{{
`${userDetail.user.displayName}${userDetail.user.cachedBungieGlobalDisplayNameCode ? `#${standardizeBungieGlobalCode(userDetail.user.cachedBungieGlobalDisplayNameCode)}` : ""}`}}
{{getUserClans()}}
4/18/2017 5:38:52 AM
40
I always play as the good guys in games, so I was forced to go Stormcloak.
English
-
Did you forget what I told you? They can't be "the good guys" as a fact. They're good guys in your eyes, but bad in other people's eyes. It can't be a fact, only an opinion. Just know that.
-
I've already discussed this with another user. [quote][quote]"Good" is subjective.[/quote]Only in the sense that some people honestly see no problem with murdering innocent people. But by generally accepted human morality in modern society, the Stormcloaks are the good guys. And I'm OK with that. Bethesda tried to make it a grey choice and I get that- but they really tipped it to one side.[/quote]
-
Well, I'd tell you why that's wrong, but, I'm not in the mood to argue. Have a nice day or something.
-
[quote]Well, I'd tell you why that's wrong, but, I'm not in the mood to argue.[/quote]K. [quote] Have a nice day or something.[/quote]You too.
-
Edited by Doctor Electric: 4/19/2017 6:27:32 AMBy overthrowing the Empire in Skyrim, the Stormcloaks unwittingly make it easier for the Thalmor to assume control over Skyrim. Need proof? Read the Thalmor manifests on Ulfric Stormcloak, says it right there that he is an unwitting pawn in what is essentially war games for the Thalmor. But Skyrim is for the Nords, so whatever. [spoiler]Honestly though, -blam!- both sides, put me in whatever army the Argonians of Oblivion were in. Bastards didn't wait for the Daedra to pour out if the gates, they -blam!-ing ran [i]into[/i] the gates and were still at full enough strength to kick the Dark Elves' ass.[/spoiler]
-
I've commented on this point already. If you actually read the dossier, it does not in fact support the Empire. [quote]I'm very familiar with the Dossier. Many Imperial supporters try to bring that up as a reason, but if you actually read it rather than just cite it, it's completely against your point. The Thalmor want a continued war to weaken the Empire as a whole. In that sense, they view the Stormcloaks as an asset because it weakens the Empire. But it is utterly ridiculous if you are implying that the Thalmor wanting a prolonged war in any way means the Stormcloaks are not the good guys. If you argument comes from the view of 'whatever side hurts the Thalmor most is the good side,' the Dossier is not by any means a support of that. The Thalmor are aware of the fact that they could not overtake an independent, fully forced Skyrim. Hence why they also do not want a Stormcloak victory. The Dossier is a support to the argument of picking A side, not picking ONE side. It's also worth noting that the Thalmor wanting a war in no way mitigates the righteousness of the Stormcloak cause: To guarantee religious freedom for their people. Again, a pretty objectively 'good guy' reason to rebel.[/quote]
-
Calling the Stormcloaks good is just as inaccurate as calling the Imperials good.
-
[quote]Calling the Stormcloaks good is just as inaccurate as calling the Imperials good.[/quote]It really isn't, though.
-
But it is.
-
[quote]But it is.[/quote]How?
-
"Good" is subjective. I do prefer Stormcloaks myself, but Imperials aren't really any worse.
-
[quote]"Good" is subjective.[/quote]Only in the sense that some people honestly see no problem with murdering innocent people. But by generally accepted human morality in modern society, the Stormcloaks are the good guys. And I'm OK with that. Bethesda tried to make it a grey choice and I get that- but they really tipped it to one side.
-
"Ugh, I hate it when you're right, you get this look on your face, and-yep. That's it." -Amethyst
-
Edited by KornDon: 4/18/2017 6:34:51 PMBased in their own capital, Windhelm, you can see how the Nords don't tolerate the elves that live there. The Empire is not racist, the Thalmor on the other hand are. The Empire is simply doing what it can to survive a lost war. Even the Jarl of Solitude, and her court, recognize that they can still worship Talos. It can be assumed that many other Nords feel this way.
-
[quote]Based in their own capital, Windhelm, you can see how the Nords don't tolerate the elves that live there.[/quote]Incorrect. Based on Windhelm, you can see that those Elves ARE tolerated. Tolerated, rather than executed or imprisoned for their beliefs as the Stormcloaks are. [quote] The Empire is not racist, the Thalmor on the other hand are. The Empire is simply doing what it can to survive a lost war.[/quote]Because caring more about maintaining your land than the lives and freedom of your people makes it OK? [quote] Even the Jarl of Solitude, and her court, recognize that they can still worship Talos. It can be assumed that many other Nords feel this way.[/quote]She wants people to be able to freely, sure. Many people in the Empire probably do. But the issue is... so what? Who cares what they 'wish' would happen? They are actively oppressing that possibility and killing / imprisoning people for their religious beliefs. In the face of those facts, what they 'want' doesn't really matter.
-
They executed storm cloaks who are war criminals, when has the Empire executed someone for believing in Talos? Also the elves in Windhelm, are tolerated but that's it. They are treated unfairly, as well as being accused of being spies for the Empire. That's racism. And the Empire did the right thing, either the populace would have been killed, or imprisoned, or sold as slaves, and the worship of Talos would have been outlawed. Instead only open worship of Talos was outlawed, that seems like the ideal choice.
-
[quote]They executed storm cloaks who are war criminals, [/quote]Stormcloaks are not 'war criminals.' I don't think you understand what that term means. [quote]when has the Empire executed someone for believing in Talos?[/quote]http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Shrine_of_Talos_Massacre And please, go ahead and say 'but that is the Thalmor and the Empire hates them!' I love when people do that, as if letting someone go around murdering people for their religious beliefs is somehow OK because you want to keep all the land you own. [quote] Also the elves in Windhelm, are tolerated but that's it. [/quote]Tolerated was your word, remember. Don't try to downplay it when it works against you. And yes, they were tolerated. As opposed to murdered or imprisoned, as the Empire is prone to do. [quote]They are treated unfairly, as well as being accused of being spies for the Empire. That's racism.[/quote]If you are an Elf or any other race, you are warming welcomes into the Stormcloaks once you show you support them. When a race goes around murdering and imprisoning your friends and family for their religious beliefs and you see other people of that race not condemning that? I find it pretty silly that you would call that racism and not caution. Again, regardless of your race you are accepted into the Stormcloaks once you show your support. Not that crazy to distrust people that are very likely out to harm you and your people. [quote] And the Empire did the right thing, either the populace would have been killed, or imprisoned, or sold as slaves, and the worship of Talos would have been outlawed. [/quote] There is precious little reason to believe that. and even if you do, that's not a reaosn in any way, shape, or form to oppose an independent Skyrim. Skyrim doesn't have those fears. You are arguing for a past decision. Not for the current battle. You're losing the point. [quote]Instead only open worship of Talos was outlawed, that seems like the ideal choice.[/quote]No. All Talos worship was outlawed. That people are only imprisoned and/or executed when they are caught does not change that.
-
Edited by KornDon: 4/19/2017 6:17:14 AMTrue, it was a poor choice of words on my part. But the Empire was trying to make a statement that it wouldn't tolerate "Rebellion" or treason for that matter. As for the Thalmor, yes they do hate Talos worship, the Empire may not condone the killings, but they aren't exactly in a situation to do much about it. Also, the Thalmor are not part of the Empire. So I don't see your point. Also, who is going to stop you from worshipping Talos in your own house? Open Talos worship is all they can control.
-
[quote] As for the Thalmor, yes they do hate Talos worship, the Empire may not condone the killings, but they aren't exactly in a situation to do much about it.[/quote]The Stormcloaks are in that position, though. Imagine if China invaded the US, and our Government couldn't defend its people when they were being taken off the streets and executed because China was just too damn good. Would you support the US government's laws preventing the citizens from having an armed response? If the Government cannot take care of its people and those peoples' lives are in danger, then what purpose does the Government serve? I imagine you'd be for the citizen, letting them break free of the laws of the established Government in order to save the lives of themselves and their friends / families. Now imagine if those citizens came together and became a force actually capable of driving off the invaders. Would you call for them to disband simply because they weren't sanctioned by the US Government? It just doesn't make much moral sense. [quote]Also, the Thalmor are not part of the Empire. So I don't see your point.[/quote][quote]And please, go ahead and say 'but that is the Thalmor and the Empire hates them!' I love when people do that, as if letting someone go around murdering people for their religious beliefs is somehow OK because you want to keep all the land you own.[/quote] [quote] Also, who is going to stop you from worshipping Talos in your own house? Open Talos worship is all they can control.[/quote]So it's OK to murder and imprison people for their religious beliefs as long as you aren't omnipotent and can't monitor every second of every citizens' lives? That's pretty silly to me.
-
Lol, storm cloaks aren't good guys. They're actually making Skyrim worse in the end.
-
[quote]Lol, storm cloaks aren't good guys. They're actually making Skyrim worse in the end.[/quote]Not at all.
-
Really, because starting a civil war right after another war ended is always a good idea.
-
[quote]Really, because starting a civil war right after another war ended is always a good idea.[/quote]You say that as if fighting against a Government that legalizes your murder / imprisonment for your religious beliefs is somehow the morally bad choice simply because you grow faint at the thought of the word 'war.' Do you also condemn the U.S. for fighting in WWII after being bombed because they only just got out of a war 20 years earlier? It's just a ridiculous standard.
-
[quote]just got out of a war 20 years earlier?[/quote] 1. It wasn't a civil war 2. It was a 20 year gap 3. Also, I can support my religion without shouting like a madman in public. I'm looking at you Heimskr.
-
[quote][quote]just got out of a war 20 years earlier?[/quote] 1. It wasn't a civil war 2. It was a 20 year gap 3. Also, I can support my religion without shouting like a madman in public. I'm looking at you Heimskr.[/quote] 1. Completely and utterly irrelevant. 2. See #1. 3. Good for you. But you can if you want. You are literally arguing that it is Okay to murder and imprison people for their religions as long as you don't lose any land you own. And that's immoral in oh so many ways.
