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Edited by c4sch2: 8/7/2014 4:24:41 PM
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Some guy at NeoGAF did the best defence of the no-MM policy of Raids

Here is the original post: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=123586157&postcount=1937 "I think some people need to take a step back here. There is nothing inherently wrong with having content in a game made for a specific kind of player, nor is it inherently wrong that that content is only accessible to the kind of player it is intended for. Bungie has made it clear that this Raid will be a hard, multi-hour event that requires communication and planning, and you might want to spread it out over multiple sessions. You will want to do that with a group of people dedicated to finishing the Raid; you don't want to do that with randoms, who may or may not have headsets, may or may not be willing to communicate, may or may not speak your language, may or may not have just jumped into the Raid to 'see what it is' with no intention of finishing it, may or may not be there intent on trolling the rest of you, may or may not just completely suck, may or may not simply drop out mid-game, etc. Maybe you want to play the Raid for two hours, but two of the others drop out after just one hour, how will you manage that? Not all content needs to be available to all players of all levels. If you are not willing or able to invest in getting a group of six people together ( and while there are things in Bungie's current way of doing this that need to be streamlined, that process of finding a group is nowhere near the massive undertaking some of you make it out to be ), then the Raid, from what we know of it at this moment, is simply not for you. That's fine. That's not elitism or not wanting you to play that content, it's just that that content was designed with another type of player in mind and matchmaking just wouldn't be a good fit for this specific kind of content. There are just so many frustrations that potentially arise from this type of content and matchmaking. You get matchmade with five other players that also use Arc-weapons? Good luck against this Arc-resistant boss! Oh, wait, Timmy has got to go for dinner, now you're down to five. Watch out John, there's a massive horde of enemies about to overwhelm you! Oh, well, John doesn't use his headset and can't hear us anyway. No, Emile, [i]je ne parle pas français[/i]. And on the technical side of things; how would the checkpoints even work? You get to a certain checkpoint and quit. Two days later, you want to pick up again, but the randoms you worked with earlier have progressed further or aren't online. Now the game would need to matchmake you with people looking for a match at the same time as you at the same checkpoint as you. That might lead to frustratingly long wait times, and all those new players have the chance of triggering one of the above frustrations again. You will need to set up communication again and establish whether they have a different approach than you, what gear they have, etc. That is not the experience Bungie wants you to have. "But Bungie should let us try it out for ourselves!" is also a statement I do not understand being made here. It's not as if Bungie just sat there and suddenly thought "well, let's just throw matchmaking out of the window" for no reason. They probably did not make this decision lightly. They had the Raid play-tested, and made decisions based on that. They are game developers making a game design decision, they have absolutely no obligation to offer you options that they do not deem to fit their game or the content within it. Bungie made this Raid and thus know it's contents better than anyone else. They had it play-tested and made game design decisions based on the information they gathered and the type of player they made the content for, and they are in their right to do so. [b]To be clear, I am in no way against adding matchmaking in some form or another, but the way some of your are demanding it be added to the game out of some misguided principle that all content should be easily accessible to all players, even those it is not intended for, is quite unreasonable. Bungie did not make this decision on a whim and there is nothing inherently wrong with having content designed for a certain type of player.[/b]" EDIT: Let's have a civil argument, please. EDIT2: Added space between paragraphs for readability and made it similar to the original post. Again, while I agree with this, [b]I DID NOT WROTE THIS.[/b]

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  • Need matchmaking

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    • Edited by Nick Peck: 8/7/2014 2:21:04 PM
      "Not all content needs to be available to all players of all levels. If you are not willing or able to invest in getting a group of six people together ( and while there are things in Bungie's current way of doing this that need to be streamlined, that process of finding a group is nowhere near the massive undertaking some of you make it out to be ), then the Raid, from what we know of it at this moment, is simply not for you. That's fine. That's not elitism or not wanting you to play that content, it's just that that content was designed with another type of player in mind and matchmaking just wouldn't be a good fit for this specific kind of content." That is PERFECTLY said right there. Not all content is for everyone, though the whiners will continually cry about it until it gets nerfed so they can play it. I hope Bungie leaves it as is. That persons entire comment was right on the nose and well said.

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      • Edited by Pancakes Mcgee: 8/7/2014 2:20:18 PM
        Here's the big problem: This guy used some well thought out reasoning that makes A LOT of sense. Then he typed it up, clearly expressing his ideas, with little-to-no grammatical mistakes. THEN he posted it on the Internet.

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      • All fine and I agree with the mismatch between the inherently random nature of match making and the mindset needed to play raids. But then Bungie should spend some time thinking how they can put in place a framework that helps players arrange teams of six beforehand without matchmaking. I mean, really, to add insult to injury, the one most natural place where we could setup stuff like that won't be because we can't communicate with each other.. some poster was trying to come up with a body language code to communicate with others to overcome that...... when you need to do that something is not right.

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        • Best argument I've heard against Raid-MM. Kudos to that GAF poster!

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        • Edited by eeTee33: 8/7/2014 2:38:35 PM
          just a shame they didnt spent more time on making a tool that inherit all the options mentioned in the discussions about MM. in that case both parties would be satisfied because those players who wanted full MM could use it and the players who like to enter with their own party could enter it too. and all options that are in between. now many sees it black or white. too bad a missed opportunity. i agree with your arguments and special the last lines: To be clear, I am in no way against adding matchmaking in some form or another, but the way some of your are demanding it be added to the game out of some misguided principle that all content should be easily accessible to all players, even those it is not intended for, is quite unreasonable. Bungie did not make this decision on a whim and there is nothing inherently wrong with having content designed for a certain type of player."

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          • Good post. Well argued with quite a bit of thought put into it.

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          • I disagree with most of it, other than Bungie had considered it. Its not going to hurt anyone other than the random players if they added in match making. So many people want it, just put it in and let them find out for themselves.

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            • This isn't really the BEST argument. Everything he/she said has been said already in the forums. Just another poster desperately going against matchmaking. "Hey look, a long text that is against matchmaking." Post. Ughh, all you guys can do is reiterate stuff, and can't be original.

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            • My question is why people are still bringing this up. Bungie already has said no to MM for raids. I think a lot of people are just mad cause they feel neglected cause there is a part of the game they can't just jump into.

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            • I'm completely fine with this. Its a none issue. You might as well complain you were locked out of the Iron Banner tournament, because you hate MP. [spoiler]You want it, you earn it. Bungie have told you how[/spoiler]

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            • Saying that "If you cant gather a group of friends to do a raid with, then that part of the game is not meant for you" is complete bullshit. Players shouldnt be prevented from playing part of the game just because they cant manage to get 5 other friends online with the same intentions. I am not saying that I want the loot and rewards to be easy to get for everyone, in fact, I dont want that to be the case. I just think that it is going to leave a lot of players disappointed when they cant get "insert_rare_armor_name" because of their lack of free time. Hopefully Bungie makes multiple, equally as challenging ways to obtain gear.

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              • It doesn't matter, you can throw as much reasoning at people as you want, they will still disagree because it doesn't work for them.

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                • Edited by Petraeus: 8/7/2014 2:53:34 PM
                  All I can say is you are 100% wrong and I have raided with randoms many many times.

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                  • Can they print that on the outside of the box Must have playstation plus Must have friends to play some aspects of the game

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                    • Agree 100%

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                    • People are ridiculous. You don't have to have 5 friends. You need 1 friend with 4 friends, 2 friends with some friends each. If you can't communicate well enough to find a group then you will fail. End of story.

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                    • I was on the fence about this. Now I'm leaning towards the friends only raid.

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                      • Edited by BigMajorPhil : 8/7/2014 3:24:22 PM
                        150% agree with that argument.

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                      • Thats a pretty shoddy defence... If you break it down all hes saying is "There are trolls online, matchmaking will probably match you with trolls/undesirable people". Which is absolutely true for any game that requires coop or communication, but it doesnt mean you should abandon a matchmaking system purely because of this. If you want to go in focused and willing to sit through a few hours, thats when you get your friends/clan on and do it privately. But when youre alone, just want some fun, fire up the matchmaking and see which randoms you get paired up with.

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                        • these raids only cater to one player and that's a person who can play several hours a day. i mean wtf, we have jobs, schooling, family, etc. I can already tell there will be more complaining about this even when the game is out. I want matchmaking without a doubt, that way the people who have 5 other friends can already party up before going into the raid, while people who need more people can simply do mm. Even if there is a risk of being with a bad player, idc. I'd rather be able to try raids than not be able to with my tight schedule. I will only have specific days where I can raid for hours long.

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                        • Edited by DEZARATH: 8/7/2014 3:36:07 PM
                          What he doesn't realize is matchmaking isn't about finishing the game. Everything he listed is going to happen. Of course it's going to end in all kinds of failure for Random MatchMaking. Anybody who has a friendlist is going to be able to by-pass the chaos. The underlying reason many of the sane ones who want matchmaking is not getting to the end or a check point. It's forming new friendlists with others interested soley in the same game mode. It's to have a regional pool of players who want to play Raid matchmaking to work with. And when I mean work with... its in the context of finding other Raider who use mics. Yes, you're going to die a lot. But you might get one person who talks. Who wants to Raid. Bam. Friend list invite, joined invite for party chat. Joined firefight team. That guy has made four other friends from MM raids previously. They want to Raid also. Two of them are in Strikes. You look at your current team and the other guys in your remaining party are jumping around and tea bagging each other and dying on purpose. Tower? You chime in. Tower! The other guy responds. Off you two go. Those two other Raiders he knows are in strikes and are on a party chat with him. You get invited to their party chat. Now you get two new friends to add to your list. We got four. One of the guys in Strikes says he has two friends playing the crucible and he'll send an invite because they are down. Fine let's go patrol for a bit till these guys are ready to raid. Fifteen minutes later you have a Raid party. A shaky one, but one nonetheless. Off to the raid you go. You only really know the one guy. Well by the second check point you're all friends. Solid. And you've added five new friends to your list who want to raid. Oh by the way I belong to a clan... You want an invite? All from meeting one guy in a random raid. Now that same scenario can happen in strikes. But the inherit problem is eventually that raid grows old. Strikes grow complacent. No one snaps on mics and it becomes the eventual speed run they always get reduced to. All of them. Every mode becomes basically a speed run. Except perhaps Raids. The one mode that has the best chance of snapping mics on is Raids after the fact when every player has mastered every Nightfall and every Strike. When players have moved on to other games. When new raids start. Those old raids will just grow silent. When they don't have to. Matchmaking can atleast provide those players willing to play the Vault of Glass in 2016 other players willing to match with them. No begging. No harassing clan members to go again. New players can find new players long after the tide has left. Everytime I hit the tower nobody was talking. Strikes. Nobody. I'm part of a clan. That's all I talked to. There's no mechanic to incite new communication between players. Out on patrol. A public event happened. Nothing. I'll be honest I wasn't compelled to turn on my mic either. Farming for XP works against teaming up with other players. My goal is to hit the highest level I can so I'm more focused on team work over getting more XP. I'm more inclined help other players when I'm maxed out. But really they don't want my help because they are trying to max out as well. Other players are competition for xp. So what you really want is for them to leave and just show up for whatever public event happens so you can all dance around silently until its over and reap whatever reward is available later. Unless there is a major change to how communication works in Destiny I can't see my friend list growing much further than what I already have within my region. Something tells me I'm going to end up playing Warframe to make friends who play Destiny over just playing Destiny to make friends in Destiny.

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                        • these raids only cater to one player and that's a person who can play several hours a day. i mean wtf, we have jobs, schooling, family, etc. I can already tell there will be more complaining about this even when the game is out. I want matchmaking without a doubt, that way the people who have 5 other friends can already party up before going into the raid, while people who need more people can simply do mm. Even if there is a risk of being with a bad player, idc. I'd rather be able to try raids than not be able to with my tight schedule. I will only have specific days where I can raid for hours long.

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                          • Why should somebody who doesn't have a good team or enough time get the same rewards I do for grueling through a raid? If you can't put forth the time and effort, you don't deserve what others get. Just like if you don't put forth the time and effort to go to college, you shouldn't make as much money as others (not including those who can't afford it in the first place though).

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                          • Edited by BOBBY digital31: 8/7/2014 3:48:56 PM
                            If anyone here is a EASports NHL veteran, those people understand how matchmaking can absolutely ruin an experience. In all the recent NHL games there is a mode called EASHL in which you can create a club with your friends, each friends takes up a position on your team and then plays other clubs. It takes a lot of teamwork and communication to beat the elite teams, this is especially true in the monthly playoffs. Now to get to my point. For those nhl players who dont have friends or a team, there is a OTP matchmaking mode they can play instead. Unfortunately time after time this mode proves to be such a bad experience that most of the time the games played in this mode end up never finishing and being a total wate of everyone's time. Firstly in the OTP matchmaking pregame it takes forever for people to join because everyone is fighting for their position they want and if they dont get it they sit there in the middle until someone leaves from frustration, and unfortunately no other player can join because he is basically holding up the line, then if he quits anyway everyone in the lobby will beforced to restart the process again. Once everyone gets the position they want the game will launch. This is where the bullshit really happens. The games mostly start to find that one or more of your random teamates are AFK just standing on the ice leaving your team outnumbered and disadvantaged for a period of time almost like a being shorthanded and the other team will destroy yours until he decides he wants to play. Then even when he comes back you may find other players quitting your team because the they didn't want to put up with the bullshit of their teamate just standing there, so now you're left with horrible A.I. taking their place...and the a.i. is the worst. Next you may find that your two defensmen really only wanted to play an offensive position but got stuck with defense and so because of this these players will abandon their duties to defend the opposing team and instead skate in a forward role constantly calling for the puck and getting in the forwards way all game long giving the opposing team free reign to skate into your zone and -blam!- your goaltender. Next you will find that your random goalie teamate is may be a really bad player who cant make a save leaving your team down by 7 or more goals, or he may be a troll and just skate around the ice way out of his crease leaving an open net all game long for the opposing team to have their way with. So in the end all of these poor actions by randoms will cause everyone on your team to quit the game entirely in order to either end the frustration or to salvage whats left of their performance grade that is immensely important for leveling up your skater, hopefully that poor game did not impact it too much, nevermind the time you lost dealing with that garbage, leaving a sour taste in which you may turn off the game altogether and not come back if this happens repeatedly All of these things are avoided in the club matches in which all your friends fill those positions and none of that bullshit occurs

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                          • I've always wondered about making a small group or solo piece of content available simply so people could see the storyline that takes place in the raid. Not the loot aspect. I've been on both sides before. For now stick with no MM and see what happens. It is their vision here after all.

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