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3/24/2013 2:26:32 PM
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Don't underestimate North Korea. They have close relations with both China and Russia and are far more developed than many of you seem to think.
I think the UN, and US specifically, needs to stop bullying them around. The US has nukes. The US doesn't like what North Korea is doing. North Korea doesn't (or didn't) have the ability to defend themselves against the US.
.. and the US wanted it to stay that way forever.
The superpowers of the world all have nuclear capabilities. Them telling other nations they aren't allowed to develop their own nuclear capabilities is just away for them to stay on top, unchallenged by the rest of the world, able to control things atop their golden pedestals. It's blatant hypocrisy that will ultimately be the cause of WWIII.
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Edited by Diplomat: 3/24/2013 4:24:10 PM[quote]Don't underestimate North Korea.[/quote] I'm not, I'm just giving my own personal analysis (which is based upon the analysis' of actual professionals). [quote]They have close relations with both China and Russia[/quote] Yes, you are correct, Russia and North Korea have a fairly close economic relationship with each other. The Russians have sunk considerable capital in both the Trans-Korean and Trans-Siberian railroads, alongside critical oil investments. These assets, crucial to a revitalization of the Russian economy after the fall of the USSR, would be severely damaged by renewed hostilities between the North and South. However, this relationship doesn't involve any sort of military alliance. The Russian government has shown no sign of supporting North "Best" Korea in the event of war, and this is for two ways. First, they lack the military capability to insert themselves into the conflict, the Russian military bear is now akin to a neutered cub. Second, economic damages from involving themselves in the war would exceed those from just staying out of it. While the Trans-korean and Siberian railroads are important, they're not THAT important. As for China, there exists a de facto agreement between the Chinese and the United States that the PLA will stay out of conflict in event of war with the DPRK. The Chinese government, while disliking the idea of losing their precious buffer, isn't attached to the hermit country like the United States is to the South. Moreover, the Chinese people actually influence the foreign policy of the Chinese government quite a bit. Part of the reason the PRC has been so forceful about territorial issues is the overwhelming domestic outcry to reclaim lost or disputed maritime claims. So far, the domestic support of Kim Jong-Un has rapidly declined in the past months. [quote]and are far more developed than many of you seem to think.[/quote] Not really. [quote]I think the UN, and US specifically, needs to stop bullying them around.[/quote] We're not bullying them around, the North Koreans are a blatantly belligerent nation that has threatened war numerous times since the end of the Korean War. Not only have they threatened war, they've also acted in extremely dangerous ways. In 2010, they attacked and sunk a [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ROKS_Cheonan_sinking]Pohang-class corvette[/url], killing 46 sailors. In the same year, they also shelled a [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombardment_of_Yeonpyeong]border island,[/url] killing several South Korean Marines and civilians. In the late 90's, the North Korean government violated Southern territorial soveriegnty when they sent North Korean special forces into the South via submarine. Hell, they STARTED the Korean War in the 1950's when they invaded South Korea. Since then, the U.S. position has been one of defense for our Southern allies. If anyone is a bully it's the North. [quote]The US has nukes. The US doesn't like what North Korea is doing.[/quote] No derp. [quote]North Korea doesn't (or didn't) have the ability to defend themselves against the US.p .. and the US wanted it to stay that way forever.[/quote] I for one don't want a hostile, unstable regime to have even more weapons. I can't imagine what the Japanese and South Korean governments must think about all of this. [quote]Them telling other nations they aren't allowed to develop their own nuclear capabilities is just away for them to stay on top, unchallenged by the rest of the world, able to control things atop their golden pedestals. It's blatant hypocrisy that will ultimately be the cause of WWIII.[/quote] That's stupid, superpowers like America want the world to remain as non-proliferated as possible to prevent an accidental nuclear war from occurring. No one has a RIGHT to weapons that threaten the very integrity of global security with existential destruction. This is something that was established with the creation of the United Nations, and everyone who is apart of this organization, (including North Korea and Iran), agreed to this idea when they joined.
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[quote]Not really.[/quote] To say North Korea isn't a technologically advanced nation is ignorant. They're also equal to South Korea in terms of military might, if not greater because South Korea has chosen to be fairly reliant on the US instead of increasing their own military power. They just aren't an open nation that we can read about daily in the news or on the internet. [quote]We're not bullying them around[/quote]We're telling them what they can and cannot do, despite them being a sovereign nation half way across the world. We've invaded Iraq because our president had personal issues with the nation and we've pretty much made Afghanistan even more unstable than it used to be because of our own incompetence. The US thinks it needs to police the world, imposing its own ideals and beliefs on other nations "just cause" it's the right thing to do. Honestly, we're not the nation to be talking. Remember the Bay of Pigs? Or atomic bombs we dropped on the Japanese, killing innocent civilians? Or the raid on Osama Bin Laden, when we violated Pakistan's sovereignty? The UN shouldn't be talking either. They've killed countless civilians with botched missile strikes and have refused to take responsibility for it. [quote]I for one don't want a hostile, unstable regime to have even more weapons. I can't imagine what the Japanese and South Korean governments must think about all of this.[/quote] The US is enough of a hostile, unstable regime that half the world hates it. [quote]That's stupid, superpowers like America want the world to remain as non-proliferated as possible to prevent an accidental nuclear war from occurring. No one has a RIGHT to weapons that threaten the very integrity of global security with existential destruction. This is something that was established with the creation of the United Nations, and everyone who is apart of this organization, (including North Korea and Iran), agreed to this idea when they joined.[/quote]No one has a right to weapons that threaten the very integrity of global security with existential destruction, but none of the superpowers want to get rid of those weapons either. They're also actively developing newer weapons that could potentially result in the same exact thing. Countries like North Korea don't have the resources to do the same, so nuclear weapons are the only viable deterrent they're able to achieve. The superpowers control the world with no checks against their own power or influence, so what else do you expect nations like North Korea to do? Sit back and watch? Yeah, yeah, agreements with the UN, blah blah blah. Remember the League of Nations?
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Edited by Diplomat: 3/24/2013 6:41:41 PM[quote][quote]Not really.[/quote] To say North Korea isn't a technologically advanced nation is ignorant.[/quote] [url=http://www.nationsencyclopedia.com/economies/Asia-and-the-Pacific/Korea-North-INFRASTRUCTURE-POWER-AND-COMMUNICATIONS.html]Lack of infrastructure[/url] [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_North_Korea]Horrible economy[/url] [url=http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/18/world/asia/north-korean-satellite.html]Failed satellite launch[/url] [quote]They're also equal to South Korea in terms of military might, if not greater because South Korea has chosen to be fairly reliant on the US instead of increasing their own military power.[/quote] I guess you could argue that, while their logistical, air, and naval assets are severely behind in comparison to South Korea, their sheer amount of dug in forces and artillery is enough to hold off any South Korean advance without U.S. help. It would take YEARS for the South Korean military to win unilaterally. [quote]They just aren't an open nation that we can read about daily in the news or on the internet.[/quote] You are correct, which is one of the reasons why their actions are so hard to predict. However, there has been limited access to the country by outsiders. There was a good Nat Geo documentary about life inside the North. Basically, a CNN reporter snuck in a camera when she accompanied an eye doctor to the country. Horrible stuff, there. [quote]We're telling them what they can and cannot do, despite them being a sovereign nation half way across the world.[/quote] So? Sovereignty only goes so far, and when you are committing massive human rights violations, and ignoring other nation's sovereignty (see my last post), then you effectively lose all rights given to you. Christopher Hitchens (R.I.P.) has a very good article about this, too bad I can't find it. [quote]We've invaded Iraq because our president had personal issues with the nation[/quote] Source? [quote]and we've pretty much made Afghanistan even more unstable than it used to be because of our own incompetence.[/quote] Source? [quote]The US thinks it needs to police the world, imposing its own ideals and beliefs on other nations "just cause" it's the right thing to do.[/quote] Yes, but why is that wrong? If a nation is doing something bad, especially if it conflicts with our interests, why shouldn't we do something about it? [quote]Honestly, we're not the nation to be talking.[/quote] Yes we are. [quote]Remember the Bay of Pigs?[/quote] I don't see anything wrong with the Bay of Pigs. [quote]Or atomic bombs we dropped on the Japanese, killing innocent civilians?[/quote] So? [quote]Or the raid on Osama Bin Laden, when we violated Pakistan's sovereignty?[/quote] So? I don't care about another nation's sovereignty when their housing an enemy combatant. [quote]The UN shouldn't be talking either. They've killed countless civilians with botched missile strikes and have refused to take responsibility for it.[/quote] Source? [quote]The US is enough of a hostile, unstable regime that half the world hates it.[/quote] Source? [quote]No one has a right to weapons that threaten the very integrity of global security with existential destruction,[/quote] Yes they do, provided they are responsible enough and have proper safeguards in place. I don't mind Russia, China, France, the U.S., the United Kingdom, etc. from having those weapons. Primarily because it's idealistic for them to get rid of them, thusly, I'm more concerned with preventing unstable or violent nations from getting these weapons. Simply put: Russia doesn't use it's nuclear force as mask to conduct unwarranted attacks on other countries, while North Korea would. It gives them more leverage on the negotiating tables, and therefore more room to conduct attacks on South Korea. [quote]but none of the superpowers want to get rid of those weapons either.[/quote] So? [quote]They're also actively developing newer weapons that could potentially result in the same exact thing.[/quote] Source? [quote]Countries like North Korea don't have the resources to do the same, so nuclear weapons are the only viable deterrent they're able to achieve.[/quote] I don't want them to achieve that deterrent, because it gives them the ability to act even more violent against South Korea. [quote]The superpowers control the world with no checks against their own power or influence, so what else do you expect nations like North Korea to do? Sit back and watch?[/quote] You're making North Korea out to be the good guys, here. [quote]Yeah, yeah, agreements with the UN, blah blah blah. Remember the League of Nations?[/quote] Yes, and they failed because they didn't do their job--to enforce international law. You're criticizing the U.S. and U.N. for actually upholding these various laws and regulations. That makes no sense. Again, sovereignty doesn't give you a pass to do what ever you want; it's easily revoked under certain circumstances. These circumstances include, but are not limited to: hosting terrorist organizations, removing or ignoring another nation's sovereignty without cause, human rights violations, etc. Effectively, repeatedly doing those things allows for another nation to go in and stop you. It's just up to the individual nation to decide if they are to do that (in other words, if they decide that it benefits them to do so). You made an illogical, unsourced argument. Please try again.
