And killing yourself is against the law, here anyway.

No, gun owners arent more likely to commit suicide, people who already were in that state of mind are more likely to make the decision, and be able to ignore the natural response of self preservation to commit suicide with a gun.

[quote]First, many suicidal acts — one third to four fifths of all suicide attempts, according to studies — are impulsive. Among people who made near-lethal suicide attempts, for example, 24% took less than 5 minutes between the decision to kill themselves and the actual attempt, and 70% took less than 1 hour. Second, many suicidal crises are self-limiting. Such crises are often caused by an immediate stressor, such as the breakup of a romantic relationship, the loss of a job, or a run-in with police. As the acute phase of the crisis passes, so does the urge to attempt suicide. The temporary nature and fleeting sway of many suicidal crises is evident in the fact that more than 90% of people who survive a suicide attempt, including attempts that were expected to be lethal (such as shooting oneself in the head or jumping in front of a train), do not go on to die by suicide. [...] There are at least a dozen U.S. case–control studies in the peer-reviewed literature, all of which have found that a gun in the home is associated with an increased risk of suicide. The increase in risk is large, typically 2 to 10 times that in homes without guns, depending on the sample population (e.g., adolescents vs. older adults) and on the way in which the firearms were stored. The association between guns in the home and the risk of suicide is due entirely to a large increase in the risk of suicide by firearm that is not counterbalanced by a reduced risk of nonfirearm suicide. Moreover, the increased risk of suicide is not explained by increased psychopathologic characteristics, suicidal ideation, or suicide attempts among members of gun-owning households. [...] In our experience, many clinicians who care deeply about preventing suicide are unfamiliar with the evidence linking guns to suicide. Too many seem to believe that anyone who is serious enough about suicide to use a gun would find an equally effective means if a gun were not available. This belief is invalid.[/quote] [url=http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp0805923]The New England Journal of Medicine | Guns and Suicide in the United States[/url]

So, you stand by the stance that an inanimate object causes suicide?

Yes, as it clearly does. Rephrasing it to make it sound ridiculous is just intellectually dishonest on your part.

No, it isnt intellectually dishonest. The fact remains, buying A gun doesnt cause a normally sane happy person suddenly have thoughts of suicide. The truth is that a suicide is more likely to occur with a depressed person if they own a gun. Main reason being that a gun is easy, less time consuming and highly effective compared to asphyxiation, or cutting wrists. Hence why guns have a high rate of suicides linked to them. I will concede that a suicidal person is more likely to kill them selves with a gun if they have it available to them, but im not foolish enough to suggest that a gun causes suicide. I mean really? Suggesting that a gun causes people to be suicidal?

I like this, except for the straw man.

Really? His post came apart like a wet paper bag.

[quote]The fact remains, buying A gun doesnt cause a normally sane happy person suddenly have thoughts of suicide.[/quote] I never said it did (and neither did the article). You're addressing a straw man. [quote]The truth is that a suicide is more likely to occur with a depressed person if they own a gun. Main reason being that a gun is easy, less time consuming and highly effective compared to asphyxiation, or cutting wrists. Hence why guns have a high rate of suicides linked to them.[/quote] Yes. That's what the article said. (Although, if I'm being pedantic, I should also add that the article stated that the increased incidence applied not only to the owner, but to anybody who lives in a household with a gun.) [quote]I will concede that a suicidal person is more likely to kill them selves with a gun if they have it available to them, but im not foolish enough to suggest that a gun causes suicide.[/quote] People kill themselves who would not otherwise do so if there was no firearm in their household. This means that a firearm being in their household is a condition that gives rise to increased incidence of suicide. In other words, it is a cause of suicide. If you're using a definition of cause for which this does not apply, then you either misinterpreted the article or are being dishonest. [quote]I mean really? Suggesting that a gun causes people to be suicidal?[/quote] I didn't suggest that. In fact, the review article (in one of the parts I quoted) openly stated that this was not borne out by the studies ["the increased risk of suicide is not explained by increased [...] suicidal ideation"]. This is what I meant by intellectually dishonesty. Did you actually read the article?

[quote]People kill themselves who would not otherwise do so if there was no firearm in their household. [/quote] there is no possible way you could know that. The article didn't even state that. How can you know this is true?

Are you kidding me? There's clearly a causal link between access to guns and suicide. [i]That's[/i] what the article established.

The article never said that. Yes, there is a causal link between access to guns and suicide. but that might only be because guns are more efficient or because gun owners tend to be more depressed people than those who don't own guns. You can't state such an implication as fact with the data provided by the article.

You don't understand what 'causal' means.

actually I fully understand it's meaning-- I was just lazy with my wording. Here it is, without laziness: "Yes there is a causal link between access to guns and number of suicides."

[quote]Yes, there is a causal link between access to guns and suicide. but that might only be because gun owners tend to be more depressed people than those who don't own guns.[/quote] No, you don't.

I was using that as an example. I don't actually believe that. What I'm saying is that the data could point to multiple conclusions. It just depends what point of view you take.

Your 'example' is not an example of a causal link. The very fact that it's causal means that there are people who have committed suicide who would not have otherwise done so if they did not have access to a gun.

but how do you know that without asking the person? since they are dead (unless they survived), there is no possible way to know that.

[quote]People kill themselves who would not otherwise do so if there was no firearm in their household. This means that a firearm being in their household is a condition that gives rise to increased incidence of suicide. In other words, it is a cause of suicide. If you're using a definition of cause for which this does not apply, then you either misinterpreted the article or are being dishonest.[/quote] Sorry, owning a gun is not a cause of suicide, it is a cause of an increase in suicide perhaps, but depression, mental illness and the like are a cause of suicide. Thats like saying, with the current gun debate, that guns cause violence. [quote] [quote]I mean really? Suggesting that a gun causes people to be suicidal?[/quote] I didn't suggest that. In fact, the review article (in one of the parts I quoted) openly stated that this was not borne out by the studies ["the increased risk of suicide is not explained by increased [...] suicidal ideation"]. This is what I meant by intellectually dishonesty. Did you actually read the article?[/quote] I read what you quoted, but only part since i had to run out. And the reason im assuming you are actually insisting that guns cause suicide, is you replayed to this sub thread, where the person stated. [quote]In other words, gun owners are 50% more likely to kill themselves than they are to kill someone else.[/quote] Falling back to the study. Another one i read detailing this data, or rather subject, talked about the why guns are used more. In other methods of suicide, you have a pretty high chance of living, or making a mistake and living, whereas when using a gun is far more effective in the act of suicide. Just because it is more effective, doesnt mean it is the cause. But with that said, i realize your intent wasnt to suggest that guns cause suicide, but that they are more effective, and that a suicidal person is more likely to be successful in the attempt.

No, my intent was (and is) absolutely to suggest that guns cause suicide, because they do - you just seem to be confused about what the word 'cause' means. Putting a gun in a household increases the risk of a member of that household successfully committing suicide. That means that, for a certain number of people, the gun being in the household caused their suicide. More importantly, removing those guns from a household (or preventing them from being there in the first place) will decrease the risk of a member of that household committing suicide.