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Destiny

Discuss all things Destiny.
Edited by Fort_Max_Station: 7/26/2017 8:24:48 PM
42

How Can We Fight the Vex?

EDIT: This is a [i]lore[/i] question. [i]Please [/i]don't comment just to answer the title by saying we shoot them. First, I'd like to thank foxburton99 for inspiring me to write this piece. You can find his post here: [url]https://www.bungie.net/en/Forums/Post/229432888?sort=0&page=0[/url] I strongly advise you read it first. Now, I want to scratch that itch everyone's afraid of touching: what good is it to fight the Vex? After all, they're a time-traveling hive intellect that can incorporate oodles of possible outcomes, collecting even more data that any unit can tap into. This leads to disturbing questions that Ikora asks from time to time: [quote]Does the world stand as it does because of the Vex?[/quote] Are current events the product of Vex manipulation? On the other hand, if they aren't what's keeping the Vex from wiping us from existence at some distant point in the past? I have a guess that's pretty speculative at best and almost bats**t crazy at worst, but by the time I'm through I hope it makes some sense (Lore people are more than welcome to contradict me if I'm completely wrong). To set up my argument, I want to talk a little about game mechanics (this may seem off-topic, but bear with me). Why can we revive/resurrect? [quote]No no no no no don't reach for that word. There's no 'reason.' That's teleology and teleology will stitch your eyelids shut.[/quote] Let me tell you why: It makes for a bad game if every time you die, you get reset to level 0 and your progress is erased. That's arcade gaming. Modern gaming uses a checkpoint system, where progress and experience is saved up to a certain point, and if you die past that point you only get reset back to that checkpoint. It's a modern gaming convention. What does that have to do with Destiny? Because the "revive/resurrection" is their in-game way of explaining away inconsequential death. They didn't have to do it; there's plenty of games that use modern conventions without applying lore to it. But here's the thing: they did. Now we have the possibility that gaming conventions/mechanics can actually play a role in lore. Keep this in mind. Now, back to the Vex. And more importantly, to their preferred mode of travel: time. I won't get too theoretical (or nerdy) here, but there are two predominant ideals for the way time behaves. First off, we have the multiverse theory. The number of timelines grows exponentially based on any number of possibilities taking place in their own timeline. It's a cornerstone of science fiction. Moreover, it gives us a sense that personal choice plays a large role in the timestream. Unfortunately, it also means that entire timelines can be annihilated by someone going back and time and altering events. Fourth-dimensionally, history is being constantly created, and destroyed if time travel is ultimately possible. Secondly, we have the deterministic outlook. Call it predestination, call it fate, call it what you will, it ultimately means that events are the way they are and they cannot be changed. You may feel like you made a personal choice, but it wasn't a matter of free will. Your choice and its succeeding consequences were inevitable. This seems unappealing at the very least. Unfortunately, there's significant evidence in physics that that [i]is[/i] how time behaves. To illustrate, imagine history is a book, and each page is a single moment in time. Now draw a line on all the edges. At any given moment, you might think that the black line has a chance to deviate. But when you look at the book as a whole, it can't. Furthermore, any alterations to the timestream are actually essential to the timeline itself. So why are the Vex dangerous? On one hand, a deterministic outlook would either completely rob them of their power over the timestream or make them the ultimate victors, with little to no room in between. On the other hand, a completely choice-based timeline would be too chaotic and infinite for even the Vex to accommodate for...unless they could, again making them severely overpowered. The best example of their ability is to erase you from existence. And we have records of Guardians being erased from existence...which is actually a paradox in of itself. Strictly speaking, if you were to erase something from 'existence,' you'd never even know it was missing. At the same time, this creates its own paradox: if the being that was erased no longer exists, then they didn't need to be erased in the first place, which means they might not have been erased...you can get a headache just thinking about it. If the Vex can't use time in a logical way corresponding to either of the theories, a new theory has to be drawn, possibly something that puts the two together. Let's say that each timeline is confined to itself, but there are still multiple timelines in existence that the Vex can communicate across to each other. This would explain their vast repository of outcomes while at same time keeping them from changing anything in their resident timeline. Their gates let them transport entities from one timeline into another one, therefor letting them modify it without causing a paradox. People are erased from existence by Vex from a foreign timeline, and missing minds can be replaced by the same one from a timeline where the Vex might already be successful. This could be the source of the Vex's power. But this would also be their weakness, if their enemies were also able to fight them on the fourth-dimensional front and prevent them from intervening or by duplicating successful attacks against the Vex in different timelines. But Guardians can't do this...right? Well...maybe not that we've seen explicitly. But there's evidence to suggest that the Exo Stranger does this very thing. Furthermore, remember our friends the modern gaming conventions? Turns out Destiny features another distinct feature: replay. After a mission/strike/raid is said and done, you're able to play again. There doesn't [i]have[/i] to be an explanation for this, but neither did the revive, game-mechanically-speaking. It's not a stretch to say we go back into another timeline's past to make sure events proceed as they did in our timeline. This would also explain why the Vex haven't defeated us while at the same time making defeat not seem inevitable; Guardians could be fighting across time [i]and [/i]space. As to how Guardians would have access to this capability, that requires more actual lore, in my opinion. The Exo Stranger could tell them how to do it, Osiris reveals his research on Vex gates, or something. It'd have to be written in, just like the revive was written in. At the very least, it gives the story some hope that humanity won't ultimately succumb to the Vex. Any comments/corrections would be welcome and appreciated. Thanks for reading!

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  • [quote]we shoot them[/quote]

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  • Saint made some amazing replies. Awesome job. One thing I wanted to bring up is the timelines. I do believe they are the simulations of timelines. Not actual real timelines. They run the simulations to find a end solution for every scenario. Reread the Ghost Fragment Vex cards. http://www.ishtar-collective.net/cards/ghost-fragment-vex?highlight=Simulation+ Hi-fidelity simulations of possibilities. Having infinite timelines means the Vex have an infinite amount of planets to take over, which according to Oryx only a galaxy worth of planets is needing for the Vex to simulate paracausal powers. So technically the Vex would have unlimited resources and manpower and could escape the Darkness by finding the one timeline the Hive never escaped the Fundament and live there. I think the game did a bad job of reiterating that the timelines referenced are simulations. They do it sometimes but clearly not enough to keep the players from getting confused.

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    • No TL;DR? Huh okay I'll just give you my best answer without reading because it's midnight but I have an answer. We died so our timeline ends but the light is used to resurrect us thus creating a new timeline that is an anomaly in the space-time continuum. Because of this the vex can't predict what we will do because they use logic and pre-existing fundamental laws to determine the future. Now since they can't predict our actions they have to fight us on equal terms or in reality we have the upper hand because they are also losing the war on mars to the cabal. Now wether or not this is intentional or not is yet to be (and will most likely never be) revealed. Or Space magic and light because plot armor is stronger then logic.

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    • Your problem with your view of the Vex is a common one. The thing is the Vex deal far less in time-travel and far more in travel between timelines. In fact, the only time we see any evidence of actual time travel is in the Black Garden and The Vault of Glass, two exceedingly unique scenarios not representative of the Collective as a whole. Both projects reflect experimentation with powers not Vex, or at least not originally Vex. Both deal with observations and data gathered by Quria, Blade Transform during his war with Oryx. More specifically, Worship Function and Throne Worlds respectively. Now if we accept this and assume that the limited form of time travel we saw is not representative of the whole (and operated in pocket dimensions independent of normal reality anyways) then we can begin to discuss what the Vex are actually trying to do. The answer, as told to us by Praedyth in the Paradox mission and Oryx in the Book of Sorrow is simple, 'An Emperor to All Outcomes.' Meaning, gather all possible data, run uncountably many simulations on every possible scenario that could occur, and then distribute its resources into endless contingencies so no matter what ends up happening they have a solution that ensure if not outright victory, at the very least survival. While that may sound good, here's where it falls apart for them. Destiny's universe is governed by forces other than just physics. Light and Dark are fundamental force of existence in addition to being philosophies and entities. Now, while the Vex are far beyond us in understanding traditional physics, they're fundamentally incapable of understanding Light or Dark. It's why Oryx spent the last couple million years slaughtering them and the only reason they still exist at all is because Oryx didn't care enough to finding then off. And in all that time they never found a single scenario in which they beat him, and that was using an incomplete version of Oryx that is much weaker than actual Oryx in their simulations. They can't simulate or predict him because of how close Darkness is bound to his being. He is beyond their comprehension, and guardians, as beings of Light, are too. See, while the Vex seem intimidating, the simple fact is they're nothing in the grand scale. Are they a threat to us? Absolutely. In fact, they're one of the biggest threats to us. That's because we're small, mortal, and can still be crushed by simple overwhelming force. But we are simply champions of Light, not Light Itself. Light and Dark can't be defeated as they're far beyond them. Conscious entities so powerful they're simultaneously philosophies and fundamental governing laws of existence. The Vex are seeking a 'third way' in a universe that says no such way exists. They reject both sides, but both sides are beyond them. There is no defeating Darkness without Light. The Vex's only hope of long term survival is victory for the Light, and whoever champions the Light letting them stick around.

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      • Maybe there is some way to access a conflict in the vault of glass that keeps all beings within that timeline bound to it forever unless the guardian removes themselves. So if you would enter, the vex would try to stop you so you kill the permanently in there.

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      • *reads everything intently, munching on popcorn* 😌

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      • I like your theory! I personally believe that the vex can't travel further back than their point of origin, because you cant exist before you exist and are observed existing. If that point is not before humanity, then the events that lead to our current moment in time, cant be prevented by the vex.

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        • Want to know why? - Dr. Shim proved they lose in multiple timelines, much more than they win. - The vex believe everything has a beginning and an end, and they know theirs is coming. (Can't be more specific on what end that is, but that what is stated) - I'd rather vex have control of all of that, vs any other gaining time travel. Look at what Skolas nearly accomplished

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        • Mop up all their vex milk with guardian cookies. No brainer.

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          • The multi-dimension/multiverse concept is the solution. If the vex traverse time as you claim, then they have created their own central line of existence. Their line consists of all time lines, so they will forever be locked in a constant struggle of war and conquest because their existence intersects all time lines and all dimensions. A victory in one time line requires that those forces then join the forces of another time line to gain victory there, and so on. This loop is the key to vex destruction. With each action and shift of forces between time lines, they create another. Eventually, a line will result in the defeat of the vex. This may take infinite lines to occur, but the vex create infinite lines as a biproduct of their endless conquest. Once a line results in vex defeat, their fate is sealed. The vex forces in that line won't be transferred out to assist the next, resulting in the next line not having the forces needed to obtain victory. As more lines become lost to the vex, they will have to transfer forces from the lines they've already claimed, and eventually from the source of vex control itself. In a weakened state, it would only take the opposing forces of a single time line to defeat the vex, but it's possible that all the forces from all the failed vex time lines could converge on the vex source at once. The vex draw closer to defeat with each victory they gain. This still accounts for vex strongholds that exist outside the bounds of time. Such locations would be required as command centers and staging areas as the vex move from one line to another. These locations will be where the vex make their last stand, where they will be wiped from existence. The opponents of the vex have no such locations nor do they operate on a central line of existence, so only the vex are truely vulnerable to permanent defeat. Their greatest strength will be their undoing.

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            • A really [b]big[/b] gun

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            • Far far too long did not read also no tldr. I suggest we we find the boiling point of radiolara and evaporate them all.

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            • Shoot em

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            • Edited by Shirtless_Captain_Kirk: 7/26/2017 11:43:05 AM
              You guys way over analyze the Vex. They're literally a straight rip off of the Borg from Star Trek. Literally the only major difference is how they look. Oh and they have "the white" of them Jem Hadar thrown in for good measure.

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              • You can't beat the vex unless you kill their god the gardener, their like a virus, infecting planets, systems and galaxy's. To any race they start of as a small challenge but they learn off of their enemy, they duplicate from one to two and they fight in until your eliminated. By now we would be loss to the vex if us weren't for Rasputin he makes us all immune to the vex simulation buying us time to defeat the vex, he is a wall and the sooner the vex understand why they can't beat us and look for Rasputin, Rasputin may perish and along with us the many races in this world, we must seek Osiris who is considered a god and a legend and along with saint 14 to find and destroy the gardener so they vex can be weakened, their simulations halted and their infection of the universe to understand how all came to be so they may re design the universe or destroy ours to create o e that suits them.

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              • Good read, but the Stranger isn't a guardian. She was not forged in light.

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              • By using your controller to fire weapons and use abilities...

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              • Guns.

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              • One round at a time...Lock n Load.

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              • They can teleport anywhere in space and time instantly- 'One foot forward and one second later'

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              • TLDR: Because we like shooting/blowing shit up!!!

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              • The vex get too complex really quickly if you sit and think on it too long. If the vex were truly as capable of controlling time as some lore would indicate, destiny would be very boring. Basically create your character then followed by a screen saying you lose, because they erased you from time before you existed. This is a common issue whenever paradoxes and time travel is a core concept. For me, I try to keep the explanation simple. The vex have lost, they just don't know it yet. If they had at any point in any timeline won, they'd instantly win the rest. But we are still here fighting them. The vex cannot and will not decipher the light nor the dark. They cannot win.

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              • 1
                Hi Im Swat
                Hi Im Swat

                Bungie fan, here since 2008. - old

                Pulling the right trigger. You're welcome.

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              • Look through the lore for paracausal weapons/powers. I believe it's discussed in the books of sorrow. Basically the travelers power can change the state of the universe simply through will. There are no physics involved, it's just essentially the power to decide ones own destiny. That is not to say the powers are limitless, but it is how we entered the vault and killed Atheon.

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              • I've just been shooting them all this time without giving it much thought.

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              • Same way we do everything shoot them simple really.

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