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4/18/2023 8:31:48 AM
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Feedback on , warlock subclass balance and glaives pre-mid season patch

Much of this feedback has stemmed from my own musings over current gamepay balance prompted by seeing some of the community responses following lightfall. In general I think the subclasses are in a reasonable place in terms of gameplay feel and fun factor with the armour and subclass changes over the past year. In terms of general game difficulty build potency is perhaps a touch too high - personally I really enjoyed the difficulty spikes introduced with lightfall and felt reasonably challenged but not to the extent I felt my playing experience was anything beyond casual. With an overall push in the sandbox toward more conscious build decisions with subclass choice, ability selection, exotic selection and the armour mod system being central pillars of this process I feel the updates to the system have really set up an ability landscape that has set foundational rules. Coming from a background playing mmorpgs is something I really enjoy and engaging with. That said, I think the system needs some standardisations with how the different pillars interact, with my key issues being the following: -[b]In game benefits on an ability level basis are poorly communicated.[/b] While cost (in terms of cooldown) is somewhat confusingly labelled for individual abilities standardised metrics for ability damage are not presented. For new players, there is an accessibility barrier when no information (e.g. standardised damage, area, duration etc.) is presented to allow them to make conscious choices in build design. -[b]The cost/benefit relationship across most abilities is not intuitive.[/b] Not all grenades are going to be equally comparable. With that said, an individual players choice is going to boil down to what is the cooldown of the ability (cost) and how much damage is it doing (benefit) with the intuitive assumption that cost α benefit. When cost is the only metric provided, players rely on this assumption for assessing ability worth but for the most part these values seem arbitrary when comparing abilities with similar functionality. As an example, magnetic and fusion grenades both function as primarily single target grenades with a high degree of magnetism, and have a small amount of splash damage. When looking at damage, magnetic grenades deal around 15% more damage than fusion grenades and yet are priced with a 45% greater base cooldown. These cooldowns make less sense when considering more disparate abilities like melees – does ball lightning really warrant a cooldown almost 25% longer than thunderclap given the damage potential of either? Arguments could be made that cooldowns also account for additional interactions but given these are often accounted for by various aspects/exotic descriptions for consistency the individual cooldown should reflect the base capability of the ability. Collectively this non-linear correlation between cost/benefit for abilities is a big driver for why many abilities can feel underwhelming to both new and experienced guardians alike. -[b]The cost/benefit relationship across most aspects is not intuitive.[/b] Similar to abilities, the costing of many aspects relative to effect strength is often unintuitive. While I think having a variety of costs can create space for meaningful build decisions, I do feel current costings aren’t intuitively aligned with aspect strength as individual aspects are more often balanced by effect strength, synergies, internal timers, etc. The best examples for me are those aspects granting slide activated alternate melees. Consecration as a gold standard offers great gameplay feel, lots of potential synergy to specific fragments, internal synergy with other aspects and feels adequately priced against other aspects available to solar titans. Tempest strike and lightning surge in comparison offer poorer gameplay outcomes (beyond some cheesy pvp shenanigans), poorer fragment synergies and yet are all costed the same. Tempest strike comes with an added fixed cooldown. Similar parallels can be drawn with those aspects that alter grenade functionality with the cost of chaos accelerant being a prominent example. Again, this unintuitive balance between aspect strength, cost and other balancing metrics I feel contributes a large part to how certain aspects are received and general gameplay feel. -[b]Armour system could use an option for generating orbs from generic ability damage not attributed to melees/grenades[/b]. While previously these damage sources were derived from niche interactions, or were covered by other mods, the introduction of strand has brought these damage sources more into the limelight. Such a mod would alleviate some of the pain points experienced by stasis and strand users (warlock specifically, but presumably this would also apply to kills generated using drengrs lash) as well as opening synergy with specific exotics like khepri's horn, bombadiers etc.

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  • Can I ask, who cares about your feedback. I don’t. And anyway, who has the time to read this book you have written. Just Cba.

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    • Glaives: Since their inception I have been a massive fan of glaive gameplay. With ~50k kills on my enigma and an average of 5-10k on the others, glaives are a staple of my loadouts because of the utility they provide in higher end content. More than that, I love the playstyle and power fantasy. All that said, I feel glaives still don’t meet the expectations set out by bungie in a previous twab and exist in a limbo between being treated as a melee or weapon but with none of the interaction space of either. With the current armour changes, glaives melees need a way to feed into orb generation by being classified as uncharged melees, as well as interacting with mods which also trigger of these prompts. Doing so would go a long way to making these weapons feel more integrated into the sandbox. This feeling of limbo also extends to some of the perk interactions - the energy return of pug/demo doesn't make sense when considering the killing potential/reserve size of glaive projectiles relative to something like a sniper or fusion, unless this was originally intended to trigger off of the melee. I’d love to also see some way of getting these melees to also interact conditionally as charged melees as this would further open up the possibility space for these weapons. Since the nerf to the suppressive glaive mod way back in risen I’ve though one possibility for this could be to bring this functionality at the cost of shield energy to create a unique gameplay loop where players have the option to use the shield for either offensive or defensive effects and giving more value to some of the glaive specific perks. I don’t see this idea ever being an intrinsic effect given how the exotic glaives work, but perhaps as a perk option in the future. Vexcalibur: This is an incredibly fun and impactful glaive to use and brings everything you’d expect of an exotic. Its gameplay loop feels very impactful in moment to moment gameplay and it has some nice skill ceiling elements to its functionality (for those enthusiasts, the build up is not tied strictly to shield duration barring an initial activation requirement, and once you have the timing down you can pulse the shield for a consistent amount of overshield to get the loop going or for quick burst heals). It feels so good to use that I actively miss it when returning to regular glaives. The catalysts are a bit mid (the first feels like it has anti-synergy with how quickly the shield drains, and graverobber is overrated on glaives imho) but with the rest of the package this is mild complaint. 9/10 *chef’s kiss Winterbite: My feelings here are conflicted. On the one hand it feels incredibly impactful as a glaive for neutral play and is great fun to use and build around. On the other, its damage potential as a heavy is very inconsistent (compounded with many damage bugs with this weapon despite the previous fix). Fundamentally it functions as a rocket launcher that stacks poorly (sans the bug), has comparably slower delivery, RoF and reload. The melee aspect, while cool on paper, in practise takes too long to proc in a vacuum and is buggy to build into for stasis subclasses due to the freeze immunity window. Would love to see this in the kinetic slot with some tune to the damage profile, but outside that pipedream I feel it could do with a reserves increase to push it more towards the utility/ad clear role where it shines as will making it a choice for total damage in the same space as lmgs for those longer damage windows. Additionally, I would love to see a QoL reduction in the hitbox of the crystal – if I had a dollar for the amount of times I’ve blown myself up after hitting an ally or piece of terrain in my periphery I’d be a reasonably wealthy guardian.

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      • Edited by Vordac: 4/18/2023 8:38:40 AM
        Stasis: I feel the stasis warlock kit is in a good place, with the main limitation being that stasis overall does not interact with the new armour mod system as it struggles to make orbs. The new replacement for elemental wells could alleviate this although I feel stasis also needs a way to generate orbs through the fragment system to prevent shard generating aspects becoming mandatory. Tweaks to how shatter damage is coded in line with scorch/ignition could also open the way for better integration. In terms of aspects iceflare, bleakwatchers and the shards aspect are all reasonably competitive options with bleakwatchers being an absolute powerhouse for the subclass, and one of the few aspects I feel could warrant only a single fragment and are only really held in check by the static grenade cooldown. Frostpulse is the only aspect that feels lacklustre. It is [i]kind[/i] of in-line with the other 'cast rift for effect' aspects, but lacks the range and potency that they usually have. Potentially, greater number of pulses over time could build it up or reworking it to become an aoe shockwave which shatters (i.e. the super heavy) which could also with opens potential interactions with wrathweavers to offer an alternative support oriented shadebinder playstyle. Void: Void has always felt cohesive since the 3.0 rework and has some great exotic pairings. Devour is strong and child of the old gods has a lot of character though the mileage of its utility varies. That said, the greater accessibility of devour overall through orbs/breaches makes feed the void feel less like it brings something unique to the warlock kit and more as just an excuse for a second fragment. For this reason I basically never run this aspect as the others simply feel more impactful. Would love to see some additional functionality added to this aspect to help make devour on warlock feel like a bit more special in the way that overshields and invisibility do on titan and hunter. Arc: Despite the general community sentiment, I feel arc warlock has a solid kit that scales very well into endgame and increasingly for me sees use over void in solo legend/gm content. Does it do anything flashy? Certainly not. Do the aspects feel less actively engaging and fresh compared to those on arc hunter and titan? For sure. Are the melees and super fundamentally underwhelming, even when amplified? Absolutely! Even still, arc warlock is one of the best support classes well suited for Destiny’s style of gameplay for its ability to churn out orbs, provide a unique groupwide damage source and offers incredible survivability to rival that of well with a stag pairing with unparalleled uptime. Besides some balance passes to its melees/supers, arc warlock could use some slight adjustments to its aspects. As mentioned, the slide activated melee aspects are generally underwhelming and electrostatic mind feels more like a glorified fragment than an aspect as its secondary effect feels more like a bonus than an actively sought after trigger. Something as simple as granting amplified to nearby allies would help make arc warlock feel more unique and sought after by building into its identity as a support class, promote ally awareness and proper positioning to get the most out of both your own and allies arc buddies (assuming amplified allies would also get the same fire rate increases).

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        • Edited by Vordac: 4/18/2023 8:38:57 AM
          Subclass specific feedback (I’m a warlock main, so this will all pertain to that class): Solar: I’ll preface by stating I have never been a fan of solar warlock. A large part of that is well. As I am fond of saying in my raid group, well is a crutch – nothing in the game explicitly requires well to complete and in general I feel it promotes lazy gameplay and poor engagement with players with gameplay mechanics. Instead of learning how to play out encounters, the solution for dealing with harder content in the lfg space defaults to bring more wells and brute force mechanics which is personally not how I like to play things. It is undeniable how potent and overtuned it is, but that said to simply call for a nerf is ignorant of how impossibly difficult it would be to reign in this super without gutting it completely. Remove the damage component and you don’t really change anything – radiant is too free from torches, bubble/empowering rifts etc. and the major issue is really the healing. Downgrade this to restoration and the super won’t feel like a super, nor will it solve the issue in 90% of content. Remove the healing and you really need to add something unique to make the super feel impactful without reducing sentinel supers to the realm of redundancy. In doing so, you’re going to introduce some power creep unless the effect is restricted. There is an argument for altered encounter design but I also feel this is another oversimplification. The only place where this has been successfully done is rhulk – a literal 2D battlefield against a boss with a limited skillset and a forgiving one shot mechanic done well. As soon as you remove gameplay from this vacuum the sheer potency of well promotes player decisions to exploit encounter design and flaws to abuse well. Nezarac and the Mars BG are perfect examples of this – rather than deal with the encounter the path of least resistance demands strategies with the goal of ‘where can I use well for immortality’. Beyond well, I really think solar warlock and solar in general has some great mechanic design with scorch chaining into ignitions that feels rewarding to execute on. Recent additions to the kit to build on this strategy have been a major contributor to this. While I'd like to see a return of support warlock like a healing turret I don't see this being impactful and you can kind of do it better with healing grenades. The teamwide effect of ember of torches is still a little too free and largely invalidates some of the more nuanced build choices (esp. on hunter). Solar warlock in general also does exotic pairings well. Starfire protocol (while perhaps a little too strong although but then well is a major contributor to its dominance) has a really engaging loop with a reasonable skill ceiling to execute on using rifts alone. Sunbracers is incredibly fun to use and again has a good skill ceiling that really plays into working the scorch/ignition loop. A positive consequence of this is it promotes player engagement and learning if you want to scale it into endgame to successfully activate the trigger. Dawn chorus also has a tonne of potential with the recent changes as well as with a future buff is the leaks are to be believed. Strand: Broodweaver is incredibly fun to use and is a success from the perspective of incentivising high apm gameplay. The super feels impactful, the melee is a great balance of utility and power and all the grenades really gear themselves to unique gameplay styles. Suspend is probably a little too strong and overshadows many other build options that strand offers, but given its newness I think a nerf to both suspend combatant durations and weavers call durations are reasonable expectations. My one critique would be threadlings themselves don’t feel as impactful in pve (in pvp they feel incredible) mainly because they don’t interact intuitively with the armour mod system. It does allow for some neat exploits (e.g. melee triggered glaive energy, albeit with less consistency to necrotic grips pre-fix) but for the most part it feels frustrating to use in lieu of other options. I would much rather use grapple with its lower cooldown, interactions with the mod system and giving me a built in threadling grenade than consume the threadling grenade for 2 extra threadlings. It is also heavily geared towards strand weapon interactions which are very limited at present.

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        • What about Xur ?

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