reach ended up with a massive fleet at the door step because Reach was the heart of the UNSC's war machine. [/quote]Or maybe because the the Forerunner crystal at Sigma Octanus IV pointed to Reach as housing Forerunner artifacts of extreme importance. Considering the strategy employed is to glass planets, the Covenant deployed a Fleet commanded by Zealots in order to retrieve the artifacts of importance before the main fleet arrived. It's why the Covenant took such an interest in Sword Base. The artifact under it contained data that pointed in the direction of Alpha Halo. [quote]The same was for the fleet that got destroyed ("The elephant" - Some UNSC officer)[/quote]You really don't know your lore do you? [i]"Don't look like any 'uneven elephant' to me." -Sgt. Major Avery Johnson[/i] [quote]Why waste hundreds of warships on small colonies like Harvest?[/quote]The Covenant manufacturing power 206 years after the Covenant was formed was capable of producing approximately 2,000 Assault Carriers every year. We can only assume that 3,000 years later, their manufacturing power will have had grown immensely.

I regards to the "You really don't know your lore" it's a bloody long time since I discussed the lore or read up on, I wait after the books come out before going to the wiki. I was going to say Sgt.Johnson did the quote but I wasn't entirely sure so I put a random officer instead, plus I noticed I spelled things wrong or missed words which messed up some of my points. (Typical thing for me) Also who the hell is Dogma?